round two low idel

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oh i havent checked yet, I know it will start with 24, but IF it will start with 30-34 then im going to lock it out...but I have other problems...I think that popping sound was coolant leaking into my intake and popping. Which I believe my intake gaskets are leaking again because I have little bit of water in the oil when I check the dip stick...not a whole lot of water but a little bit too where I notice it on the dipstick
 
The link I sent you is from a professional race engine builder with years of experience.Let me know if you read it .
 
I'll add what I think is happening due to all that initial timing and why on a street car it's not considered by many a good idea.
Any carb's throttle response and idle quality will are factory determined providing the airflow thru them is within their tolerance. Too little airflow or too little can lead to mixture issues, which is what your popping is. Coolant in an exh port is steam. Not popping. Unburnt fuel pops in the exhaust, and it pops because the burn in the cylinder is so bad that there is still oxygen left over too. The burn is bad because your lighting it so early the mixture in the cylinder doesnt have a chance to really mix well prior to the flame from being lit. That means some wet fuel out still of suspension and the possibility of the final few degrees of piston movement squishing out portions of the flame front. The piston is at TDC for about 10°. If you're lighting it at 30 or earlier at idle rpm the burn is making maximum pressure on the crank but from a smaller less-mixed volume of fuel and air and for a shorter number of degrees because the crank is preceeded by the burn. With pump gas the burn is even faster.
By igniting it just as the piston is stopping the upward stroke the mix is tumbled that last bit and by the time the flame kernel has formed and begun to expand out the piston is at 15° or so after TDC and in a much better position to leverage the crank throw over a larger number of degrees. The burn continues to expand the gasses even as the piston moves down the bore. Something currently in your car, that is not happening. The number of degrees the crank has to go doesnt change. The time it has to move that distance does change with rpm. At idle, it takes more clock time (we're talking hundreths and thousanths of a second) to cover the 30-40° that seperate the ending of the compression stroke and the point of maximum leverage on the crank. Stroke and rod legnth affect this amount of time too, but that is not adjustable once the parts are spec'd. At 3K rpm, it's a lot less time which is why the factories have self adjusting timing. Race cars that spend thier entire working life over 2-3K don't need any special timing control. You time it for the range it operates in. A street car operates in such a wide range, and needs to be fairly decent in all of them, that the advance controls are used.

Now when you have it so early, the carb has to be set to run with it. So by running the timing so early, the carb is almost shut and it shouldnt be. By retarding the initial timing to where it should be (15-18°) you will have to open the throttle plates with the speed screw. As a result of that airflow the fine adjustability will come back to the mixture screws. Once the mixture is set, the drop into gear will not be an issue, nor will the popping in the pipes.
My final setup recommendation is idle rpm: 900 in nuetral. Initial:18° Total:32° all in no earlier than 2200 and no later than 2600.
 
I'll add what I think is happening due to all that initial timing and why on a street car it's not considered by many a good idea.
Any carb's throttle response and idle quality will are factory determined providing the airflow thru them is within their tolerance. Too little airflow or too little can lead to mixture issues, which is what your popping is. Coolant in an exh port is steam. Not popping. Unburnt fuel pops in the exhaust, and it pops because the burn in the cylinder is so bad that there is still oxygen left over too. The burn is bad because your lighting it so early the mixture in the cylinder doesnt have a chance to really mix well prior to the flame from being lit. That means some wet fuel out still of suspension and the possibility of the final few degrees of piston movement squishing out portions of the flame front. The piston is at TDC for about 10°. If you're lighting it at 30 or earlier at idle rpm the burn is making maximum pressure on the crank but from a smaller less-mixed volume of fuel and air and for a shorter number of degrees because the crank is preceeded by the burn. With pump gas the burn is even faster.
By igniting it just as the piston is stopping the upward stroke the mix is tumbled that last bit and by the time the flame kernel has formed and begun to expand out the piston is at 15° or so after TDC and in a much better position to leverage the crank throw over a larger number of degrees. The burn continues to expand the gasses even as the piston moves down the bore. Something currently in your car, that is not happening. The number of degrees the crank has to go doesnt change. The time it has to move that distance does change with rpm. At idle, it takes more clock time (we're talking hundreths and thousanths of a second) to cover the 30-40° that seperate the ending of the compression stroke and the point of maximum leverage on the crank. Stroke and rod legnth affect this amount of time too, but that is not adjustable once the parts are spec'd. At 3K rpm, it's a lot less time which is why the factories have self adjusting timing. Race cars that spend thier entire working life over 2-3K don't need any special timing control. You time it for the range it operates in. A street car operates in such a wide range, and needs to be fairly decent in all of them, that the advance controls are used.

Now when you have it so early, the carb has to be set to run with it. So by running the timing so early, the carb is almost shut and it shouldnt be. By retarding the initial timing to where it should be (15-18°) you will have to open the throttle plates with the speed screw. As a result of that airflow the fine adjustability will come back to the mixture screws. Once the mixture is set, the drop into gear will not be an issue, nor will the popping in the pipes.
My final setup recommendation is idle rpm: 900 in nuetral. Initial:18° Total:32° all in no earlier than 2200 and no later than 2600.


ok I see what your saying, and I ask why shouldent I run more initial that would get me more vac. as I seen mad dart do with his camshaft thats kind of similar.. I want the most power from this thing while being able to run the crap out of it.

Will I make less power with 18 initial? then 24?
Im going to put it in at 18 and see what happens..what should I do if it still pops?
and coolant leaking into the intake isnt popping? but steam? hmm k so its timing and a bad fuel mixture correct?
 
Should be about 18 to 20 initial read this and then read the carb white pages and if you can understand it you will have it running like a top.http://www.fugly-racing.com/index.php?pid=6 If its detonating to much advance you dont want to run it like that.


I read it...IF I use 18 initial how do I get 32 total? I only have the 18 mechanical bushing which makes 36.

and to question all this why are others running 24 initial like mad dart?
 
no ITS NOT THE CONVERTER! grr sorry but its not...if the other cam was 16 degrees bigger at 50 and had only a 300 rpm drop theres no way this one at 244 should have a bigger drop..its timing and tuning and ill get it with a little help thanks guys.
 
It doesn't matter what others are running. The only thing that matters is your car.

You have been jacking around the timing, changing cams, and screwing over the carburetor for months trying to get the curb idle set.

Many times we have given you advice and most of the time you ignore it and do some other oddball thing that makes it worse.

I suggest at this point you take the car to a reputable shop and have it all reset correctly.
 
ill set it at what he told me to set it at and get back too you all
 
I read it...IF I use 18 initial how do I get 32 total? I only have the 18 mechanical bushing which makes 36.

and to question all this why are others running 24 initial like mad dart?

Run 16 and settle for 34 total that's not a bad combo
 
I took the intake off and the intake gaskets were wet around the ports and inbetween the water port and the intake and exhaust ports...is this normal? didnt light on fire when I used a lighter, so im thinking oil or water. gaskets didnt seal to well this time..
 
did you read the link i sent you? If your engine builder said its ok to run 32 degrees initial you need another builder. The link I sent you is from a professional race engine builder with years of experience.Let me know if you read it . if not i,m out. good luck.

I run ALL my street cars with the timing locked and 36 degrees of time and have had zero problems. :bs::dontknow:
 
I run ALL my street cars with the timing locked and 36 degrees of time and have had zero problems. :bs::dontknow:

Guess I should sit back and shut up as i guess I dont know what i,m talking about. Sorry disregard my posts.I will quit trying to help where i,m not an expert.
 
holy sht whats happening now??

Look....do you wanna go fast?

do you wanna rip the frukin tires loose when you hit that pedal?
[really, we wanna 'hook' , but you know what I mean]

Set the initial timing to the highest it'll start with.

THEN take a 1/4 thread nut and grind it somewhat of a tear shape using the black bushing as a width reference, knowing that you can't fit wider than the black but you can make one longer in the slot....

Start big then file it down trial n error, checking with the timing light.
do this.

BUT if your initial ends up being 30*, just 'lock it out' at 30* and leave it.
 
How much initial will it start with? 'hot of corse'

this is important.

what else is important here for us, is to know you are on the same page by using the correct terms.


when you 'lock out' a distributor the timing is wherever you set it with the time light and will not change with rpm but only by distributor adjustment, as in no more centrifical advance.

I had to grind down a nut [made my own bushing] in order to get the curve of 8* [my setup 26*initial-34*ful all in by 2200rpm blue/silver spring in a MSD pro billet distributor.

Go back to the first post or the thread we did on this months ago.

He is trying to set the curb idle.
 
Im trying to get the idle not to drop so much when I put it in gear I want it close to none
 
Im trying to get the idle not to drop so much when I put it in gear I want it close to none


Exactly…. And this is why none of this talk about total timing matters.

Initial timing doesn't even matter that much as long as it is in a reasonable range.

12-15-18-22……. You should be able to get your to idle correctly with any of those.
 
Go back to the first post or the thread we did on this months ago.

He is trying to set the curb idle.

I set my timing 1st.
then the idle stop screw followed by the mixture screws till I get the the desired curb idle speed.

when you set the idle screws it's good to have a digital time light w/tach.
as you open them up or close them you will notice a gain or lose of rpm.
 
I set my timing 1st.
then the idle stop screw followed by the mixture screws till I get the the desired curb idle speed.

when you set the idle screws it's good to have a digital time light w/tach.
as you open them up or close them you will notice a gain or lose of rpm.


He doesn't like the drop in RPM when shifting from Park to Drive. That's the big issue. He has already changed the cam trying to get this drop where he wants it.

Im at a loss…. Just about everything has some drop when going from Park to Drive.
 
ok, thanks guys I know what to do now. And I did set it at 24 before I posted this, but I have this popping noise at 1k idle and Im thinking its a lean pop not sure.
 
What converter are you running 74? If it's stock or low stall it'll drop rpm's like that. A loose converter is made for big cams and don't drag down the engine so much.
 
He doesn't like the drop in RPM when shifting from Park to Drive. That's the big issue. He has already changed the cam trying to get this drop where he wants it.

Im at a loss…. Just about everything has some drop when going from Park to Drive.


thats not why I changed the cam, I changed the cam because the low end was not what I wanted
 
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