My doomed 408 build

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The part number for the heads is different, between the flat tappet or hyd roller springs.

I’m pretty sure the hyd roller spring is either a dual or a dual with damper.
The part number is 60775 (For Hydraulic Roller Cam)60779 (Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam)
Problem with a proper ID via part number that is machined on the head, is that the part number machined on the head is "6077" missing the last digit to see what the head was put together with...
I will double check tonight to see if it is a single spring or a double spring set up.
 
The part number for the heads is different, between the flat tappet or hyd roller springs.

I’m pretty sure the hyd roller spring is either a dual or a dual with damper.
Scary.. I was just looking at that 5 minutes ago LOL. Roller spring is PN 5845 which is single with damper, about a 485 lb/in rate per the numbers. Flat tappets are PN 5767H, single with dampers, about a 325 lb/in rate.

So nothing obviously different besides probably the spring wire and lesser coils length so hard to spot unless you know them by heart.

Those Hughes springs that the OP lists above are a heavier rate than the Edelbrock flat tappet springs..... those Hughes springs are 385-400 lb/in.
 
I take it you didn’t get an invoice with the part number on it?
I bought the heads from eBay with listed part number 6077. They were listed as new unused but out of box. So I have actual zero clue what springs are on there. The builder said he tested them and they will work with what I'm doing. Hence another reason I'm not going back to him.
 
Scary.. I was just looking at that 5 minutes ago LOL. Roller spring is PN 5845 which is single with damper, about a 485 lb/in rate per the numbers. Flat tappets are PN 5767H, single with dampers, about a 325 lb/in rate.

So nothing obviously different besides probably the spring wire and lesser coils length so hard to spot unless you know them by heart.

Those Hughes springs that the OP lists above are a heavier rate than the Edelbrock flat tappet springs..... those Hughes springs are 385-400 lb/in.

I think you’ll find that the 5845 is actually a double with damper spring, I’ve measured them previously and the way they come setup from Edelbrock they have approx 150 lbs seat pressure at about 1.85” installed height
 
I think you’ll find that the 5845 is actually a double with damper spring, I’ve measured them previously and the way they come setup from Edelbrock they have approx 150 lbs seat pressure at about 1.85” installed height
Thank you... you are 100% correct! I looked in the on-line catalog and missed the inner spring. And it makes more sense to be a dual at that rate.

So the OP CAN tell if the springs he now has are for the rollers or not by the presence of the inner spring or not. Thanks again Cal.
 
I take it you didn’t get an invoice with the part number on it?
No I bought them off of ebay. They were new, out of box. The shop that did my build said they were very early production Eddy heads.
 
I drained the fluids on the engine over the week end, I also pulled the intake off to see whats going on. The lifter is broken. The cam is wiped. $2k bucks for nothing. I have listed the part numbers, I will be using. I need to yank the engine and do a complete tear down. There was a huge amount of iron fillings on my drain plug magnet. I am sure that was from the cam getting eaten..... I hope bullet custom engines in Central Point Or. goes bankrupt. I cannot say one good word about them.
 
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I’m sorry about your misfortune, and I believe the root cause of the failure is of no fault of yours.

Either a substandard set of lifters was used, or....... the not-up-to-the-task-of hyd roller-duty valve springs allowed for a loss of valvetrain control, which set up a situation where the cam lobe was able to smack the lifter wheel.
They won’t take very much of that before something breaks.

I don’t know what the lifter link bar situation you have is, but I’d also look closely for witness marks where the link bars were contacting the block, which if happening doesn’t end well.
 
I drained the fluids on the engine over the week end, I also pulled the intake off to see whats going on. The lifter is broken. The cam is wiped. $2k bucks for nothing. I have listed the part numbers, I will be using. I need to yank the engine and do a complete tear down. There was a huge amount of iron fillings on my drain plug magnet. I am sure that was from the cam getting eaten..... I hope bullet custom engines in White city Or. goes bankrupt. I cannot say one good word about them.

Man, that really sucks. Sorry to hear your bad news. Wishing you the best with the rebuild and following along.
 
Man, that really sucks. Sorry to hear your bad news. Wishing you the best with the rebuild and following along.
It wouldn't be so bad but this is the 3rd tear down and rebuild on the engine, and I still haven't been able to go down the strip once going on my 3rd year of working on it.. I also had the same issues with TCI and their crappy drag race trans. Due to it locking up the rear wheels on the 2-3 shift, It had to be sent back twice, and I had to send it to Copes the third time for it to finaly get done right. At least TCI didn't charge me for the rebuilds just freight.
 
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It wouldn't be so bad but this is the 3rd tear down and rebuild on the engine, and I still haven't been able to go down the strip once going on my 3rd year of working on it.. I also had the same issues with TCI and their crappy drag race trans. It had to be sent back twice, and I had to send it to Copes the third time for it to get done right as well. At least TCI didn't charge me for the rebuilds just freight.

Gotta give ya the gold sticker award for sticking to it, holy crap! I've went through a few things with my build but so far, nothing that bad.... so far. I've had it to the dyno twice now after some changes and so far, all seems to be good to go. I'll know more once I get it on the road this Spring.
 
Like I said I have a doomed build I am hoping to save.
My build so far is
Eagle fully forged bottom end. All the machine work needed. No issues.

Top end stock out of the box Edelbrock heads.
comp cams retro hydro roller cam. part #20-603-09
lifters are Howards cams 91764
crane cams adjustable gold rockers

All cylinders ring in right around 190 to 200# calculated 11 to 1 CR by the engine builder.

I have had it built and ran great with a comp cams hyd flat tappet cam, cam lobe wiped after about 100 miles.
Pulled engine, took to machine shop, had them tear down and find the problem. I didn't want to have to deal with a flat cam again so I upgraded to a hyd roller cam.

After they built it again with the roller set up and on the Dyno; cylinder 8 exhaust lifter collapsed. The shop replaced lifter and re-ran on dyno. Sadly lost power due to the slightly smaller cam. Took engine home and installed In my car. I drove the car around about 30 miles and the engine started to miss. I pulled into the driveway and had a nice top end clatter. I have done a compression test, and it is still where it should be. pulled rocker cover off found Number 8 exhaust rocker lose and I believe the lifter has collapsed again.

I talked to the machine shop, and due to it being a race engine there is no warranty. They nicely told me to go pound sand. ( I did pay for the second build as well and now they are done taking my money)

I am out of money for this project and race season is 2 months away.

What do you guys think I should do?
I have to pull the heads to take the lifters out, I spent daymn good money on the roller set up, but I don't want to deal with another collapsed lifter. As it sits If I pull it apart and go as cheap as possible it's still going to cost about $1K for parts.
I want to go solid flat tappet with eddy heads my max valve lift I can go is .570/ The guy at the shop had told me I don't want to go bigger then .540 so I don't wind up with coil bind.
It is my understanding that no matter what I do, I will need to get the springs upgraded. Who actually knows what the springs are. I dont trust the shop guy anymore. (there are other reasons on top of the stated problems)


I am up for suggestions
Sounds like the guy didn't want to change valve springs on the heads or something. I'd go to mild solid roller ".550-.575" before lash, throw k800 spring in it and enjoy the season.
Just don't try and shim the lifters solid, I think you have a spring or clearance issue, so address that 1st.

Call Doug herbert for a billet roller, springs to match be it k800 or comp917 ... then buy a crane coated steel gear for the intermediate shaft and get some Morell roller lifters. There are 4 versions and prices. If you go that way you can get out of this for around 700-900 bucks
 
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Sounds like the guy didn't want to change valve springs on the heads or something. I'd go to mild solid roller ".550-.575" before lash, throw k800 spring in it and enjoy the season.
Just don't try and shim the lifters solid, I think you have a spring or clearance issue, so address that 1st.

Call Doug herbert for a billet roller, springs to match be it k800 or comp917 ... then buy a crane coated steel gear for the intermediate shaft and get some Morell roller lifters. There are 4 versions and prices. If you go that way you can get out of this for around 700-900 bucks
Please expand on 'shim the lifters solid" I am not familiar with this procedure.
Thanks
 
Good plan.

Assuming you’re running 1.5 ratio rockers........
I’d call Competition Products and order:
- Howard’s Cam 711313-08
- Howard’s lifters 91717
- Howard’s springs 98541, or the Kmotion k-800
- if the heads still have the stamped locks, I’d upgrade those to machined locks(Crane 99097-1 to fit the Ede retainers)

You’ll likely end up needing different pushrods.
 
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Gotta give ya the gold sticker award for sticking to it, holy crap! I've went through a few things with my build but so far, nothing that bad.... so far. I've had it to the dyno twice now after some changes and so far, all seems to be good to go. I'll know more once I get it on the road this Spring.
this whole scenario just frustrates the crap out of me to read I couldn't imagine that happened to me...
 
I am aware that the eddy springs are different. I do not have the OEM part number other than whats on the heads. They do not have the last digit of the part number to tell if they were set up as a roller or tappet cam. That is the biggest problem so far. I am going to go the way of Hugues engines recommendations and go with a Mechanical flat tappet cam Hughes Engines , EDM light weight lifters Hughes Engines , a set of springs Hughes Engines , Cometic head gaskets, and any thing else I can find should be about another grand total.... Ill have 7 roller lifters and a roller cam for sale shortly...

I have cut open the oil filter and there were no signs of any metal in the element.
Imagine that Hughes recommending a crap load of their parts LOL
Please sorry about the smart ***-ness just this whole thing again frustrates the crap out of me for you..
 
I did this.
All Hughes parts,
Hug1129 dual springs
Hugstl6064as-8 mechanical cam
Hug5012 cool face edm lifters
Gasket set
8 qts of their break in oil.
And hug5679 pushrod kit

Total shipped 1057.71
 
Pretty big cam compared to the previous two.
I went over my build parts list with Tim @ Hughes.
He figured that I'm actually running closer to 12 to 1 CR. With a bigger Cam I will do two things, get it so I can run pump gas. By lowering the cylnder pressure, And make more power to 6K. I emailed Tim my dyno sheets from the previous 2 builds, and in his opinion I was running out of cam that's why I was maxing power out at 5000 RPM.
I spent quite a bit of time with him over the phone. And I think he is setting me up for what I need over want.
 
IMHO unless you have your heads ported your engine will be done by 5800 or so.

I ran the older version of the cam you have, same duration but less lobe lift, with my 1.6 rockers it was .628/.633". It was in a 10.8-1 408, Curtis Bogs ported closed chamber Edelbrocks that flowed 293 with 2.02" valves. I had 2.055 intakes installed when they were freshened. It was running a port matched Victor 340 with a Bigs 950HP, 727 and 4.10 Dana. In my 3260# 69 Dart it ran 6.58 @ 104 and change in the 1/8 on pump 93 in race trim, in street trim it ran 6.70. It ran the same et shifting 6400 or 6600, after 6600 it started to fall off.

Hughes told me at the time I was running out of head.
 
I did this.
All Hughes parts,
Hug1129 dual springs
Hugstl6064as-8 mechanical cam
Hug5012 cool face edm lifters
Gasket set
8 qts of their break in oil.
And hug5679 pushrod kit

Total shipped 1057.71

Ouch.

FWIW, only cam to ever flatten a lobe on me was Hughes camshaft.

I would never recommend anything made or designed by Dave Hughes.

Best of luck.
 
Ouch.

FWIW, only cam to ever flatten a lobe on me was Hughes camshaft.

I would never recommend anything made or designed by Dave Hughes.

Best of luck.

I've ran two Hughes cams, one hydraulic and one solid. Both showed wear and porosity on the nose of the lobes with probably 3-5000 miles.
 
I was running out of cam that's why I was maxing power out at 5000 RPM.

Or...... you were running out of valve spring.

408 with 63cc heads, zero deck, 5cc pistons, .040 gasket.......about 11.6cr.

In any case, I hope it works out to your satisfaction.
When I was first getting into it many years ago, I did it the way I wanted.
Sometimes it worked out really well, sometimes not so much.
But that’s how you learn.
 
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