Shop wiring advice?

[Professor Fate]

My shop started out as almost all fluorescent lighting- mostly because I got a ton of 'em for free (I knew guys in the building salvage business). Kind of a pain in the butt, since I can't keep the shop fully heated 24/7 during the winter ($$ on a retirement income), and fluorescents don't like cold starts. Slowly but surely been converting the fixtures over to LED tube bulbs for that reason; but I haven't been overly impressed with the longevity of the LEDs either- doesn't seem too much better than the fluorescents. Ah, well... pick your poison.

 

[MDchanic]

See the response above regarding Faraday cages. I have a pretty good signal outside the building, but damn near nothing inside the building.

And the Mesh system I installed doesn’t offer an outdoor node, so I’m going to buy another indoor node for the “shep”, run the Cat cable, and put RS-485
connectors on each end (I think that’s the right terminology), one end plugged into a node in the house, the other end plugged into the new node out here.

I popped a few sheetrock screws into a piece of 2x8, holding a WiFi router between them, then screwed the 2x6 to the framing above a window, so the router sits in the top of the window and points toward a router in the house. Not the fastest WiFi at about 400' from the house, but it works, and powers the surveillance cameras just fine.

I'd also note that while it is very inexpensive to scrounge salvaged fluorescents and replace the tubes with LEDs, watch out that you get LED tubes that are FCC certified, or at least ones you test first - I bought a whole lot of 4' tubes on Amazon, they work great, but whenever they're on, you can't hear the radio because of the interference.
And, yes, Faraday cage. I get one station. And I don't even like it. One day I'll climb up and screw an FM antenna to the building, and run a ground, but for now I can hear what I want through the interwebs.

- Eric

 

[ProjectBazza]

I popped a few sheetrock screws into a piece of 2x8, holding a WiFi router between them, then screwed the 2x6 to the framing above a window, so the router sits in the top of the window and points toward a router in the house. Not the fastest WiFi at about 400' from the house, but it works, and powers the surveillance cameras just fine.

I'd also note that while it is very inexpensive to scrounge salvaged fluorescents and replace the tubes with LEDs, watch out that you get LED tubes that are FCC certified, or at least ones you test first - I bought a whole lot of 4' tubes on Amazon, they work great, but whenever they're on, you can't hear the radio because of the interference.
And, yes, Faraday cage. I get one station. And I don't even like it. One day I'll climb up and screw an FM antenna to the building, and run a ground, but for now I can hear what I want through the interwebs.

- Eric

That’s one of the reasons I want to hardwire another mesh node out there, as our cameras are currently right on the thin edge of the signal from the house, and thus are pretty hit or miss. They seem to operate based on which moon is rising over Sagittarius, or some such BS….

I’m going to have to start over on my lighting plan, as I forgot to take into account the ductwork coming up from the furnace and (somewhat) spreading across the ceiling, but yeah- I’m going to try and minimize RFI and EMI as much as possible, as I still haven’t been able to shut-off the little Inner Audiophile in my head! Don’t know much about lights, but I know “noisy” ones when I hear ‘em!

 

[ProjectBazza]

My shop started out as almost all fluorescent lighting- mostly because I got a ton of 'em for free (I knew guys in the building salvage business). Kind of a pain in the butt, since I can't keep the shop fully heated 24/7 during the winter ($$ on a retirement income), and fluorescents don't like cold starts. Slowly but surely been converting the fixtures over to LED tube bulbs for that reason; but I haven't been overly impressed with the longevity of the LEDs either- doesn't seem too much better than the fluorescents. Ah, well... pick your poison.

Oh, yeah! I’m all too familiar with that “fluorescent flicker” in the winter, so I’m not even considering them!

Honestly the LEDs we put in the house have been pretty good (I read a lot of gripes about them online, though), but they only have 3 years on them, so we’ll see. I’d prefer to use LEDs in the “shep” as well, but since all of them seem to come from China, how do you choose?

 

[ProjectBazza]

If you have a lot of wire and are using a lot of power, running receptacles on the same wall with separate circuits can be beneficial.

I hadn’t thought of that! My “plan” was to just run one circuit on the east wall, and another on the west wall. However, the west wall will no doubt see the most amp draw….

Thanks!

 

[ProjectBazza]

Only thing else for advice is the black wire goes on the gold screw, white wire goes on the silver screw and the bare wire goes on the green screw!

(LOL!) Reminds me of my nephew when I was helping him with the remodel of his place:

“Uncle Jim, can I connect the little red wire to that bare copper one?”

“Absolutely not!”

“Why not? There’s no power there according to my wiggy…”

(Some people’s kids! )

 

[ProjectBazza]

I was in your spot a few years ago. I wish I'd have put in an outlet every 8-10 feet or so, along with the same for air compressor outlets. Lots of overhead lighting wiring, pre-run wires for the stereo and TV, and wires for the two huge ceiling fans including a line to reverse the fan direction.

I agree with the others, run surface mounts so you can modify at will. In a rare fit of neatness I put all mine inside the walls and now I am stuck with the design.

The building is made of 2x6 “posts” located on 7 foot centers, and my initial layout (when I was going to use Romex) was to put outlets on each one. Most likely I’ll still do that, as it divides evenly into both the length and width of the building, thus making for evenly spaced outlets.

I’m kinda torn on ceiling fans, to be honest! My wife absolutely hates them, and we ripped all of them out of the house when we bought the new place (well, except for one), and with only a 10 foot ceiling in the shop I’m not sure how much benefit I would get out of them.

But it does make sense…..

Thanks!

 

[Inertia]

This is just my thing, but the receptacles on the benches, machinery are all double box (4plug, - each side separate breaker).

On my wall recepticals, the top and bottom plug are on different circuits, (bottom black, top red)
That so you can plug 2 hi amp appliances into wall recepticals without blowing breakers. Just my thing.
Same in kitchens .

Good luck.

 

[ProjectBazza]

I ran mine all in EMT, on the walls since it's a concrete block wall building. I only ran #12 wire to my plugs. If I had it to do over again, I would run at least a 30 amp plug to my back room to plug the wire welder into. My welder is 120V mig with a bottle. It overheats the 20 amp breaker and kicks it if I weld continuously for a while. I've just learned to stop for a bit.

My MIG is 220 volt, and is either 30 amp or 50 (I forget, and I’m in the house now) Regardless, I’d like to buy a small 120 volt welder someday so I can screw-up body panels with even more efficiency and frequency….

I didn’t know 120 volt MIGs could draw that much power, so this is a good thing to know, thank you!

 

[halfafish]

I’m kinda torn on ceiling fans, to be honest! My wife absolutely hates them, and we ripped all of them out of the house when we bought the new place (well, except for one), and with only a 10 foot ceiling in the shop I’m not sure how much benefit I would get out of them.

I use them because my peak is about 16' and set on low, they drive the heat back down to the floor in the winter. I have two of these, 60" each and worth every penny for heating comfort.

And here's another vote for LED lighting. I went from six 8-foot fluorescents to nine 4-foot LED's, the difference is dramatic. I got them at Costco, they were maybe $30 each.

 

[ProjectBazza]

This is just my thing, but the receptacles on the benches, machinery are all double box (4plug, - each side separate breaker).

On my wall recepticals, the top and bottom plug are on different circuits, (bottom black, top red)
That so you can plug 2 hi amp appliances into wall recepticals without blowing breakers. Just my thing.
Same in kitchens .

Good luck.

I was just thinking about this, as @Bodyperson ’s response (above) about running different circuits on the same wall has me going, “Hmmmm!!!”

Thanks!

 

[Inertia]

It's a convenience, but run 14/3 wire steada 14/2.
There's a little "tang" on each receptical that you break off to separate circuits.

It can be annoying trying to solder as the battery charger keeps tripping circuit, not going back, lol

 

[Inertia]

Lighting. . .

Just a reminder of the LED lights I installed last Dec IIRC.
No noise, no failures. No need to turn up brightness, they still can be brighter, very pleased.
Here's the original thread with the Specs ..

Multi voltage, adjustable soft to brilliant LED shoplites

Just finished installing these adjustable 4 ft LEDs in my storage shed. These are set to a coupla klicks from brightest. Rip out ballast, line voltage up to 277. Very nice .

www.forabodiesonly.com

Good luck

 

[Chuter]

This is just my thing, but the receptacles on the benches, machinery are all double box (4plug, - each side separate breaker).

On my wall recepticals, the top and bottom plug are on different circuits, (bottom black, top red)
That so you can plug 2 hi amp appliances into wall recepticals without blowing breakers. Just my thing.
Same in kitchens .

Good luck.

I did something similar, I ran the outlets at different heights, each height a different circuit (2 in this barn, 3 in my previous one). Super easy to see what's plugged into which circuit, and load balance. Both go all the way around the barn. I work alone 99% of the time, so there's a limit to how much power I can use. If you frequently have help, you might want more circuits.

 

[MDchanic]

I can't say that this is something I've learned from experience, as I haven't done it yet, but when I finally get around to finishing my walls, my intention along the workbench wall was to install double-gang boxes for duplex receptacles, every 4', and run a total of four 12ga circuits for the 50' wall, putting 2 in each box, so it would be:
AB CD AB CD AB CD

That's a lot of effort, though, and a lot of wires in each box, so I may end up just doing:
AA BB CC DD AA BB

At 4' spacing, either way it shouldn't be hard to put whatever you're using on different circuits.

Also, get a label maker and label every outlet with its breaker, every lighting run, every breaker inside the panel, etc. Otherwise sometime in the future, you'll be cursing that stupid lazy bastard who installed all that stuff.

– Eric

 

[JDMopar]

I used different color zip ties on every circuit from every breaker. Say, circuit 1 got a purple zip tie on the wire right where it goes out of the breaker box, and another purple one around the connector that fits the EMT to the 1st plug or switch box, and yet another purple one around the wire as it exits the EMT into the gang box. Stevie Wonder could figure out which breaker to cut off to work or to look for to reset. I labeled the breakers on the sticker in the breaker box door with the color for that circuit and location of equipment.

 

[ProjectBazza]

I can't say that this is something I've learned from experience, as I haven't done it yet, but when I finally get around to finishing my walls, my intention along the workbench wall was to install double-gang boxes for duplex receptacles, every 4', and run a total of four 12ga circuits for the 50' wall, putting 2 in each box, so it would be:
AB CD AB CD AB CD

That's a lot of effort, though, and a lot of wires in each box, so I may end up just doing:
AA BB CC DD AA BB

At 4' spacing, either way it shouldn't be hard to put whatever you're using on different circuits.

Also, get a label maker and label every outlet with its breaker, every lighting run, every breaker inside the panel, etc. Otherwise sometime in the future, you'll be cursing that stupid lazy bastard who installed all that stuff.

– Eric

Wow! That would be a lot of work! Nice for a commercial, or professional shop, but way overkill for what I have and would ever need.

However, I did get a little carried away when I re-wired the basement in our old place, and come to think of it, it was really nice having labels on the outlets (got that idea from the outlets at the Dr.’s office)….

I think if I go with two circuits per wall that should be plenty. Just have to think about how I want to break them apart- makes sense to break the tab on the outlets and split them Hi and Low….

The neighbor a few doors down is a commercial electrician, and I’ll get some input from him next time I see him.

 

[ProjectBazza]

It's a convenience, but run 14/3 wire steada 14/2.
There's a little "tang" on each receptical that you break off to separate circuits.

It can be annoying trying to solder as the battery charger keeps tripping circuit, not going back, lol

Can you do that by Code- Have one Neutral for two Hots? (12/3 Romex, for example). Seems to me that this wouldn’t be allowed, as the amps on that Neutral could get too high.

But I will freely admit I know more about 200+ amp, three phase Code/wiring (30+ years of commercial HVAC experience) than I do Residential, so I honestly don’t know.

 

[MDchanic]

Can you do that by Code- Have one Neutral for two Hots?

It used to be code, but I believe in one of the recent updates, it was "retired." (Could be mistaken). Check Mike Holt's page.

If you do do it, you need to put a double breaker on the line, like you would use for a 220 circuit, as if only one half trips, the neutral could still be hot.

– Eric

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Back in the 60's my dads place had 75 watt light bulbs. The problem with them you needed three people to change one bulb.

One to hold the bulb and Two to spin the ladder.

 

[Inertia]

Can you do that by Code- Have one Neutral for two Hots? (12/3 Romex, for example). Seems to me that this wouldn’t be allowed, as the amps on that Neutral could get too high.

But I will freely admit I know more about 200+ amp, three phase Code/wiring (30+ years of commercial HVAC experience) than I do Residential, so I honestly don’t know.

It was code when my electrical contractor wired my commercial building, I followed suit a number of years later at home.
I agree with you concern about overloading neutral, but big heavy extension cables right up to 10/4 does not distinguish a heavier wire for neutral.

 

[gdrill]

Mine is all exposed conduit. As stated above, modifications and additions are easy this way. Plus, you can screw anything into the wall anywhere you like without concern.

 

[ProjectBazza]

It was code when my electrical contractor wired my commercial building, I followed suit a number of years later at home.
I agree with you concern about overloading neutral, but big heavy extension cables right up to 10/4 does not distinguish a heavier wire for neutral.

Ok, I just looked this up, and this is called a multi-wire branch circuit (MWBC), and while it may still be acceptable (I haven't check for current Code yet), it requires the two Hots to have a common shut off, i.e., breaker. Not sure I like that, as I don't want to drop power on Circuit B if/when Circuit A trips....kinda defeats the purpose, as far as I'm concerned. Also, a "common shut off device" means one CB, which also means 240 VAC in that gang box, and I don't know that I want 240 VAC in a box with "just" outlets in it, as I'll likely forget about this whole set-up somewhere in the future, and I could see myself opening up the box (for whatever reason) and in my mind think, "It's only 115 volts". Or if not that, think (in my head) that the phase of the outlets would be the same (IOW, there should never be a voltage potential across the upper and lower terminals).

I'm going to have do some thinking about this.

 

[Bodyperson]

Back in the 60's my dads place had 75 watt light bulbs. The problem with them you needed three people to change one bulb.

One to hold the bulb and Two to spin the ladder.

My dad was a phycologist. Changing light bulbs was easy but the lightbulb had to want to change.

 

[Bodyperson]

Ok, I just looked this up, and this is called a multi-wire branch circuit (MWBC), and while it may still be acceptable (I haven't check for current Code yet), it requires the two Hots to have a common shut off, i.e., breaker. Not sure I like that, as I don't want to drop power on Circuit B if/when Circuit A trips....kinda defeats the purpose, as far as I'm concerned. Also, a "common shut off device" means one CB, which also means 240 VAC in that gang box, and I don't know that I want 240 VAC in a box with "just" outlets in it, as I'll likely forget about this whole set-up somewhere in the future, and I could see myself opening up the box (for whatever reason) and in my mind think, "It's only 115 volts". Or if not that, think (in my head) that the phase of the outlets would be the same (IOW, there should never be a voltage potential across the upper and lower terminals).

I'm going to have do some thinking about this.

Hey, by the way they make wireless 3-way switches now.