I agree unless he has done some major lighting he isn't that low. He also needs to consider sub frame connectors if he is really thinking bb.
The Definition of "MuscleCar"
- Thread starter LJS30
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I agree unless he has done some major lighting he isn't that low. He also needs to consider sub frame connectors if he is really thinking bb.
cudaspaz
Well-Known Member
Anything that can spank a stock production car of the same make/model with leaps and bounds due to lots of go fast mods particularly from the 60-70's.
Ahh, reminds me of the days when NASCAR used real production cars and some red neck ingenuity.
Ahh, reminds me of the days when NASCAR used real production cars and some red neck ingenuity.
green1
Well-Known Member
Yeah, when Nascar would allow a hemi to race.
375inStroke
Well-Known Member
I'll go along with that. This means that a 350 SS Chevelle is not a muscle car.
375inStroke
Well-Known Member
So my '69 Charger R/T is not a muscle car. 4000#/375HP=10.7
375inStroke
Well-Known Member
Crap
grassy
Well-Known Member
...there also has to have a certain amout of cool around it..that Maverick/Comet and the Pinto with the 455..even though they are cool, are not musclecars..however, the Maverick did come in a muscle car-themed trim called the Grabber. What the Maverick was best know for was the /6 engine that would start no matter how much abuse you lumped on 'em....you would see a lot of them arounds farms...and even good conditioned ones don't make nearly the $s as the Duster/demon.. there was on low miles one here going for 1500 w/new paint..not sure if it ever sold..
375inStroke
Well-Known Member
tomt966
Well-Known Member
My 68 dart 2 dr is right around 2850.
grassy
Well-Known Member
They are called coffee can rice rockets...and...you can put a severe amount of money into those puppies and they will still depreciate unlike our Duster, if we keep it in good nick, willl appreciate 
375inStroke
Well-Known Member
Why aren't Max Wedge cars considered the first Muscle Cars? Huge engine, multiple carbs, mid-size car, a real hood scoop, unlike that thing on the GTO, and the first ones came out in '62.
To answer the OE question......
Muscle cars were regular cars that were equiped with large, powerful engines that often came with higher than normal gear ratios. (But not allways since big blocks had the torque needed to power the cars very well without a high gear ratio.)
IMO, the GTO back in the day may have gotten the title of first muscle car....and with good reason, but, if you go back in time and look at how the even in the 50's the big 3 started getting the engines to produce alot of power by compare to the earlier engines in a big way.
Chrysler came out with the early HEMI's and installed them in the 300's @ 1 hp per cube. That was enormous power back them. This started the HP wars.
Muscle cars were regular cars that were equiped with large, powerful engines that often came with higher than normal gear ratios. (But not allways since big blocks had the torque needed to power the cars very well without a high gear ratio.)
IMO, the GTO back in the day may have gotten the title of first muscle car....and with good reason, but, if you go back in time and look at how the even in the 50's the big 3 started getting the engines to produce alot of power by compare to the earlier engines in a big way.
Chrysler came out with the early HEMI's and installed them in the 300's @ 1 hp per cube. That was enormous power back them. This started the HP wars.
LJS30
Well-Known Member
You guys make some good points, though I disagree with some of you in regards to your definition of muscle especially when it comes to factory performance. I guess I would have to call my car a hot rod then because it wasn't given anything from the factory.
Muscle is relative, I agree with that. I thought my 70 Challenger R/T 383, 4sp, 3.91 sure-grip was great. Had no power steering, brakes, or nothin'! I still remember the first time I drove it. (In 1978)
But, my neighbor had a 69 RR w/a six pack. When it was new, there was a problem w/ the end carbs. They would stick open, and when he jumped on the Schuylkill Expressway one time in Philly, he had to quick-think-what-to-do! How about sitting on the side of the highway, w/ a lift-off hood car, closing your six-pack carbs?! NICE! - That was muscle to be respected!
I bought my 87 5.0 Mustang new. In the late 80's, it was a rocket. It ran a best of 13.95 stock. There weren't many new cars that could do that then. They had been building junk since '72, w/ a few exceptions. Relatively, it was fast! I still own it. It'll run low 12's and I can drive it anywhere. But there's a lot faster stuff out there.
My newest will be my 71 Duster w/ a 360, 727 and a 4.10 gear. Will it be a muscle car? I'll find out!
But, my neighbor had a 69 RR w/a six pack. When it was new, there was a problem w/ the end carbs. They would stick open, and when he jumped on the Schuylkill Expressway one time in Philly, he had to quick-think-what-to-do! How about sitting on the side of the highway, w/ a lift-off hood car, closing your six-pack carbs?! NICE! - That was muscle to be respected!
I bought my 87 5.0 Mustang new. In the late 80's, it was a rocket. It ran a best of 13.95 stock. There weren't many new cars that could do that then. They had been building junk since '72, w/ a few exceptions. Relatively, it was fast! I still own it. It'll run low 12's and I can drive it anywhere. But there's a lot faster stuff out there.
My newest will be my 71 Duster w/ a 360, 727 and a 4.10 gear. Will it be a muscle car? I'll find out!
LJS30
Well-Known Member
You know though, it really is relative because there is ALWAYS something and someone out there faster.
Musclecar = "Factory" built Hot rods!!!
The 55, 56 and 57 Hemi 300's were the first Muscle cars, I remember seeing an ad for an early 300 and it had Muscle in the title and I think that is where the name came from.
The name musclecar didn't become well know til the 64 GTO came out and I think it was the insurance companies that started categorizing them as Musclecars.
That's pretty much the way it is, cars like my Fish, my Dart, your car and every other A-Body that started life as a slant 6, 273 or 318 car were sold as economy cars and that is all they are no matter what power plant we have in them. They may have muscle now but they are concidered Street machines, Pro-Street, Hot Rods or what ever you want to call them but to say they are a real Musclecar is a little far fetched. To me that somewhat degrades the real Musclecars. You can stick a Hemi in a Dodge Cricket but it doesn't make it a Musclecar, it's still a Cricket.
The 55, 56 and 57 Hemi 300's were the first Muscle cars, I remember seeing an ad for an early 300 and it had Muscle in the title and I think that is where the name came from.
The name musclecar didn't become well know til the 64 GTO came out and I think it was the insurance companies that started categorizing them as Musclecars.
That's pretty much the way it is, cars like my Fish, my Dart, your car and every other A-Body that started life as a slant 6, 273 or 318 car were sold as economy cars and that is all they are no matter what power plant we have in them. They may have muscle now but they are concidered Street machines, Pro-Street, Hot Rods or what ever you want to call them but to say they are a real Musclecar is a little far fetched. To me that somewhat degrades the real Musclecars. You can stick a Hemi in a Dodge Cricket but it doesn't make it a Musclecar, it's still a Cricket.
mikedevore
Well-Known Member
i wasn't talking about ricers. the new gen HEMI's are pretty stout! lets see, my wifes 05 magnum r/t weighs 4100 pounds, 345 ci, & runs as fast as my 1969 340 dart swinger, 3200 pounds did. if you look at the srt stuff, you will see that they will more than run with the old "muscle cars". the only thing about ricers are the short fuses before something blows up. there is no comparison to the v-8 engines whether its old or new.
demon seed
The Original Demon Seed
My definition of a "Muscle Car" is easy, when I listen to it especially if it's got a lumpy cam then I get a woody. I'm pretty sure that only V8's have done that to me, mind you there was that 3.8 turbo Grand National that almost caused the condition to surface but then "nothing".8)8)
Terry
Terry
LJS30
Well-Known Member
I agree. However if I would get crazy, save some money, and stick in a nice beefed up 360 in my 74 Dodge Dart I think the label of economy car would be right out the door.
daredevil
Well-Known Member
I think then it would be a street machine. My car is a street machine even though it packs a 500. If the factory hemi would have been in it it would be a muscle car though.
homecloned
Can't re Member
Max wedge cars were truely bad to the bone, but they were built for racing at the track.
Yes big powerfull engines were around in the 50's. In big heavy cars.
Would you consider a Imperial of Fury a muscle car? You know the ones with the T-N-T and Magnum 440's. I wouldn't.
Put that same engine in a Coronet 500 without the Bee package. Now would you consider that a muscle car?
I guess it comes down to the question at hand. What do you consider a Muscle Car or what defines a Muscle Car?
SpeedThrills, you brought up some memories when you mentioned the Schuylkill expressway. I was born in Reading and lived in the area untill 1980. :happy10:
Yes big powerfull engines were around in the 50's. In big heavy cars.
Would you consider a Imperial of Fury a muscle car? You know the ones with the T-N-T and Magnum 440's. I wouldn't.
Put that same engine in a Coronet 500 without the Bee package. Now would you consider that a muscle car?
I guess it comes down to the question at hand. What do you consider a Muscle Car or what defines a Muscle Car?
SpeedThrills, you brought up some memories when you mentioned the Schuylkill expressway. I was born in Reading and lived in the area untill 1980. :happy10:
I through economy out the window on my car years ago. :cheers: I'm lucky if I get 8 miles to the gallon, and that is if I keep my foot out of it. I drove my car about 3 miles west of me where it is unpopulated with a divided highway to work out a few bugs and I used 5 gallons there and back. Granted, there were a "few" hole shots involved. :happy10: I don't think it qualifies as an economy car anymore but I still wouldn't consider my car a Muscle car either, Pro Street? yes!
The term Musclecar didn't start getting used on modified cars until this decade, I don't know how that really got started. Back in the 70's, 80's and early 90's the term Musclecar was only used in reference to factory muscle like the LS6 Chevelle, Hemi Cuda, 6pk Roadrunners, 340 Demons, Boss 302 Mustangs etc. If you came to a show with your big block Valiant and said look at my Musclecar, you would get laughed out of the place.
And that is what makes "Hot Rodding" the car so much fun!
100% agree! I'm so with that. I call my Duster a hot rod. (Or street machine) It is what it is, a modified /6 car to a 318 with some go fast parts. It's fun, but truly NOT a muscle car. I like the "Factory Built Hot Rod" from above. Excellent! I use that very line myself when people ask at work or such.
It is what it is!
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