School me on Stock Eliminator?

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  1. SpeedThrills

    SpeedThrills Well-Known Member

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    I agree, Ramcharger. They aren't handing out the info. They do speak in the "lingo" of their category, for sure.
    When I was a teenager (I'm 49) my neighbor raced in Stock Elim. I later worked for the guy I mentioned b4 who ran the U/SA car. He was a partner in my neighbor's car before that. I partnered with him on a car in the 90's! (Clear as mud?) Anyway, I've been lucky enough to be around a lot of Stocker's. While it's cool getting as much as you can out of stock parts, the definition of "stock" has been stretched a bit over the years. IMO, it's been because of parts availability and, well, I don't think I'll go further. But I will say that it's neat racing other cars w/ the same rules. You can tell whose better.
    Getting to know racer's is the best way to learn. It's a fraternity, to say the least.
    The car you own is usually not the best car to race. Sifting through the classification guide for an odd combo, not going too fast w/ it, and picking a class where you stand a chance if you have to run heads up (unless you're the fastest, which is unbelievably expensive.), is the key.
     
  2. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    Rmchrgr,

    The J/SA national recoed is 11.37.
    The K/SA national recoer is 11.57.

    J/SA Class Index is 12.75
    K/SA Class index is 12.95

    Rule of thumb is a hundred pounds is worth a tenth. That's not ALWAYS true, but is close, more often than not.

    The significance of that is this: There is .2 of a second separating J and K in both records and indexes (indices?)

    Your engine with a 4bbl is factored to 210hp.

    J is 12.50 pounds per hp; K is 13.0 pounds per hp.

    What that means is, you only have to add half a pound per hp to move from J to K.

    "J" is the car's "natural" class, at 12.89 pounds per hp.
    Ideally, you'd only lose about a tenth going from J to K, because you'd only have to add 105 pounds. But, the index is TWO TENTHS slower... making it a better deal.

    Looks to me like K is a MUCH beter deal, for another reason: The shipping weight on that Valiant is ony 2792 pounds. I had a '64 Valiant with a 340 and a 4-speed in it (cast iron 4-speed) and it weighed 2105 with 1/4 of a tank of gas.

    At 12.50 pounds per hp, you will only have to weigh 2,635 (without driver.)

    That is four hundred an seventy pounds less than my 2-door post '64 Valiant weighed.

    I can't imagine how you could legally get iit that light, and you NEED to be that light, strategically, if you're gonna run "J."

    At K weight, you'r Valiant would still only have to weigh 2,740 (not including driver), which is better, but still pretty light.

    It looks like K would be the better deal, and the advantage would be about a tenth of a second, both with regards to the index and the record.

    Food for thought...
    Good luck with this; I think it would be a VERY viable and fun car to build!

    Bill
     
  3. rmchrgr

    rmchrgr Skate And Destroy

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    GBill. The Valiant may even be lighter than you say, like 2,650 but I've never had it weighed. Roll bar, 8 3/4 diff. and iron-headed, iron intake V8 will add pounds, no way around it. Gotta get sneaky about trimming weight. I agree it's viable, I'm surprised there aren't more in class racing. Perhaps the HP factor wasn't favorable until recently. You're right about the records, I must have mis-read the list. Either way, a '65 Valiant with a 273 isn't going 11.37 anytime soon. If it eventually went 11.75 I'd be doing a jig.
     
  4. rmchrgr

    rmchrgr Skate And Destroy

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    Good info Bill. I'm not positive on this, but the Valiant may even be lighter than you say, like 2,650. Never had it weighed, so I can't confirm. I've been looking for shipping weights on the car for a long time, not much on the net or even in the Service Manual. Roll bar, 8 3/4 diff. and iron-headed, iron intake V8 will add pounds, no way around it. Gotta get sneaky about trimming weight.

    I agree it's viable, I'm surprised there aren't more in class racing. Perhaps the HP factor wasn't favorable until recently.

    You're right about the records, I must have mis-read the list. Either way, a '65 Valiant with a 273 isn't going 11.37 anytime soon. If it eventually went 11.75 I'd be doing a jig.
     
  5. Dago Red

    Dago Red Well-Known Member

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    Hey Bill, James is from my area and he has since moved up to Super Stock (SS/LA Duster). I tried to purchase his Valiant, but someone beat me to it. It, IIRC, ran R/SA with the 2bbl and was told that, even though it had a 4bbl option, NHRA said no to it. It never really hit the index that hard, but James was (and still is for that matter) a machine behind the 'ol tiller. For example: eight rounds one night and his WORST light is a .011....footbraking. This thread is starting to worry me: I have a straight, rust free 66 Dart in the shop and a stack of 273 stuff I just couldn't bring myself to get rid of....getting that old sinking feeling again.:cheers:
     
  6. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    According to the NHRA website, the shipping weight of a V100 '65 with the 235 hp motor is 2,707. I don't know whether those cars came with an 8.75" rear, or not.

    But for the record, I am telling you, my '64 V100 2-dr. "post" car, with a '71 340 motor (aluminum bell housing, cast iron 4-speed) weighed 3,105-3,115 on three different sets of scales and it was a BARE BONES car; no options beyond a radio. And, that was with tubing headers, which were lighter than the cast iron 340 manifolds... I was bitterly disappointed that it was so heavy.

    Getting one of these little jewels light enough to run the top of K/SA won't be easy; J/SA is impossible, I think...

    But, you should forget J, anyway, because K is such a much better deal, as I pointed out in my last post.

    It might be helpful if you would take your car somewhere and weigh it. That would give you some idea of which way you need to go.

    Since that car came with solid lifters, it's inconceivable to me that NHRA would require you to run hydraulics. Better check that out with an NHRA Tech in Glendora.

    From the NHRA blueprint specs page:
    235 273 DP 10.5 1-4 Cart AFB- 3853S/SM 3854S/AUTO 1.5 M

    See that "M"? That stands for "mechanical" That is the type lifter required to pass tech with this motor. If it were hydraulic, it would say "H".

    Unless the NHRA Blueprint website is in error, solid lifters are what you will be required to run in Stock. But, I'd call, anyway, just to be sure.

    NHRA Tech in Glendora: (626) 914-7551

    It's always nice to hear it from the horse's mouth... :)

    Bill
     
  7. fireguy12

    fireguy12 Member

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    How would a 66 D-dart run in stock. It cam with a holley carb. I think. anyone run this combo.
     
  8. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    Sit down for this one!!! LOL! You're not going to believe this one...

    The 1966 275HP 273 motor that was put into an A Body '66 Dart SPECIFICALLY to run D Stock at that tume in ONLY lrgal now, as a Super Stock.
    http://tinyurl.com/6fz877

    Go look at the NHRA Classification Guide for 1955 Dodges and you will see that the 375 HP Darts are only listed as eligible for SUPER Stock...

    They took a car that ws purpose-built by the factory for a certain class *D/S) and made it illegal to run that class with it!!!

    I couldn't believe it, so I called NHRA Tech and the person there said that yes, that was the case.

    I asked WHY???? They said call back tomorrow fpr an answer, so I will surely do that.

    That's incredible....

    Oh, and the number for Tech that is in the rulebook is connected to a fax machine. I had to cll their general number and get them to patch me through to the Tech Dept.

    What a way to run a railroad....

    I'll post what I find out tomorrow, about the legality of a 1966 275HP D Dart in Stock. Stay tuned.

    Bill
     
  9. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    xx
     
  10. Petzschler

    Petzschler →Welcome back←

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    375hp? wasn't that a 275hp/273?
     
  11. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    Yuppers; sorry for the typo... the 3 is right next to the 2 and I have fat fingers...
     
  12. rmchrgr

    rmchrgr Skate And Destroy

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    Finally found that weight line in the spread sheet. For some reason, I never saw that guide, would have been helpful if I had found it sooner.

    2,707 is a light car but again I'm not sure how much weight a roll bar or 8 3/4 would add. I wouldn't be surprised if the car ended up close to 3,000 lbs. with gas and me in it.

    According to the auto math handbook, to go 11.9 I need 350hp @ 3,000 lbs. That's 350 hp at the wheels now. Considering a 20% driveline loss, that ends up being around 280 at the wheels. Probably not going to cut it. This is why this is so difficult - you are correct, the car needs to be super light - under 2,800 lbs and I need to make at least 300 or more at the wheels to be competitive even in K/SA. This means I need my little 273 to make around 375 hp with an old iron intake, Carter AFB, unported heads with tiny valves and a small bore. That's some magical cam with only .4xx" of lift!

    How much of that ET is chassis set up, I'm not sure. Caltracs help, but that's about all you get.

    I guess that's why I'm torn - do I go at this project or just take the easy way out and put a stroker in it and have fun. I'm not going to compete as a novice anyway, so as I've said before, I'd bracket race it until I got to be a better racer.

    273 parts are pretty hard to come by too. Ever try finding one of those AFBs?

    Ahhhhhh, choices choices.
     
  13. rmchrgr

    rmchrgr Skate And Destroy

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    I was a little lost there for a sec - I was thinking the shipping weight with the Slant 6 was 2,707 but it's with the V8. This car really does weigh around 2,600 lbs. A roll bar and larger rear wouldn't add that much weight, at least not as much as if you had to add the V8 to that weight as well. Doh!

    Still needs at least 300hp at the wheels though. As with any car, it will be difficult to get to the minimum weight. This particular car is bare bones as it gets right now.

    Not trying to give away secrets here, but I've read that guys do things like use smaller series rear end yokes to save weight and keep their front bearings loose to reduce drag. Cool stuff! I'm sure there's lots of creative ways to accomplish this goal, you just have to look at things in a different light. That's what separates the stocker guys from the others, it's almost zen-like in the approach.
     
  14. dart4forte

    dart4forte FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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  15. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    RMCHRGR said, "This car really does weigh around 2,600 lbs."

    My '64 Valiant V100 with a 340 4-speed and an 8.75" weighed FIVE HUNDRED POUNDS more that on three different sets of scales.

    Better go weigh that car; I think you'll be surprised.

    I'm going to call NHRA again today on the D-Dart for Stock Eliminator issue.

    RE the lifter issue; the NHRA Tech I talked to on the phone was adamant that mechaincal lifters are the correct ones to use in the 235/273 motor, since that's what the blueprint sheet calls for. I don't know anything about NHRA ever requiring hydralics in a motor that came from the factory with solids. I just don't believe that ever happened.

    Angela's K/SA car can be a benchmark for your efforts. If she can run high 11's, (and, she has) then you know its do-able. It would be a lot easier with Larry Hollums onboard, though, trust me.

    Go for it!!!! :)

    Bill
     
  16. SpeedThrills

    SpeedThrills Well-Known Member

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    Remember the weight you can take out of it:
    Lighter rad.
    Wipers
    Heater
    Sway bar (If it has one)
    Undercoating
    Sound deadener
    Exhaust system
    Use lite wheels
    Front runners and slicks are lighter than street tires.
    Spare, jack
    Anything you can remove or modify inconspiciously.

    Getting to know a few racers will help you more than you can imagine. There are the written rules, and there are the known interpretations of them. I wouldn't even start til you get this kind of knowledge. Bracket racing is good to get the racing experience.
     
  17. perfacar

    perfacar Well-Known Member

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    hi, chassis is E.T. motor is MPH. calvert system is a must, along with 6 cyl T-bars, 90/10 front shocks. the correct convertor is crucial to making the car fast!! don't worry about getting down to the bare min weight for highest class. most stockers are heavy.pick the middle class for weight. the car is classed by min weight plus 170 for driver. 2707 =170 =2877 min scaleweight.
    like the guys says, remove all extra items, rear seat, radio, heater, wipers,undercoating, sound deadner under carpets. use l/w wheels, l/w parts in trans. green rear wheel bearings. plus , keep weight at min wgt+30# or scale variations. the idea ,is to make complete car very efficent. it takes time, testing, flogging.
    side note, the 1966 D-Dart is not legal, wasn't enough made, only 50 were made. stock requires 500 min to be accepted. dodge dropped the ball on that combo. the D-Darts were handed out to few dealerships, and racers.
     
  18. hemicop

    hemicop Well-Known Member

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    side note, the 1966 D-Dart is not legal, wasn't enough made, only 50 were made. stock requires 500 min to be accepted. dodge dropped the ball on that combo. the D-Darts were handed out to few dealerships, and racers.[/quote]

    Recheck the rules --- unless I'm missing something, pg 135, sec.9A,para 3--"OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the Official NHRA Stock car Classification Guide. Special runs must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom availible. Applications evaluated on an individual basis, Acceptence will not imply precedent."

    Sounds like a loophole to get just this kind of car in IF someone were to push the issue....
     
  19. SpeedThrills

    SpeedThrills Well-Known Member

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    NHRA will let you run anything they deem ok. Lots of combos running that aren't legal "by the book".
     
  20. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    Dart4forte posted the URL for an excellent website dedicated to D Darts. On it is a lengthy explanation of how those cars came to be, and what happened to the program from a guy who worked on the project at Chrysler.

    These are his words, not mine, "Though there are claims that 50 cars were produced in April of 66', the truth is about 25 or so were
    built. To this day, I have only seen (2) D-Darts race. I have never seen a true D-Dart at any Mopar meets."
    That comes from a guy who was there every day, trying to get these cars onto the drag strip.

    I didn't have a chance to call NHRA back, today (wife got sick), but I'll call in the morning to see if the low production is the reason they're not in the Class Guide. They are in there as a Super Stocker, only, and the NHRA tech I talked to said that the production number rules were the same for eligibilty to run Stock OR Super Stock... so, the mystery deepens. I should know something from NHRA in the early afternoon. Everybody (from NHRA Tech) is in Las Vegas for the national event except one person, and she doesn't come in 'til 10 a.m. Pacific Daylight time. That's noon, for me.

    RMCHRGR's Valiant is a natural J/SA car, which means he could remove weight from the minimum shipping weight for the class, (105 pounds) and run I/SA, or add weight (105 pounds) and run K/SA.

    I/SA 12 pounds per hp 12 X 210 = 2520# + 170# driver = 2690#
    J/SA 12.5 pounds per hp 12.5 X 210 = 2625# + 170# driver = 2795#
    K/SA 13 pounds per hp 13 X 210 = 2730# + 170# driver = 2900#

    The K/SA record and index, both, are two-tenths slower than the J index and record. If you can add just 105 pounds and gain two-tenths on the index, it seems to me that that would surely be the beneficial thing to do.

    In lightening a Stocker, there are certain things you can't do; I don't believe they will allow you to run a lighweight radiator, or remove the back seat.

    Everything else that was suggested sounded legal to me.

    I think that that 235hp/273 combo with its new 210hp factor could be a very competitive combination to run in K/SA.

    Wish I had one.... :)

    Bill
     
  21. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    SPEED THRILLS said, "NHRA will let you run anything they deem ok. Lots of combos running that aren't legal "by the book"."

    And he's 100-percent keyrect!


    Look at this new 2009 Challenger Drag Pack package that they are selling, now.

    One of the featured engines is a 360 Magnum, which never came in a car of any kind, and hasn't even been built for several years!

    As I understand it, it will come with a race block from Mopar, and who knows what heads they'll put on it??? As far as I know, they don't have any decent Magnum heads. Maybe they will now!!! :)

    What horsepower would you think a combo like that might end up with in the Class Guide?

    Whatever NHRA thinks appropriate... LOL!

    The D-Dart issue pales, by comparison.
     
  22. Petzschler

    Petzschler →Welcome back←

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    isn't the 360 magnums used in the "crate engine" class? u can then put it in pretty much any vehicle you want i would think.
    IMO tho.. i think those s~ss racers have more $$ in their engines then most of us have in our ENTIRE cars lol.
     
  23. SpeedThrills

    SpeedThrills Well-Known Member

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    Hey 360Z28: Crates are IHRA, I'm not familiar w/ them.

    Bill: By lightweight rad, I mean factory 6 cyl. Removing rear seat is legal when installing a roll bar.

    Stock Eliminator has been around in it's present form since 1972. (Roughly) This has made changes hard for the "Old School" racer's to deal with. I'm old school, but I understand that things evolve. They used to check to see if interior trim was correct for the model claimed. Tech inspectors knew what they were looking at. (Well, most did. One guy was teching my buddy's 6 pk RR and said, "Ay-del-brock-manny-fold? You got to be shi**in' me!") Today, how many can tell if that 2 bbl carb on a 180 hp 273 is correct?
    I don't want to throw this thread off track. I'm glad the 4bbl 273 is getting some respect (lowered factor). Be careful, though, the factoring system is complex. Check out the NHRA's "Automatic Horsepower Factoring System", You're too quick, you get hit w/ hp. That's a whole 'nother story...
     
  24. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    Well, Speed Thrills is right on again. The rulebook, after saying the interior must remain stock with front and rear seats does say the rear seat can be removed if the area is upholstered when a roll bar is installed. I didn't know that. In defense of my argument that this car will not be easy to get down to shipping weight, I would guess tthat the roll bar may well outweigh the seat it replaces.

    The six-cylinder radiator is a great idea. When Speed Thrills said "lightweight radiator", I was thinking "aluminum," because my best bud here in Conway just ordered one for his Brand-X 427 Rat Motor Stocker. He knows he can't run it in class competition; just wanted it for some bracket racing he occasionally does.

    Some of these 2009 Drag Pack Challenegers may very well end up running in IHRA competition, so the crate motor idea could work for that.

    I'm just wondering if that will happen, though, in view of the fact that you could build a Duster with the same engine for 1/4 the cost, and have just as good a chance of winning. Might not be cost-effective to pay $36,000.00 for a chassis for a crate motor Stocker when you could buy a rolling A-body chassis from an ex Stock Eliminator racer for a whole lot less...

    Time will tell. Gonna be interesting to see what shakes out, with these Drag Pack cars. Lots of potential there!

    Bill in Conway, Arkansas
     
  25. hemicop

    hemicop Well-Known Member

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    I debated back-n-forth over the new Chally Pkg car & finally decided to try to get one. With 9 possible combos to say nothing of using a 2nd Gen Hemi, for SM or GT racing the package offers newer technology for racers, possibly some factory help along with a packqge that already deletes some items, making it technically a stocker. Yes it's expensive, & still doesn't have quite the appeal of an old Challenger but depending on factoring, etc. you still ahve the benefit (?) of a facory built (?) racecar. The '68 cars & SS/AH is beyond most enthusuiasts wallets & those cars won't be around forever. This offers racers a package to run for the next 10-20+ years with the potential of going just as fast eventually as the '68 cars.
     
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