340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Mullinax, thanks for the suggestion, where should I apply the wood, on the push rod side?
New Small Block Stroker Engine Noise
- Thread starter 340sFastback
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Mullinax, thanks for the suggestion, where should I apply the wood, on the push rod side?
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
Correct... the rocker let's say is going tap, tap, tap so if you can get it to sound different then you have found the noise location.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Here it is running with the torque converter cover off. The car runs out of gas toward the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx1s3-U9gOE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx1s3-U9gOE
TheCrackHead
Banned
Like I said and I'll add to that as long as you clearanced the windage tray to the rods, It sounds like the lifters fo sho.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
No windage tray is installed, the exhaust does not leak, and its not the torque converter. I need to look more closely at the lifters.
moper
Well-Known Member
With that much noise, I would do mullin's idea with the cover off, and if it doesnt change anything, pull the intake and start visually checking everything. Any chance a link bar is binding or hitting anywhere?
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
I remember the link bars having lots of room to move around down there; I don't think they rubbed the block once in position and I don't think the link bar was close to the top of the lifter bores either.
I just put the order in for some Summit chrome valve covers. When they come in I'll cut the tops off, put them on there, and run it. If a bad lifter can't be found I'll pull the intake and see whats going on in there.
I didn't have time to look through all the post again, but I just fired my 426 stroker a couple weeks ago, and am using the mechanical racepump fuel pump and regulator. I had a distinct ticking noise, after hours of investigating, I shut the motor down and removed the pump. Started again for a few seconds and no noise. I have since narrowed it down to where I have the regulator mounter on the inner fender well. You could have knocked me over with a feather, could not believe that noise came from that. It looks like you are using a mechanical pump. Any way I apologize if this has been mentioned, stranger things have happened, and this is easily checked, good luck.
jivemother33
Well-Known Member
if u r running a mech fuel pump , did u check all that stuff , how about distributor drive gear stuff like that some times its the small stuff that gets ya , i didnt read all the post so if u checked that stuff ok , good luckk
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
I now know its not a lifter. I ran with open valve covers and pushed down on each rocker. No difference in sound. Put stethoscope on each rocker where they pivot and they all sound the same. Shut engine down, put each lifter on the base circle, every one was completely pumped up. I put the stethoscope on the fuel pump and its completely quiet. Here is the latest video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfr3mry8MK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfr3mry8MK8
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
In your video in post #128 the noise clearly gets louder when you get the camera near the oil pan and transmission area.
This might be far out there put if you took the transmission loose and ran the motor then you would know if the noise is in the motor or the noise is in the transmission. When I say transmission I mean the torque converter also. This is however if you absolutely sure it isn't the valve train. If it isn't the valve train or transmission then it has to be in the oil pan. The main reason I say oil pan is because it definitely gets louder when you get near the oil pan with the camera. You've got to get down and dirty to fix it! Something has to come apart.
This might be far out there put if you took the transmission loose and ran the motor then you would know if the noise is in the motor or the noise is in the transmission. When I say transmission I mean the torque converter also. This is however if you absolutely sure it isn't the valve train. If it isn't the valve train or transmission then it has to be in the oil pan. The main reason I say oil pan is because it definitely gets louder when you get near the oil pan with the camera. You've got to get down and dirty to fix it! Something has to come apart.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
The trans, torque converter, flex plate, starter, and bolts were all run without issue on the old 340 that was just pulled. So those parts are all known to be good. I think every video that shows under the car the noise is always louder under the car compared to the top of the car. But the oil pan can act like a drum and amplify a noise coming from inside the engine.
I know all the lifters pump completely up and its not a rocker arm issue so that can be ruled out. I know the retainers don't hit the rockers, the retainers don't bottom out and hit the valve guide, and springs do not coil bind, and the springs are not too stiff for the lifters to deal with. I know the push rods do not hit going through the heads because that was carefully checked and the heads were clearanced during assembly. I also know the lifter link bars had plenty of clearance from the lifter valley and moved very freely.
I know the rods have lots of clearance from the block, the oil pick up is not loose, and rods have lots of clearance from oil pick up tube, all the bearing clearances were checked, I know the piston skirts don't hit the crank throws, I degreed the cam in and checked piston to valve clearance etc. Oil pressure is still very strong, no blue out of the pipes, idles well, it doesn't run hot, revs nice and strong and fast, sounds consistent when listened to by the tail pipes. It appears to be firing strong on all 8.
The engine now has a few hours idling in the garage looking for this problem and the noise has not changed. It hasn't gotten better or worse which I find strange. I don't have a windage tray in there and I put the stethoscope all around the oil pan and you can hear the tapping but its the same amount of noise no matter where you put the probe on the pan.
My thinking is it would be best to pull the engine and look for the problem at this point unless someone has a better suggestion? I do think the problem is inside the engine some where. I think there is a lot right with this engine so if the problem can be found before damage is done I could save a lot of time and money. Yes its a lot of work pulling it and taking it apart but it could be more work if the problem is not solved and a catastrophic failure occurs.
I know all the lifters pump completely up and its not a rocker arm issue so that can be ruled out. I know the retainers don't hit the rockers, the retainers don't bottom out and hit the valve guide, and springs do not coil bind, and the springs are not too stiff for the lifters to deal with. I know the push rods do not hit going through the heads because that was carefully checked and the heads were clearanced during assembly. I also know the lifter link bars had plenty of clearance from the lifter valley and moved very freely.
I know the rods have lots of clearance from the block, the oil pick up is not loose, and rods have lots of clearance from oil pick up tube, all the bearing clearances were checked, I know the piston skirts don't hit the crank throws, I degreed the cam in and checked piston to valve clearance etc. Oil pressure is still very strong, no blue out of the pipes, idles well, it doesn't run hot, revs nice and strong and fast, sounds consistent when listened to by the tail pipes. It appears to be firing strong on all 8.
The engine now has a few hours idling in the garage looking for this problem and the noise has not changed. It hasn't gotten better or worse which I find strange. I don't have a windage tray in there and I put the stethoscope all around the oil pan and you can hear the tapping but its the same amount of noise no matter where you put the probe on the pan.
My thinking is it would be best to pull the engine and look for the problem at this point unless someone has a better suggestion? I do think the problem is inside the engine some where. I think there is a lot right with this engine so if the problem can be found before damage is done I could save a lot of time and money. Yes its a lot of work pulling it and taking it apart but it could be more work if the problem is not solved and a catastrophic failure occurs.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Mullinax, thanks for your suggestion. Its an automatic so it can't be run unless the torque convert is in place for the starter to engage. Its not like a manual trans car where the engine can be started without a trans attached.
ramcharger
Dismember
Damn! That is pronounced. Call me crazy but when I looked at that video, the number 7 EX valve seems to work for a while then stopped working. It could just be a frame rate thing (trick of the camera).
bobscuda67
Well-Known Member
Call the cam manufacture and ask them if the valvetrain noise is normal before you tear it apart. Maybe they can point you in the right direction.
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
Come on in and pull up a chair and help us figure this M..F'N thing out!
Hell I'm trying to crank a motor without a torque converter for crying out loud!! (my last post above) geeezz!
If that is normal I would hate to hear abnormal!
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Oil flows freely and all valves open and close correctly. There is great oil flow to the top of each head. Kind of looks like a little stream flowing to the back of the head and then down the drain hole. I took one rocker shaft off just to inspect, nothing, everything looks perfect. All push rods on that side looked great too. Took out fuel pump, no problems there. Took off intake and inspected everything there. No scoring on the cam, link bars do not rub block, lifters look perfect, no visible problems anywhere. Ran starter with intake off and I could see oil flow and everything moved freely. There is nothing else to check on the top end, the problem is not there for sure.
As far as normal goes, I had a guy over on moparts tell me he runs the same rockers and lifters and they were completely silent. Its a hydraulic roller cam, it should not be making this racket.
Its either in the bottom end or the transmission pump is making all the noise. The list of things to rule out is growing. Time to start yanking it out.
As far as normal goes, I had a guy over on moparts tell me he runs the same rockers and lifters and they were completely silent. Its a hydraulic roller cam, it should not be making this racket.
Its either in the bottom end or the transmission pump is making all the noise. The list of things to rule out is growing. Time to start yanking it out.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Bill I'm not saying it's not possible but I've been rebuilding torqueflites (and other automatics) for over 25 yrs. and I haven't ever heard a front pump make any noise like that. In fact I haven't ever had any front pump make any odd noise and I've taken out some pretty trashed pumps. Even with that said if your going to take the engine out it'd be worth looking at just to rule it out.
BTW: If you do take the engine out and decide to remove the front pump for inspection an easy way to pull it and not disturb any other part of the rotating assy. is to tighten down the front band snug. That'll hold the clutch packs in place so you can easily remove and re-install the pump. Just don't forget to readjust the band after you put it together. Also slather up the reaction rings on the pump with trans. jelly (petroleum jelly works fine too) so they slide back into the clutch pack easy.
On another note I know you allready took the headers off and found problems in that area and had repairs done but have you run your fingers all around the header flanges while it's running to make sure the exhaust leaks are fixed? I've had success doing that. You just have to be careful not to burn your fingers of course.
BTW: If you do take the engine out and decide to remove the front pump for inspection an easy way to pull it and not disturb any other part of the rotating assy. is to tighten down the front band snug. That'll hold the clutch packs in place so you can easily remove and re-install the pump. Just don't forget to readjust the band after you put it together. Also slather up the reaction rings on the pump with trans. jelly (petroleum jelly works fine too) so they slide back into the clutch pack easy.
On another note I know you allready took the headers off and found problems in that area and had repairs done but have you run your fingers all around the header flanges while it's running to make sure the exhaust leaks are fixed? I've had success doing that. You just have to be careful not to burn your fingers of course.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Fishy,
I took one header off the head to remove the torque converter dust shield and it is sealing up really nice. Plus I took one spark plug wire off at a time while running and the noise did not change.
The trans, torque converter, flex plate, all bolts etc were all working correctly when the old 340 was pulled. All those parts are low mileage and have little to no wear. Given those facts and what you have seen over the years its not likely to be the trans.
So I'll see what I find in the bottom end. There should be strong evidence given how loud the noise was.
I took one header off the head to remove the torque converter dust shield and it is sealing up really nice. Plus I took one spark plug wire off at a time while running and the noise did not change.
The trans, torque converter, flex plate, all bolts etc were all working correctly when the old 340 was pulled. All those parts are low mileage and have little to no wear. Given those facts and what you have seen over the years its not likely to be the trans.
So I'll see what I find in the bottom end. There should be strong evidence given how loud the noise was.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
340s your right that you should be able to find it farily easy since it's so loud.
If your going to pull the engine anyway you might as well have a look at the converter and pump just to make sure. Just because I haven't seen it don't mean it couldn't happen. I learned that a long time ago. If it would be anything in the torque converter/pump area the only thing I could think it could be is the bushing in the front end of the pump right behind the seal loose and letting the torque converter snout slap around. I haven't ever seen one loose enough to do that but like I said.....anything can happen.
If your going to pull the engine anyway you might as well have a look at the converter and pump just to make sure. Just because I haven't seen it don't mean it couldn't happen. I learned that a long time ago. If it would be anything in the torque converter/pump area the only thing I could think it could be is the bushing in the front end of the pump right behind the seal loose and letting the torque converter snout slap around. I haven't ever seen one loose enough to do that but like I said.....anything can happen.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Fishy,
I know the torque converter front seal is not leaking and when I watch the converter spin with the dust cover off it is not wobbling. Its spins nice and true. I did change that front seal when the engine was out but I doubt I messed anything up. I didn't beat on it with a hammer or anything like that. It was a pretty easy job and torque converter seated all the way in, 1/2" past the housing. Torque converter also spun easily when I went to line it up with the flex plate after trans was bolted to the engine. When I drop the car in drive everything seems normal. No trans fluid leaks anywhere, car would move normally. The noise we are hearing in the video would just drop as the RPMs dropped.
I know the torque converter front seal is not leaking and when I watch the converter spin with the dust cover off it is not wobbling. Its spins nice and true. I did change that front seal when the engine was out but I doubt I messed anything up. I didn't beat on it with a hammer or anything like that. It was a pretty easy job and torque converter seated all the way in, 1/2" past the housing. Torque converter also spun easily when I went to line it up with the flex plate after trans was bolted to the engine. When I drop the car in drive everything seems normal. No trans fluid leaks anywhere, car would move normally. The noise we are hearing in the video would just drop as the RPMs dropped.
demon seed
The Original Demon Seed
Bill, I've been following this thread from the start and at first I thought it was valve train also but when I heard the sound coming from the bottom of the engine it really sounds like either the oil pan scraper or exhaust leak. Now you'd think by now you've run it long enough that if the scraper was rubbing it would be rubbed out by now. Therefore I'm leaning towards a pin hole in one of the pipes or the welds at the collector. Even though you've disconnected the plug wires one at a time there is still exhaust pressure at the collector that will leak.
Try this, disconnect your fan belt so the engine fan and alternator ain't making any wind and close the garage doors, you can run the engine for a minute or 2 without the water pump. If you don't smoke find somebody who does preferably cigars and get under the jacked up front end and see if the smoke gets blown around, also make sure the dust cover is on the tranny and I'd even tape up the edges to keep any wind from the converter muddying the water. Keep up the good detective work and you'll find the problem and hell we'll all learn something I'm betting when you do.
Terry
Try this, disconnect your fan belt so the engine fan and alternator ain't making any wind and close the garage doors, you can run the engine for a minute or 2 without the water pump. If you don't smoke find somebody who does preferably cigars and get under the jacked up front end and see if the smoke gets blown around, also make sure the dust cover is on the tranny and I'd even tape up the edges to keep any wind from the converter muddying the water. Keep up the good detective work and you'll find the problem and hell we'll all learn something I'm betting when you do.
Terry
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
340s If it's not leaking that's a good sign everythings tight in there cause if it was slapping around it would most likely leak.
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