Rebuilt A 833 front oil leak

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I8NEMO

I8NEMO

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Oil leaks from the front snout see arrow. This trans was rebuilt buy a Transmission guy I have used before and have had no problems with but he's moved out of state. This rebuilt 4spd sat for about 5 years before the car was ready for it. While on the transmission jack and readied for installation I filled it with oil, while I'm pumping away and pretty sure I had exceeded the unit's capacity with no oil exiting the fill hole I saw a flow of oil coming from the end of the front collar/snout see arrow in pic. ( I did notice the tranny was tilted fwd slightly).

It's important to understand that initially I installed the 4spd (with no clutch OR PILOT BEARING) only to support the engine since the plan at that time was to break in the engine and check things out without driving it then tear it down for paint. After installation I topped off the trans oil until it ran out of the filler hole. Over the next several months I ran the engine many times and had no leaks transmission or otherwise. No pilot bushing means no input shaft turning during these engine runs and with full transmission oil capacity I don't think a flange or plug leak developed instantly after driving to confuse this issue.

Then my plan changed, I really wanted to drive the car so I checked the Transmission oil, pulled the trans. back, installed a pilot bushing and clutch and reinstalled the 4spd. and have many trips on the car each time producing a leak when parked. Visually when under the car, the leak can be seen at the Bell/Trans interface. Interior of bell and clutch are dry.

I've never rebuilt a 4 spd, so did my guy omit a seal? if he did maybe it's dried out after sitting 5 years? If oil is creeping out of the snout how can the clutch and bell be dry? If you all are able to easily identify the problem, what is the fix?

Much Thanks

Tim

Front leak.jpeg
 
I would pop the retainer off and check the seal.
Trans out, easy, trans in, no so much.
Also I make a small gasket and sandwich it between the bell and trans on the countershaft plug.
They sometime seep there also.
Resized_20230921_113545.jpeg
 
2 things, there's a seal in the front retainer that may have been missed and should have been replaced.
The more likely thing is the snap ring around the bearing was not replaced with the original one from the original bearing.
The snap ring that comes with the new bearing is often not narrow enuff to fit in the recess in the retainer, and will not allow the retainer to seat against the trans case, and often damages the retainer when bolts get cinched down,
Replace/grind snap ring if nec.
If so, check for cracks around retainer bolts.
Good luck
 
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Check the seal in the front bearing retainer. Check the input shaft where the seal rides. Polish with 600 wet or dry sand paper and WD-40 if is rough or rusty. Use RTV on the four bolts for the front bearing retainer.
 
I'm also thinking............the rear yoke and the pilot both hold important roles to keep everything concentric. Otherwise, the pilot shaft can sag, + the weight of the unsupported main shaft will sag and pry upwards in the rear of the input shaft, worsening the problem. "Could it be" that sitting around in this condition deformed the seal lip?
 
Thanks you guys, weather is nice in Phx finally, looks like trans. is coming out for a look see!
 
inertia said:
2 things, there's a seal in the front retainer that may have been missed and should have been replaced.
The more likely thing is the snap ring around the bearing was not replaced with the original one from the original bearing.
The snap ring that comes with the new bearing is often not narrow enuff to fit in the recess in the retainer, and will not allow the retainer to seat against the trans case, and often damages the retainer when bolts get cinched down,
Replace/grind snap ring if nec.
If so, check for cracks around retainer bolts.
Good luck
Click to expand...
This!
and if you did cinch it down with the big ring in there, like @inertia said, check the retainer very carefully.
BTW,
those front seals almost never wear out, and you gotta be pretty clumsy to damage them on an install. I have been running A833s almost continuously since 1970; and,
I have seen mine with over 100,000 miles on them still good to be reused; and
they seal any oil you might install, and
I think that I have tried them all, lol.
I'm with inertia.
 
Much thanks AJ, guys. My money is on the snap ring. Without your knowledge and experience I'd either be reliant on the guy who did the work, or start my own A833 school of hard knocks which probably would have been: remove collar, reseal, reassemble, reinstall, re- leak, swear, pull tranny again. Should have collar off/ pics later today.
 
For the record I'm getting old and forgetful. The original post shows oil coming from the front collar/input shaft. Hilarious. An old picture reminded me that oil was actually leaking out the back as I filled it , with no driveline in. I'm losing it man.
 
BrianT said:
Following for the four speed knowledge.
Click to expand...
Here's a tip: when removing the shifter bracket's 3 countersunk allen head machine screws make sure the holes are clean and you have the correct allen size. I was in a hurry once and stripped the head on one
 
Speaking of those specialty screws, above, they have a nasty habit of coming loose. At one time I had the idea of installing "star washers" on them, which dig into the aluminum, and I thought that would keep the heads tight.
Well, it turns out that those bolts are super hard, and the Star-washers failed to hang on to them, and they came loose again. :(
The only thing that has worked for me is Loc-tite. I use the blue, cuz it's easy to negate with a lil heat, when you want to take the bracket off.

Which brings me to the lil short shift levers on the forward ends of the shift-rods. It doesn't take much time to pound those slots out, and then the levers will refuse to stay tight, and you will tear your hair out resetting your neutral-gate over and over and over, and eventually you will tear the threads off the pins.
Here is the easy solution;
First; this works best with the cover on the bench.
Second; you will need some red loc-tite.
Third: those levers are super hard, and you can hardly modify them. But if yours are "wallered out", you gotta try. What I do is, with a center-punch, place a divot near each corner, driving metal towards where the pin will call home. I do that in all 4 corners and both sides, until the lever has to be helped home onto the pins. Then I remove any protrusions that will interfere with tightening the nuts. You will need a small grinder.
Speaking of nuts, those are special, get new ones. Standard grade 5 split lock washers will not do. Get the nuts with the serrated saw-tooth flanges as part of the nuts.
Next, install the levers on the pins and seat them down by installing the nuts and tightening them just enough to pull them into alignment, then remove the nuts. Now comes the important part .....
fill the cavities with red loc-tite. I'm talking around the flats of the levers. then a drop on the threaded part, then install the nuts torqued down.
Next, immediately flip the cover face side down. This is to keep the loc-tite from escaping out the back, where it likes to creep down into between the cover and the internal levers. When that happens, the whole thing binds up and the cover will not shift, and you gotta start over. By flipping the cover face down, this prevents the loc-tite from doing this monkey business.
Immediately, shift the levers a few times to make sure it still works, then wait 5 minutes and shift it again. Repeat for 30 minutes until the loc-tite has set.

Ok now, the last time I did this on my A833, it was 2004, and they have never yet needed to have the Neutral-gate re-aligned. Halleluyah.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Speaking of those specialty screws, above, they have a nasty habit of coming loose. At one time I had the idea of installing "star washers" on them, which dig into the aluminum, and I thought that would keep the heads tight.
Well, it turns out that those bolts are super hard, and the Star-washers failed to hang on to them, and they came loose again. :(
The only thing that has worked for me is Loc-tite. I use the blue, cuz it's easy to negate with a lil heat, when you want to take the bracket off.

Which brings me to the lil short shift levers on the forward ends of the shift-rods. It doesn't take much time to pound those slots out, and then the levers will refuse to stay tight, and you will tear your hair out resetting your neutral-gate over and over and over, and eventually you will tear the threads off the pins.
Here is the easy solution;
First; this works best with the cover on the bench.
Second; you will need some red loc-tite.
Third: those levers are super hard, and you can hardly modify them. But if yours are "wallered out", you gotta try. What I do is, with a center-punch, place a divot near each corner, driving metal towards where the pin will call home. I do that in all 4 corners and both sides, until the lever has to be helped home onto the pins. Then I remove any protrusions that will interfere with tightening the nuts. You will need a small grinder.
Speaking of nuts, those are special, get new ones. Standard grade 5 split lock washers will not do. Get the nuts with the serrated saw-tooth flanges as part of the nuts.
Next, install the levers on the pins and seat them down by installing the nuts and tightening them just enough to pull them into alignment, then remove the nuts. Now comes the important part .....
fill the cavities with red loc-tite. I'm talking around the flats of the levers. then a drop on the threaded part, then install the nuts torqued down.
Next, immediately flip the cover face side down. This is to keep the loc-tite from escaping out the back, where it likes to creep down into between the cover and the internal levers. When that happens, the whole thing binds up and the cover will not shift, and you gotta start over. By flipping the cover face down, this prevents the loc-tite from doing this monkey business.
Immediately, shift the levers a few times to make sure it still works, then wait 5 minutes and shift it again. Repeat for 30 minutes until the loc-tite has set.

Ok now, the last time I did this on my A833, it was 2004, and they have never yet needed to have the Neutral-gate re-aligned. Halleluyah.
Click to expand...
Good intel there, I've got a Muncie 4pd in a 73 FJ40 with the same shift lever loosening issue, sounds like a great fix! On my Barracuda I have the opposite issue with the shifter bracket allen bolts, always tight as hell!
 
I like Muncies. I have built quite a few of them. I spent over 5 years in the late 70s/early 80s working in a powertrain rebuilding shop. I started out building passenger car manual-transmissions and differentials, and many other things besides, and moved up the line rapidly when it was discovered that I could work off parts drawings etc. Soon I was making the big bucks, doing heavy equipment.
But I always had a softspot for the lightweight passenger car 4-speeds, and never turned down an opportunity to rebuilt one.
 
I8NEMO said:
On my Barracuda I have the opposite issue with the shifter bracket allen bolts, always tight as hell!
Click to expand...
As to this, I can't say as that's really a bad thing, lol. Isn't that what you want? lol. I mean is there a reason to ever take it off?
Since my shifter is now moved way back and over to the left and raised up, she is mounted on a fabbed adapter with grade-eight HHbolts, and loc-tited on, a lil heat loosens the bolts right up.
Yes I remove the shifter to take the trans down, but the adapter always stays on the tail.

BTW, as to your Muncie; If the holes in the adapter-plate are wallerd out, that plate will never stay tight. I have run into that. But the plate is aluminum, and the holes easily filled, and any machine-shop can redrill the beveled holes just right; just bring them the new bolts, and the tailpiece.
Sure you can do it yourself, but the bevels you drill have to match the bevels on your bolts, and the patterns have to be an exact match, else the bolts will have to bend as they are tightened, leaving the bevels Not contacting/seating 100%, setting your project up to failure once again.
Better it is, to let the machine shop do it, and if they get it wrong, to fix it for free, lol.
 
AJ/FormS said:
As to this, I can't say as that's really a bad thing, lol. Isn't that what you want? lol. I mean is there a reason to ever take it off?
Since my shifter is now moved way back and over to the left and raised up, she is mounted on a fabbed adapter with grade-eight HHbolts, and loc-tited on, a lil heat loosens the bolts right up.
Yes I remove the shifter to take the trans down, but the adapter always stays on the tail.

BTW, as to your Muncie; If the holes in the adapter-plate are wallerd out, that plate will never stay tight. I have run into that. But the plate is aluminum, and the holes easily filled, and any machine-shop can redrill the beveled holes just right; just bring them the new bolts, and the tailpiece.
Sure you can do it yourself, but the bevels you drill have to match the bevels on your bolts, and the patterns have to be an exact match, else the bolts will have to bend as they are tightened, leaving the bevels Not contacting/seating 100%, setting your project up to failure once again.
Better it is, to let the machine shop do it, and if they get it wrong, to fix it for free, lol.
Click to expand...
Well I can't get the tranny back far enough for removal without taking that adapter off. The floor pockets its in is tiny
 
Looks like snap ring. So to be clear the snap ring must nestle within the corresponding collar recess correct?

VideoCapture_20231211-105517.jpg


VideoCapture_20231211-105558.jpg
 
Question 1: I can move the input shaft up and down 1/8" or so. Normal?
 
Question 2: what if anything seals the bearing housing land to the face of the gear box housing?

20231211_103403.jpg
 
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