Pleading for help on a no start issue still

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wh23g3g

wh23g3g

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This is really taking a toll on my confidence in continuing this car. I'm trying to figure out a problem but I wanted to first understand how the starting system works on these old Chryslers. You've got the firewall mounted starter relay which on mine has 4 terminals. Mounted on top stud is where the fusible link wire goes from the firewall, the wire from the positive battery cable, and a wire from the horn relay, which I have currently disconnected. Then on the SOL terminal is a 12 gauge brown wire coming from the starter. Then on the IGNITION terminal you have the yellow/black tracer wire coming out of the firewall connector. Finally on the GRD terminal you have the wire going to the NSS on the transmission. It's got a new relay, new starter, new cables, new engine harness, new fusible link, new alternator regulator, ballast resistor, new ignition lock cylinder, and new ignition switch. Everything has power on the back of fuse block that should have power except the gray wire going to the OIL pressure light. When you try to start the engine, no sound is made anywhere, the yellow wire from the ignition switch to the firewall shows power, and on the outside shows power. However, that 12 gauge brown wire does not show power when the key is turned to START. The only one that doesn't show power. However, when I bypass whatever I'm bypassing with a screwdriver on the relay and I probe that 12 gauge wire it then it shows power both at the starter and at the relay. So I'm trying to understand when I cross the SOL and BATT terminal on the relay with a screwdriver what am I ruling out or bypassing? Am I bypassing the ignition switch or the starter solenoid? I was so fed up fighting this issue for almost a year now I removed the dash harness over the weekend and with a mechanic friend went through the entire harness to see if any wires were broken or placed in the wrong position. Only a BLACK accessory wire on the dash cluster plug was in the wrong place. The gray wire for the oil light from the cluster plug to the firewall is perfect, no breaks. The PIN on the cluster board is perfect, shiny not broken. However, the OIL LIGHT will only flash between OFF and ON positions, does not light up when the key is in the ON position. I know that oil light circuit is tied in with the ignition key switch. So I'm wondering when the no start issue is fixed the oil light will work. I'm at a point where I don't know what else to check. Any other help is appreciated. No one that I've had look at it has any idea. I don't want to tow it to a shop to get just this problem fixed because I have so much more to do and I want to make sure the engine is still good from sitting for so long. I find it hard to get the engine running while you can't even try starting it with the key.
 
WHAT YEAR MODEL are we working on, please?

Here's how Mopar ignition/ starting works

The ignition switch is in reality several switches in one box.

You have the main power going into the IGN switch, which is supplied from a factory welded "in harness splice" in the ammeter circuit

I assume the car generally has power IE do the switched accessories (key in "run" or "acc") work?

LARGE RED is the power going into the IGN switch from the ammeter circuit

Coming OUT of the IGN switch

LARGE BLACK is hot in "run" or "acc" and feeds the switched accessory buss in the fuse box

DARK BLUE is hot ONLY in "run" and feeds the dash cluster, the warning lights, and out through the bulkhead to feed the ignition system, the regulator, on 70/ newer cars feeds the alternator field, and electric choke if used NOT fused

BROWN hot ONLY in "start" goes only one place -- to the coil + side of the ballast resistor, this is the "resistor bypass" circuit, supplies ignition voltage in "start" and gives you hotter voltage by bypassing the ballast resistor

YELLOW hot ONLY in "start" goes only one place. THIS IS A SEPARATE SWITCH from the brown and must not be interconnected. Goes out through the bulkhead, connects to one of the "push on" terminals on the START RELAY

The start relay ONLY fires IF the key is in "start" AND the transmission is in park or neutral.

When the start relay fires, it closes it's contacts, which are the big battery stud and the bare "square" screw terminal.

This relay, when closed, "jumpers" from the big stud to the "square" terminal, which feeds power down to the starter solenoid.

Do I understand that when you jumper the exposed terminals on the start relay, that the engine cranks OK? yes? no?

IF so, the trouble is in the ign switch, upper wiring, starter relay

If the starter does NOT crank when you jumper across the relay, then battery supply to starter, IE not enough battery, bad cables, bad starter, or bad wire from the relay to the starter. IT HAPPENS, this wire is subject to "thumping" vibration from engine movement.

If the starter does not crank as above, move down and short across the starter terminals. If it cranks OK, then it's relay/ solenoid wire from relay to starter, IE something "up top." If not, either starter is bad or something in battery cables

NEW parts does not mean FUNCTIONAL parts.

Post back here, we'll be happy to help
 
It's a 65 170 Valiant, automatic. I know new parts don't guarantee that they will work, but several changes of those new parts and you figure you'd get at least one that would work. When I cross those two terminals on the starter relay the engine does crank. But when you turn the key nothing happens at all. The headlights work, the heater works, the signals work, the wiper pivots move as long as the arms aren't on there - but thats another problem to contend with after I can get it started. The turn signal indicator lights up when you move the stalk, the oil light bulb only flashes between turning the key from OFF to ON, does nothing when you try to START, doesn't light up nor does the gray wire show power at the firewall. It was suggessted that the NSS may be a problem. The wire was original and a little ratty so I replaced with the same gauge a new brass Chrysler terminal and a new eyelet at the transmission end. When you probe the GRD terminal when trying to start the engine the test light will light up at the terminal but I don't know about at the NSS switch itself. I didn't have a long enough test lead to test that. I tried to see if the ignition switch would do anything in any other gear and it does nothing. I did rebuild the steering colum and installing those shift cables was interesting but everything seems to shift positively. I guess I could test it by putting it in NEUTRAL and seeing if it will actually roll, then I know the shift cable might be adjusted right. I know on my 73 Charger it did this same thing, nothing at all from the relay and the shift lever was barely out of adjustment, but on that I could put it between two gears and it would crank. On this Valiant it doesn't matter what gear you're in, it does nothing. The top post on the relay has power always and does when you turn the key to START, as does the yellow/with tracer wire, and the GRD wire. Just the brown small gauge wire to the starter does not show power on the test light when the key is turned to START. The ammeter wires were soldered in from a donor harness because the originals were melted, the turn signal wires also. But it shows 12 volts at the red side of the ammeter stud and 10.51 on the black side. So it does work and the needle does move very slightly when you turn the key ON.
 
Yep, we need more info. Don't get overwhelmed, it's very basic stuff.
 
wh23g3g said:
It's a 65 170 Valiant,........................When you probe the GRD terminal when trying to start the engine the test light will light up at the terminal ................................Just the brown small gauge wire to the starter does not show power .
Click to expand...

Ok I misunderstood the brown, thought you were talking about the brown to the coil+ side of the resistor, which is the bypass circuit

YOU HAVE FOUND the problem

The fact that the NSS terminal is HOT during start means

the wire to the NSS is bad, or

the NSS is bad, or

the trans is not properly adjusted to go into park or neutral.

EASY way "to get going" is to remove the NSS wire, and run a clip lead from the ground terminal of the start relay to ground. CAREFUL as it now can start in any gear, but the trouble has to be between the relay and the NSS.
 
I've done all the tests that mechanics have told me to try. I've checked all the obvious stuff, broken connections, blown fuses, grounding wires. Don't know any other tests to try. And this harness under the dash is about half as many wires as on my 73 Charger and still less than my 98 Ford Ranger engine harness. So if I can't figure out why it doesn't start on a 65 Valiant which this one is the most basic of cars, I don't know if I should ever mess with electrical problems again. I am determined to find out why it won't start though, I will be so happy when I find the cause and fix and suddenly it starts. That's what Im waiting for. I was thinking about trying to add a universal push button or other keyed starter switch and see if that worked. But I've never installed one so I don't know how difficult it would be, I'd like to just find the problem with the original key switch.
 
I have tried that test. I ran a jumper wire from the GRD terminal to one of the vertical exhaust manifold bolts because it's new and shiny. But it still didn't start in any gear, it in fact didn't change anything. I was thinking of all what I messed with and remembered how the misadjusted shift linkage caused the same issue on my Charger. But this one is different, its got two cables. One for park and one for shift gears. How do I know which is adjusted right or if they are misadjusted at all? I still want to check the NSS itself because it's greasy and nasty when I looked at it. Although I didn't mess with it during all the stuff I did. There is a test in the Chrysler book that states to run a test light lead to the positive battery side and probe the switch to see if it lights up. Is it that simple? Do I just put the test light clip on the positive side of the battery and probe the stud on the NSS? It doesn't have to be in Neutral or the key on? It didn't really say in the book.
 
All the NSS does is provide a ground. SO if you clip the NSS terminal on the starter relay to ground it HAS to start unless something ELSE is also wrong.

IF the starter cranks when you jumper the relay, and...........

IF it does not start with the NSS terminal on the relay grounded (for SURE grounded), and the key in "start"

then the relay could be bad, or you are not getting "solid' voltage to the relay

SO

Do this:

REMOVE the NSS wire from the relay and GROUND that terminal, twist the key to "start"

No crank?

Put your test light from ground to the yellow wire on the other push-on terminal of the relay. Should have a nice bright lamp in with key in "start". No crank?

Move your test light to the starter solenoid terminal of the relay. (The "square" screw) Twist the key to start. No power? Bad relay
 
First '65 I bought had a big push button wired in for the starter, any gear...any time...I got the 65-66 FSM if you need some diagrams.
 
I know I've done the jumper wire test many times and nothing happens. Don't know if I ever probed the yellow wire and the brown wire while it was grounded. I took the relay home with me today and was going to take it apart to see if something was broken inside but I tore it up trying to get it apart so it will be new again anyway. I might try those tests tomorrow if I can find a relay tomorrow and if I'm not too tired.
 
I think you have a dash wiring problem. If I read this right, you're not getting power to the starter relay's "I" connection, in the start position, correct? Also troubling is the oil light warning circuit. I think you might want take a different approach and find out why that is not getting power in the "on" position. It may lead you to a common problem area.
 
I've tried to figure out the oil light issue. It's definitely not hooked up wrong and the wire from the round connector is not broken. We unwrapped it and checked all the way from the pin to the firewall. Also all the wires coming off the ignition switch show power that should show power. I think it's the blue wire that's tied in with the oil pressure light and it also for sure hooked up to the appropriate pin on the round connector and the wire is not broken anywhere. I'm going to try the shift cable adjustment because that was hard to do and I'm sure I could've easily got it out of adjustment. And I'll try and check the NSS itself while I'm down there.
 
Try using jumper cables from the hot on the battery straight to the starter and see if it turns over.
 
My first thought ===both maybe no power to the relay (yellow) in start AND the oil light issue JUST MIGHT BE the 'ol bulkhead connector. I'd pull it apart and inspect

Easy to test the oil lamp. Just ground the sender wire with the key in run.
 
Yeah I tried that trick with the oil pressure unit. I grounded the gray wire with a jumper to ground and turn the key and still it didn't light up on RUN or START, only flickers between OFF and ON. I pulled all the wires out of the bulkhead connector, everything's tight and clean. The bulb does work too, of course it wouldn't flicker if it didn't. I can only try and readjust the shift cable I don't know that I'll do it right this time, it's complicated to get it exactly right the way the book says.
 
Ok I went to where my Valiant is stored and did and adjustment and a check. I factory adjusted the shifter cable. It's a column shift. I followed the instructions out of the 65 Valiant service manual to a T. First I follwed the test procedure on testing the NSS. On this Valiant it's part #2495537 but on the actual switch it's got a #2496138. So don't know if it's a casting number or it's been changed in the past. The test said to hookup a test light to the battery positive cable and disconnect the terminal on the NSS, then probe the terminal with the test light. I did probed the threaded terminal, both on the threads and in the center of the terminal and the test light did not light up. However, if you probed the hex part where you put a socket on to unscrew the switch from the transmission it lit up. I guess because I was touching a metal ground surface because anytime I touched the exhaust pipe or sheetmetal it lit up, but not the terminal. It says to specifically probe the terminal not the switch casing. It says if it doesn't light up the switch is defective, out of adjustment, or gearshift control may be out of adjustment. So I followed the factory procedure adjusting the shifter cable and retested with the same results. There wasn't really an adjustment section for adjusting the NSS itself, it just said to remove the switch and move the selector to PARK and NEUTRAL and inspect to see if the operating lever fingers are centered. I saw some kind of levers but I don't know how to tell if they're working or centered. There's not much to this switch and they're expensive if you can still find one. It didn't pass the test but I'd hat to pay $50-$100 for a switch that it doesn't need. Any other ideas? Or is that a sure shot defective switch?
 
As previously mentioned, bypass the switch so you take it out of the equation. Run a jumper wire to ground the terminal on the starter relay where the other end of the NSS wire attaches. That is the same as if the NSS is in neutral or park where it grounds that terminal. Just make absolute sure that the car is in park or neutral, E-brake is on, and wheels chocked as the car will start in any gear with the NSS bypassed. If the engine will now crank over with the starter motor, Either the switch is bad, shift cable is way out of adjustment, or something has broken inside the transmission. The NSS can be tested out of the car but some tranny fluid will leak out if you remove it. It's actually a spring loaded ground terminal than an real "switch". There should be continuity from the outside threaded terminal to the inside contact. It shouldn't change even by moving the inside terminal throughout it's travel. If you find the NSS is bad, I'm sure someone here has a good used one......I do if you can't find one closer but test yours before you start ordering parts.
 
Either the switch is defective, or there is something wrong in the adjustment or transmission, so you are on the right track

I would think you could pull the switch out of the trans and check continuity, to see if you can get anywhere with it.

I don't know about 65's, but I've been told you can use the newer three terminal NSS which is combined backup lights and NSS. However, when using the 3 terminal switch in the older cars, you can NOT make use of the backup light function, only the NSS function. You'd have to get a connector pigtail, and use ONLY the center pin of the three terminal swtich.

At this point, to get the "old girl" running, you should be able to temporarily ground the relay terminal that runs down to the NSS, and allow the car to start but IT WOULD START IN ANY GEAR so be careful.

Sorry, not familiar with cable adjustment on those transmissions.
 
The later 3 pin neutral safety switch can be used in place of the original single pin NSS on some transmissions but not all. I've read posts stating tightening that switch fully into the early trans looks fine initially but remove the switch again after first shifter/rooster comb movement and you'll find the switch is broken. As others have said, just connect that wire to ground for testing.
Some ignition switches do drop the fuse box circuit in the start position so the oil warning lamp, radio, wipers, etc.. would stop working during start.
I'm not familiar enough with these early A switches and components to be more helpful. Reviewing everything you've posted, I think the ignition switch is the probelm.
Good luck
 
I had a mechanic stop buy and do some testing. He came to the conclusion that the NSS is defective. I'm not convinced that it is bad but I will search for one. I believe because I rebuilt the steering column and to reinstall the automatic shift cables back in the transmission that the cable is out of adjustment. I've tried the factory adjustment several times myself with no progress and I even did it today with the mechanic there. He also tried himself. No one has been familiar with it. I know that tv show that's no longer on the air "Desert Car Kings" was doing a 65 Barracuda and couldn't get it started or moving and they had to readjust the shift cable. The other news is we were able to turn it over with the key switch by jumping the NSS wire to ground. Also the oil light issue is fixed. It was just a bad bulb socket. So now I'm going to go back and actually see if I can get the engine started and tuned right. I'll check the shift positions and see if each gear matches with the right spot on the needle and I guess that will tell me if the shifter is adjusted right. I need to find an article about doing this shift adjustment right because the factory manual isn't easy to follow. I might try the new style NSS if I can't find an old NSS. I'll keep updating.
 
I have followed the FSM "shift adjustment" procedure (pull on cable, screw down round nut until tight, then back off 5 holes, or such) and it never comes out quite right, i.e. not in the center of "N" in transmission when on "N" in shifter. It seems iffy where "tight" is since the round nut must be perfectly parallel with the housing. I usually have to find where the shifter detents match the transmission's and adjust the cable a few holes (or turns) to align them. When I adjusted my 65 Dart a few months ago, I had years of experience with my 65 Newport but still the NSS wouldn't let me start until I tweaked the cable.

As you found by now, you don't have to worry about all the wires under the dash when trouble-shooting a "no start" issue. Only a few wires are involved and all are color-coded. A multimeter would help a lot. You could check the NSS with the ohm setting without worrying about the relay, etc. You can sometimes get free at Harbor.

The starter relay is nothing special. I use a regular 30A "auto relay" for that in my Dart since I put in a PDC, same as in my newer minivans. You should be happy that your 65 Dart feeds the big ALT and BATT leads thru the bulkhead on solid bolted studs instead of the "type 57" spade terminals of later Mopars that are notorious for melting the whole connector.
 
Yes I don't know how to diagnose that the cable is out of adjustment or the nss is bad. I suggessted adjusting each detent on the shift selector matched with pulling the cable. Is that an easier way to do it? We didn't really know how to do it with a cable. It's easier on my 73 Charger. The only other way I know is to start it with the NSS wire grounded and hope it's not in drive. Of course I'll have the E-brake and my foot on the brake. Then if it's not then I could shift through all the gears and figure out if each works. We're going to try and start the engine tomorrow. I know the timing is off because I installed a new distributor and the carb is probably no good even after a rebuild. It's a 62 Holley 1920. If we can get it started tomorrow and the shift positions seem ok then I'll order a NSS. I hope once I get it back to where it's supposse to be that this is not something that will come out of adjustment a lot. So if I pull the cable all the way out that's 1? Push it in the next click thats 2, and so on?
 
I got a new NOS NSS this weekend in the mail. I will install it on my 65 Valiant and see if it is indeed bad. I can definitely tell a difference in the plunger. This one is nice and easy the old one felt stiff to retract when you pushed in on it. I guess installing it and seeing if it will start will tell me if it is indeed the NSS or the cable is out of adjustment. I also went ahead and ordered a remanufactured Holley 1920 and got the distributor set to 0 on compression so we can see if this will indeed fire up. I will receive it this week sometime hopefully it won't be as finicky as my 73 Charger to get this timing and carb adjusted since there isn't much to it.
 
wh23g3g said:
... guess installing it and seeing if it will start will tell me if it is indeed the NSS or the cable is out of adjustment.
Click to expand...
That is a round-about way of testing the NSS and transmission cable. Why not check it directly with a multimeter? It is a single wire from the transmission. When in P or N, it should connect to ground (<100 ohms), otherwise >1 Mohm.

I already gave you the procedure for adjusting the cable per the factory manual (for my 65 Dart & 65 Newport), as best I remember it. Anyway, as I said that always needs tweaking in my experience.

Not much theory to it. The transmission's valve body has spring-loaded detents for P,R,N,D,2,1 and the steering column lever has it's own detents. You just adjust the cable to make the 2 line up. Same deal in my 96 Voyager, so you could read that manual if you can't find a 65 manual. The cable tension adjuster is slightly different, but same concept. Your 65 Valiant cable adjuster is almost identical to the brake cable on a bicycle.
 
Well I'm on the right track now, maybe even found the problem for sure 100%. It was indeed a bad NSS. At least so far as I know because I installed the new one and I got a click when I turned the key to RUN. So to go from nothing at all to having the normal click of a dead battery is a good sign actually.
 
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