j par
Well-hung Member
well that couldn't mean a whole lot but something they charge you for. Obviously they put out an extremely inferior product.
My doomed 408 build
- Thread starter BlooDSMeaR
- Start date
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BlooDSMeaR
Well-Known Member
Yes
BlooDSMeaR
Well-Known Member
Oil psi was @70 cold 60 hot. Yes all oil gally plugs were installed. I was running the break in oil used by the engine builder not sure of the brand but know it was proper break oil. Its a LA block. Yes. I have serched fourms for multiple issues this being one of them. With retro rollers the geometry is very off. The engine was tested for clearance. I was there that day and no cool bond was evident. Both cams were still below lift specs of eddy heads. Just bad luck? Don't know....
RAMM
Well-Known Member
J.Rob
RAMM
Well-Known Member
PRH
Well-Known Member
Was this built to be a bracket race type motor?
I don’t know what the first cam that failed was, but the as supplied springs aren’t suitable for anything hyd roller, other than maybe a stock replacement type cam.
I doubt this had anything to do with the collapsed lifter........ but it would be interesting to know how the conversation went with regards to how the engine would be used....... and then the thought process behind retaining the as supplied springs when the decision was made to swap to the HR cam.
I can’t imagine those little springs would have survived very long trying to maintain control of the now heavier valvetrain with repeated high rpm use.
What was the original cam anyway?
Is the current problem lifter “soft”, or “stuck”?
BlooDSMeaR
Well-Known Member
Yes
BlooDSMeaR
Well-Known Member
Yes, the shop looked at them said they were GTG.
BlooDSMeaR
Well-Known Member
PRH
Well-Known Member
Soft lifter?
I suspect debris in the lifter is the culprit.
If you could get it out without pulling the heads, it wouldn’t be that big of a deal.
But alas, I don’t think you can.
Also, with many hyd roller lifters you can’t get the internals out of the body without grinding the link bar retaining rivet off....... so they’d need to be replaced.
Regardless of what else I did, I’d pull it apart to see if that’s why it was soft.
If there’s debris in it...... that’s not a defective part type of problem.
FWIW, the spring listed for use with the new hyd roller cam has a noticeably higher rate than the Ede springs(as you’d expect with the heavier lifters).
344lbs/in for the Ede, 402lbs/in for the Comp.
I suspect debris in the lifter is the culprit.
If you could get it out without pulling the heads, it wouldn’t be that big of a deal.
But alas, I don’t think you can.
Also, with many hyd roller lifters you can’t get the internals out of the body without grinding the link bar retaining rivet off....... so they’d need to be replaced.
Regardless of what else I did, I’d pull it apart to see if that’s why it was soft.
If there’s debris in it...... that’s not a defective part type of problem.
FWIW, the spring listed for use with the new hyd roller cam has a noticeably higher rate than the Ede springs(as you’d expect with the heavier lifters).
344lbs/in for the Ede, 402lbs/in for the Comp.
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BlooDSMeaR
Well-Known Member
There was a whole lot of management problems with the shop, and the operator was leasing the shop from the actual owner. Hard to explain but the operator of the shop went default to the actual owner. The actual owner got my cam swap mid job, (and didn't get the cash I paid for the job from the operator) and I think he just wanted me put together to get me and my engine out of his shop. When I came in to pick up the engine, he told me no warranty, as he has already lost money on my job.
PRH
Well-Known Member
I remember this story.
Sounds like you have 3 options:
- pay original shop to do it
- pay another shop to do it
- learn how to start doing this kind of work yourself.
Sounds like you have 3 options:
- pay original shop to do it
- pay another shop to do it
- learn how to start doing this kind of work yourself.
BlooDSMeaR
Well-Known Member
My budget is blown. I'll be learning how to do this my self. I don't have the extra funds to go have another shop go to town on it. I'm sure I can do the cam swap myself. Talking to a few paces, and reading a bunch of materials, I know what I need to do. I'm buying an engine stand, and will be pulling it apart in the next few weeks. I have gotten with Tim at Hughes engines and have a parts list on order. I just have to follow the instructions, and do it right the first time.
I feel I will get this past my learning curve. Once I'm done I'll let you guys know how it all went.
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Just my opinion, but I'd keep this thread going and ask questions as you go. There's a lot of smart people on here that will be glad to help out.
When I built my 408 I drove an hour to use a machine shop that specialized in Mopars. We talked several times before I even dropped a part off to them. As I talked to the owner about what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it, he asked how I knew so much about small block strokers. I told him that I'm an early riser and read threads on FABO every morning. He was impressed with my knowledge that I got from this site. I'd suggest you do the same.
j par
Well-hung Member
Well I've already given my best advice and I really hope things turn out well. I'll say it one more time just to clear my conscience. Dealing with people all the way across the country who will never see your engine and be able to put there eyeballs on it and give you some hands on help is not the best Direction in my opinion. I can already see the writing on the wall- "well it's a few thousand miles away so it's hard for me to tell". I sent a friend to PIR to have his Trans Am motor rebuilt and after we broke it in and developed a tick. it was very nice to be able to throw it on my car trailer and drag it over and have Ted look at it and tell us the easy non invasive way to fix it quickly. He surely couldn't tell us what it was over the phone...
j par
Well-hung Member
Oh yeah and a side note that was a 403 Oldsmobile 6. 6 and the year before when we were having it built he had to Bush one of the lifter holes as when they put the in there it dropped in with major Slack! And also that wasn't the problem when we brought it in. Turned out that after we retighten everything down after break in a custom rocker was hitting the cheap valve covers that my customer put on. We doubled the gasket and Presto. it kind of sounded like a knock and we were not going to go any further till in was diagnosed. Doubling up the valve cover gaskets LOL off we went. I know it sounds simple but something like that? Ted has been doing these motors for over 50 years it was obvious. ONCE HE COULD SEE IT AND HEAR IT WITH HIS OWN EYES AND EARS.
This was my first thought as well...the springs that come with the Eddy heads are made for flat tappet lifters. They are not made to handle a much heavier roller lifter. Even mild roller cams like what the OP described would need more spring. I would not go back to that builder again....
PRH
Well-Known Member
Obviously, the cheapest and easiest repair is to pull the one head and just replace the one pair of lifters.
BlooDSMeaR
Well-Known Member
Is that not literally the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again expecting diffrent results?
If I have had 2 lifter failures in the same hole, I feel something is wrong with the lifter hole not the lifter it's self.
I also know I need to change the springs to any new cam I'm going to run. So both heads have to come off Anyway so might as well put the right ones in. I feel the cost cutting has cost me more money over the long run then doing it correctly the first time.
PRH
Well-Known Member
“What I would do”, is pull the one head, pull out the soft lifter, and take it apart and look for foreign material inside.
If it’s got debris in it, then it being soft has nothing to do with the block or the lifter bore, or a defective lifter.
If it’s clean inside....... well, you were going to take the heads off anyway.
If it’s got debris in it, then it being soft has nothing to do with the block or the lifter bore, or a defective lifter.
If it’s clean inside....... well, you were going to take the heads off anyway.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
There are 2 version of springs that you can buy from Edelbrock on their heads setup OOTB: one set for flat tappet and a different set for rollers. They have different assembly PN's for the 2 different spring sets on a given casting. So it depends on what Edelbrock PN was purchased; that hopefully could be found on the original build list. If they originally were for the flat tappets and the rollers were put in with those springs, then, it might well be some valve float or valvetrain resonances going on now.
Back on page 1 it was said that the shop cleaned and re-assembled the engine for the 2nd go-around. But you just don't know if they did a good job of it. I'd assume at this point that they did not. #8 exhaust lifter is the first lifter that the oil reaches after leaving the pump and filter. This MIGHT make it a bit more likely to catch debris as it comes into the oil gallery; or maybe when the engine is off, any debris in that gallery settles into the back end near the #8 exhaust lifter.
I'd be pulling the oil filter first and cutting it open for examination for debris. BTW, don't use the so-called race filters... they have a much more 'open' media that passes lots bigger particles.
BlooDSMeaR
Well-Known Member
I am aware that the eddy springs are different. I do not have the OEM part number other than whats on the heads. They do not have the last digit of the part number to tell if they were set up as a roller or tappet cam. That is the biggest problem so far. I am going to go the way of Hugues engines recommendations and go with a Mechanical flat tappet cam Hughes Engines , EDM light weight lifters Hughes Engines , a set of springs Hughes Engines , Cometic head gaskets, and any thing else I can find should be about another grand total.... Ill have 7 roller lifters and a roller cam for sale shortly...
I have cut open the oil filter and there were no signs of any metal in the element.
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PRH
Well-Known Member
The part number for the heads is different, between the flat tappet or hyd roller springs.
I’m pretty sure the hyd roller spring is either a dual or a dual with damper.
I’m pretty sure the hyd roller spring is either a dual or a dual with damper.
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