NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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- Oct 10, 2008
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It can, especially with a ham fisted approach
The 360 build that has more turns than Willow Springs
- Thread starter Kern Dog
- Start date
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I don't have a spare cam out of an engine but I have a 318 and 360 that are both relatively complete that I can tear down for one.
The heads needed new valve stem seals so I found some locally and brought them to my machinist. The Fel Pro gasket kits I’ve bought usually come with them but they are the umbrella type. Those fit stock heads with single springs but these heads came with dual springs or more accurately… single spring with a damper. These require these type:
.500 over the valve guide and a 3/8” valve stem.
I did a cursory cleaning of the balancer…
It didn’t look OEM here:
Then I looked at the timing grooves.
This director’s out to 32 degrees! I don’t think that I have seen that before on a stock balancer. None that I can recall had anything but a Single timing grooves with the tab on the timing cover.
.500 over the valve guide and a 3/8” valve stem.
I did a cursory cleaning of the balancer…
It didn’t look OEM here:
Then I looked at the timing grooves.
This director’s out to 32 degrees! I don’t think that I have seen that before on a stock balancer. None that I can recall had anything but a Single timing grooves with the tab on the timing cover.
That's why I use a 28oz Snap On ball peen and use soft blows. Lotsa weight and a soft touch.
This engine has a 1990 casting date, maybe they started adding the degree marks toward the end of the LA series? None of the older 318 balancers had this, none of the big blocks ones do either.
I have a friend that is building a 408 from a 1991 block, I'll bet his balancer has the marks too, I'll ask him.
Well, surprise…..
The one on the left is from my engine. The red one is from a 1991 Mopar Performance crate 360/380.
Same stamped in number, 85985.
Same pattern for the timing marks. The recess on the face is in the same spot.
But the “Magnum” has more holes drilled in it to make for the reduced amount of offset balance the Magnum has compared to the LA.
I’m seeing six more holes.
I wonder if one could weld those in to use this balancer on a 360?
Sure, I could buy a new one but I like to use and REpurpose stuff that I already have.
The one on the left is from my engine. The red one is from a 1991 Mopar Performance crate 360/380.
Same stamped in number, 85985.
Same pattern for the timing marks. The recess on the face is in the same spot.
But the “Magnum” has more holes drilled in it to make for the reduced amount of offset balance the Magnum has compared to the LA.
I’m seeing six more holes.
I wonder if one could weld those in to use this balancer on a 360?
Sure, I could buy a new one but I like to use and REpurpose stuff that I already have.
A 91 era MP short block would still be an LA. Mopar didn't even have the production 360 mag until 93
(As per your description of the engine that the 2nd damper came from)
Being as how MP crate motors as I remember we're advertised as "seasoned blocks" that were bored 20-over, that says reman. Is there any cast in dates on the blocks that you have at hand?
(As per your description of the engine that the 2nd damper came from)
Being as how MP crate motors as I remember we're advertised as "seasoned blocks" that were bored 20-over, that says reman. Is there any cast in dates on the blocks that you have at hand?
The engine that the red balancer came from was a Magnum. It had the Magnum intake pattern, the rocker arms on studs, the different balance factor but....NO casting date. Instead, they had a weird coded stamping below the left head on the front. A "1" in the stamping indicated a 1991 or 2001. I assumed it was a 1991. The engine actually belongs to FABO member @RBConvert , we are rebuilding that engine at the same time we are doing mine, both here in my backyard shop...
The engine was standard bore. The machinist confirmed it. That is why I thought it might have been an early production 5.9 that was pulled from stock and used in the Mopar Performance crate 360 program.
I could be wrong about the history but being standard bore, it was never a junkyard engine.
The engine was standard bore. The machinist confirmed it. That is why I thought it might have been an early production 5.9 that was pulled from stock and used in the Mopar Performance crate 360 program.
I could be wrong about the history but being standard bore, it was never a junkyard engine.
I wonder how many of those were built? Or where they came from? Were they service replacements, rebuilt and diverted to the MP program, Junkyard like you said? Picked off the line? There's no 7 digit casting number -dash CID on the driver side or casting date on the passenger side in line with one just above the freeze plugs? I remember the MP catalog at least at one time described them as 20-over and "seasoned blocks" which most likely says used then rebuilt/remanned. Maybe they weren't all that way?
Bobzilla
Well-Known Member
In his build thread the pictures show lack of LA oiling holes to the heads. There is no doubt that is a Magnum block and was no way ever used as an LA build by Mopar.
5.9 stroker build
TT5.9mag
Two atmospheres are better than one
Also on magnums, there were two balancers, one had an integral serpentine pulley, and one had a bolt on pulley. I believe the changeover happened about the same time as obd1 to obd2 which was 96.
It surprised me too. I remember hearing and reading that MP used "seasoned" (a fancy name for an engine pulled from a junkyard) blocks and bored them .020 over. When the machinist measured it and found standard bore, we all were surprised. We thought the used pistons might be worth something to sell but who ever needs a standard piston when doing a rebuild?
Bobzilla
Well-Known Member
There were many different variations of the crate engines and short block assemblies from Mopar.
Some were factory assembly line engines or short blocks right from the engine assembly and were typically standard bore. Any variation on these were simply regular assembly line over sizes. Those were mainly the ones sold as service replacements.
Then there was the many varieties that used aftermarket pistons. These were often .020' oversize bores. These were mainly blocks that I believe came back through regular dealer channels as warranty returns. These went back to different machine shops, not the factory assembly line machine shops.
It was over a week ago that I took a set of valve stem seals to the machinist.
This guy….
He does excellent work at fair prices. The only bad part is that he is not one to do things at a fast pace. He is approaching 70 and mostly retired. He has had the block and heads 2 months, I am one of three engines that he is working on. A friend of mine and fellow FABO member is another one of the three.
Good thing I’m in no hurry.
I’ve heard stories of other guys waiting for months to get their stuff done.
This guy….
He does excellent work at fair prices. The only bad part is that he is not one to do things at a fast pace. He is approaching 70 and mostly retired. He has had the block and heads 2 months, I am one of three engines that he is working on. A friend of mine and fellow FABO member is another one of the three.
Good thing I’m in no hurry.
I’ve heard stories of other guys waiting for months to get their stuff done.
Two months and a week and the man STILL hasn't finished my engine.
What the heck?
I knew to expect S-L-O-W turnaround time but it isn't like this guy is buried in work. He is semi retired and doesn't take walk-in work because he isn't at the shop enough to be there if/when people stop in.
How long have YOU had to wait to get the basic bore/hone/hot tank/cam bearings and swap pistons from one set of rods to another? The heads didn't need much work.
What is most annoying is that I encouraged a friend to use the same machinist and his stuff it taking as long as mine.
What the heck?
I knew to expect S-L-O-W turnaround time but it isn't like this guy is buried in work. He is semi retired and doesn't take walk-in work because he isn't at the shop enough to be there if/when people stop in.
How long have YOU had to wait to get the basic bore/hone/hot tank/cam bearings and swap pistons from one set of rods to another? The heads didn't need much work.
What is most annoying is that I encouraged a friend to use the same machinist and his stuff it taking as long as mine.
Well, nearly THREE months and the 360 is back home.
$950 got me a .040 bore and hone, hot tank, cam bearings installed, pistons swapped to the old rods, refresh the heads that weren't really bad anyway, resurface heads .009 to get them flat again and....well, the distributor/intermediate shaft bushing installed. Keep in mind, this was labor only. Some shops supply the valve stem seals, cam bearings and other stuff.
The crank was not serviced since it was fine, the bearings were clean but will be replaced anyway. Add in the cost of a crank kit and this could another what....$300-350? Everything has shot up in price so I did expect an increase.
Me and fellow FABO friend @RBConvert both got our engines back today....Mine a 1990 360, his a 2001 5.9.
The blocks look the same but the degree of the builds will be quite different. Both will use Hughes roller cams and shaft mounted rocker arms but from there, our engines become quite different. I'm going fairly low dollar....Stock #308 heads, approximately 9.4 compression, Holley 750 Vacuum secondary carburetor. We will both be using an Edelbrock RPM AirGap intake and headers. If mine tops 380 flywheel HP, I'd be impressed and satisfied. His may top 500 HP. I'll let him tell the specifics on his build here:
5.9 stroker build
$950 got me a .040 bore and hone, hot tank, cam bearings installed, pistons swapped to the old rods, refresh the heads that weren't really bad anyway, resurface heads .009 to get them flat again and....well, the distributor/intermediate shaft bushing installed. Keep in mind, this was labor only. Some shops supply the valve stem seals, cam bearings and other stuff.
The crank was not serviced since it was fine, the bearings were clean but will be replaced anyway. Add in the cost of a crank kit and this could another what....$300-350? Everything has shot up in price so I did expect an increase.
Me and fellow FABO friend @RBConvert both got our engines back today....Mine a 1990 360, his a 2001 5.9.
The blocks look the same but the degree of the builds will be quite different. Both will use Hughes roller cams and shaft mounted rocker arms but from there, our engines become quite different. I'm going fairly low dollar....Stock #308 heads, approximately 9.4 compression, Holley 750 Vacuum secondary carburetor. We will both be using an Edelbrock RPM AirGap intake and headers. If mine tops 380 flywheel HP, I'd be impressed and satisfied. His may top 500 HP. I'll let him tell the specifics on his build here:
5.9 stroker build
There will be some hiccups and mistakes along the way here. It has been several years since I've built an LA series engine. I have more experience with the big blocks. Between these two engine types, there are some similarities and some diferences.
I do like the factory roller cam in this one. The cam retainer plate at the front is a great thing. I'm not fond of that weird hidden oil gallery plug on the left (1357) side though. In the late 90s, I helped a buddy install a 360 in this Valiant.....
He built the engine but since it was his first V8 in many years, he missed a few things. He had the shop just hone the cylinders since bore taper was under .003". When we installed it, it ran but knocked and had extremely low oil pressure. He suspected a bad crank so we pulled it and tore it down. He got another crank and was ready to swap it when I noticed the cam bearings all looked terrible. He took the block back to the shop and had them put in new ones....yeah, he tried to get by with the originals and they looked all chewed up. Keep in mind I did NOT build this mess, I joined in midstream and did what I could to help!
New crank and bearings, new cam bearings so WE reassembled it after testing bearing clearance with Plastigage....a practice that he didn't do the first time around. It started and ran but still knocked and had low oil pressure. Essentially, money was spent to see no difference. It had maybe 15-20 psi at cold idle with 20w50 oil. He called the machine shop, the only guy there that really knew Mopars asked him if he put in the oil gallery plug on the left side. "Of course I did!" my friend said. He did not know about that hidden one that is only accessible with the intake manifold off. The problem was, the machine shop pulled all the gallery plugs before putting the block in the hot tank so my friend didn't know to reinstall one there.
THAT plug surely caught others by surprise.
To cap it off, once the plug was put in, the oil pressure was great and the car hauled ***. That engine is now in THIS car of mine.....
It will be coming out to reside in this car:
The black Dart will be getting the engine I'm building here and now.
KB pistons...
A 360 and a 5.9....
By the way...the orange paint that Mopar Performance put on the crate engine here sure is tough. The 360 of mine was painted black and the paint is really thin.
Here I am installing that dreaded hidden gallery plug...
With my 440 and 383 builds, the camshaft is always a fight to install when new cam bearings were installed. I didn't recall encountering this with the few 360s I've worked on so I test fitted the Hughes cam that was in this engine before. It spun over fine until I slipped it in all the way. I think that was because when I installed the rear cam plug, I used Gaskacinch around the hole and some of it dripped into the rearmost cam bearing surface. I'll have to get in there and clean that a bit before going much further.
Lots of bolts to clean. I was thinking of painting the stained intake the engine color....
Instead, I may sand blast it and it the color is consistent, I'd just use a flat clear coat on it. If not, maybe spray it with Krylon "Dull Aluminum" then a flat clear.
I think you'll like the color that I'm going to use on the long block.....
Here is how it glows on my 440/495:
I do like the factory roller cam in this one. The cam retainer plate at the front is a great thing. I'm not fond of that weird hidden oil gallery plug on the left (1357) side though. In the late 90s, I helped a buddy install a 360 in this Valiant.....
He built the engine but since it was his first V8 in many years, he missed a few things. He had the shop just hone the cylinders since bore taper was under .003". When we installed it, it ran but knocked and had extremely low oil pressure. He suspected a bad crank so we pulled it and tore it down. He got another crank and was ready to swap it when I noticed the cam bearings all looked terrible. He took the block back to the shop and had them put in new ones....yeah, he tried to get by with the originals and they looked all chewed up. Keep in mind I did NOT build this mess, I joined in midstream and did what I could to help!
New crank and bearings, new cam bearings so WE reassembled it after testing bearing clearance with Plastigage....a practice that he didn't do the first time around. It started and ran but still knocked and had low oil pressure. Essentially, money was spent to see no difference. It had maybe 15-20 psi at cold idle with 20w50 oil. He called the machine shop, the only guy there that really knew Mopars asked him if he put in the oil gallery plug on the left side. "Of course I did!" my friend said. He did not know about that hidden one that is only accessible with the intake manifold off. The problem was, the machine shop pulled all the gallery plugs before putting the block in the hot tank so my friend didn't know to reinstall one there.
THAT plug surely caught others by surprise.
To cap it off, once the plug was put in, the oil pressure was great and the car hauled ***. That engine is now in THIS car of mine.....
It will be coming out to reside in this car:
The black Dart will be getting the engine I'm building here and now.
KB pistons...
A 360 and a 5.9....
By the way...the orange paint that Mopar Performance put on the crate engine here sure is tough. The 360 of mine was painted black and the paint is really thin.
Here I am installing that dreaded hidden gallery plug...
With my 440 and 383 builds, the camshaft is always a fight to install when new cam bearings were installed. I didn't recall encountering this with the few 360s I've worked on so I test fitted the Hughes cam that was in this engine before. It spun over fine until I slipped it in all the way. I think that was because when I installed the rear cam plug, I used Gaskacinch around the hole and some of it dripped into the rearmost cam bearing surface. I'll have to get in there and clean that a bit before going much further.
Lots of bolts to clean. I was thinking of painting the stained intake the engine color....
Instead, I may sand blast it and it the color is consistent, I'd just use a flat clear coat on it. If not, maybe spray it with Krylon "Dull Aluminum" then a flat clear.
I think you'll like the color that I'm going to use on the long block.....
Here is how it glows on my 440/495:
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Looking good!! I know you probably know, but don't forget about the small core plug under the rear main cap. That's another one that'll ruin your day.
Machine shop forgot oil plug?
Machine shop forgot oil plug?
I’m trying to find a low dollar way to install the harmonic balancer. For big blocks, I use this:
It is a 3/4” bolt with 16 threads per inch. I crank it in until it bottoms out then spin the nut against a washer against the balancer and it sides into place.
The LA And Magnum blocks need a longer bolt. The threads need to be about 1 to 1 1/4” further up the shank. ACE hardware had nothing. I’m going to try a couple construction supply stores next.
I’ll need paint too as I only have half a can left.
When I painted the 440/495 short block, I used about half a pint. I want to spray three engines next… the 360, my friends 5.9/408 and my 5.7 Hemi I bought to replace the original engine in my 2007 Truck…
Seriously, how much longer can I expect this one to stay together?
It is a 3/4” bolt with 16 threads per inch. I crank it in until it bottoms out then spin the nut against a washer against the balancer and it sides into place.
The LA And Magnum blocks need a longer bolt. The threads need to be about 1 to 1 1/4” further up the shank. ACE hardware had nothing. I’m going to try a couple construction supply stores next.
I’ll need paint too as I only have half a can left.
When I painted the 440/495 short block, I used about half a pint. I want to spray three engines next… the 360, my friends 5.9/408 and my 5.7 Hemi I bought to replace the original engine in my 2007 Truck…
Seriously, how much longer can I expect this one to stay together?
I had the same problem on a slant. When I found a 3/4-16 bolt long enough, the threads were only about 1-1/2" (not enough) and the rest was smooth shank. I went to a really good fastener store and bought a piece of all-thread instead. The good news, it worked like a champ. The bad news, I had to buy a 36" piece to get any at all. I cut it into about 5-6 pieces, keeping one for myself and giving the rest away. I double nutted the back end to hold it still and ran down the balancer with another nut and washer.
Ha, ha…
“All thread”…. That is what I’ll be doing too. Grainger was the only place that had short in stock….12” for nine bucks. Of course it wasn’t in stock but they should have it by Monday. There was another place on the other side of town that had 36” sections for $26 but we didn’t need this today.
Your double nut idea would work but I might just weld a single nut to the end for the same result.
Onto The intake…. Edelbrock RPM AirGap, the popular choice for many:
This engine sat with water in it due to blowing both head gaskets.
The owner got pissed and just pulled this engine and let water sit in it.
He was not interested in show, he only cared about function so this engine was not kept clean when it ran. After he pulled it he cared even less.
Plenty of grunge along with orange, rusty looking grime inside.
I don’t know how much it matters but check out the port alignment here…
This isn’t some chinesium knock off, this is an Edelbrock.
“All thread”…. That is what I’ll be doing too. Grainger was the only place that had short in stock….12” for nine bucks. Of course it wasn’t in stock but they should have it by Monday. There was another place on the other side of town that had 36” sections for $26 but we didn’t need this today.
Your double nut idea would work but I might just weld a single nut to the end for the same result.
Onto The intake…. Edelbrock RPM AirGap, the popular choice for many:
This engine sat with water in it due to blowing both head gaskets.
The owner got pissed and just pulled this engine and let water sit in it.
He was not interested in show, he only cared about function so this engine was not kept clean when it ran. After he pulled it he cared even less.
Plenty of grunge along with orange, rusty looking grime inside.
I don’t know how much it matters but check out the port alignment here…
This isn’t some chinesium knock off, this is an Edelbrock.
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