Turbo Slant Setup

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JeffTheMarine

JeffTheMarine

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So I have been reading all over the web about building a turbo slant. I do not plan on ever racing this engine and I am mostly wanting to help increase my fuel mileage/ moderate acceleration increase/ and a small power increase. I don't have any misconceptions about this being some 10 second vehicle or anything along those lines so that's not a big deal. I have read about the boost referencing of the manual fuel pump and what not but it seems like for my setup I don't really need that. I plan to keep my stock 2bbl carter and super six manifold.

1:I need to know how to set up my 2bbl Carb for a blow through setup or if I should just spend the money and buy a 350CFM 2bbl Holley but either way how would I set that up for a blow through set up

2:I am still trying to figure out exactly how I need to "adjust" the wastgate so I can control my boost pressure from inside the truck. Ideally if I could make some kind of mechanical turn knob to increase/decrease my boost pressure that would be ideal. I plan to run a boost gauge in the cab to monitor everything.

3: I plan to run an intercooler that has the inlet and outlet on the same side and run them both out the drivers side with the intercooler mounted in front of my radiator behind my grille. (I will post some picture of my idea tomorrow when I have the time)

4: I am an extreme neat freak so everything and I mean everything will need to be mounted routed and wired in as clean and organized a manner as possible.

5: I plan to use a Garrett turbo out of a Turbo 2.2L engine just for the record. Also if there is someone out there that can "weld" cast iron and can attach a turbo flange to a stock manifold please PM me because I am having one hell of a time finding someone in my area.

All this will be going into my 83 Stepside pickup with a 225 Slant and a Super Six setup. Also I recently just got done installing an A833OD trans that I pulled from the junkyard. When I calculated my mileage I am actually getting worse now with the OD vs the Granny low 4 speed and I think that is just because I have to warm my truck up completly before I go anywhere otherwise the damn thing spits and sputters like hell. Once it's warm though it's ok. Choke is a pos.... Before you go and tell me to go post this on .org because it's not an A body I realize that but there is a lot of good knowledge on this site and a lot of people turboing slants. Also I own my fair share of A bodies.


Jeff
 
JeffTheMarine said:
So I have been reading all over the web about building a turbo slant. I do not plan on ever racing this engine and I am mostly wanting to help increase my fuel mileage/ moderate acceleration increase/ and a small power increase. I don't have any misconceptions about this being some 10 second vehicle or anything along those lines so that's not a big deal. I have read about the boost referencing of the manual fuel pump and what not but it seems like for my setup I don't really need that. I plan to keep my stock 2bbl carter and super six manifold.

1:I need to know how to set up my 2bbl Carb for a blow through setup or if I should just spend the money and buy a 350CFM 2bbl Holley but either way how would I set that up for a blow through set up

2:I am still trying to figure out exactly how I need to "adjust" the wastgate so I can control my boost pressure from inside the truck. Ideally if I could make some kind of mechanical turn knob to increase/decrease my boost pressure that would be ideal. I plan to run a boost gauge in the cab to monitor everything.

3: I plan to run an intercooler that has the inlet and outlet on the same side and run them both out the drivers side with the intercooler mounted in front of my radiator behind my grille. (I will post some picture of my idea tomorrow when I have the time)

4: I am an extreme neat freak so everything and I mean everything will need to be mounted routed and wired in as clean and organized a manner as possible.

5: I plan to use a Garrett turbo out of a Turbo 2.2L engine just for the record. Also if there is someone out there that can "weld" cast iron and can attach a turbo flange to a stock manifold please PM me because I am having one hell of a time finding someone in my area.

All this will be going into my 83 Stepside pickup with a 225 Slant and a Super Six setup. Also I recently just got done installing an A833OD trans that I pulled from the junkyard. When I calculated my mileage I am actually getting worse now with the OD vs the Granny low 4 speed and I think that is just because I have to warm my truck up completly before I go anywhere otherwise the damn thing spits and sputters like hell. Once it's warm though it's ok. Choke is a pos.... Before you go and tell me to go post this on .org because it's not an A body I realize that but there is a lot of good knowledge on this site and a lot of people turboing slants. Also I own my fair share of A bodies.


Jeff
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I think you might be better off building (fabricating) a 90-degree, short-radius, exhaust pipe to attach to your existing, stock, cast iron exhaust manifold, and mounting your turbo to that "elbow." That would alleviate the necessity of welding on the cast iron manifold, a piece that is notorious for cracking in normal usage... I can't imagine that welding on it would make that any better. I'd HOPE that a pickup truck would have a fairly roomy engine compartment, and would accommodate this 90-degree pipe.

Having said that, I need to quantify my comments with THIS disclaimer: I have never owned a turbochaarged vehicle OR a slant 6, before. About 2 years ago, I, and a racing partner, decided we'd build a turbo slant 6 (he had no experience with them, either) so we started trying to educate ourselves as to the vagaries of turbocharging in general, and, as it applies to slant 6's, specifically. We've literally made a religion out of trying to understand the whys and wherefores of this operation (slant 6/turbos) and have learned some things along the way, but there's still a mountain of information we don't know.

So, take my comments/information, with that in mind. I am ANYTHING, but an expert when it comes to this stuff.

I do feel that I have some things to offer though, but if someone who actually has hands-on, practical experience with this subject reads something I wrote that is inaccurate, or misses the mark, PLEASE do us all a favor, and correct me. I'll appreciate it, and so will Jeff.

Now, to get to what I THINK I know about this:

First off, as you've heard many times, I am sure, an engine is just an air pump. Well, so is a turbocharger. Because they are going to be both deasling with the SAME air, there needs to me some correlation in the amount of air that they are expected to deal with.

You want to put a turbocharger off a 2.2-liters (134 cubic inches) motor, on an engine that is 70-percent larger 3.7-liters, (or 225 cubic inches.)

As a novice in the turbo business, I am not speaking from experience, but, that seems like a lot to ask of a turbo that relatively small compared to the engine it's going to be installed on. In short, it seems to ME that you're going to need a turbo off a bigger OEM application. (Like a 3.8-liter Buick Grand National.)

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I'd think this 2.2 turbo would be in danger of over-speeding, trying to handle the exhaust from an engine 70-percent larger than the one it came off of, and also would run out of breath REALLY early (like 2800-3,000 rpm).. but then, maybe not...


Turbo's create heat when they compress the air, but it is generally accepted, I think, that under 10 pounds of boost, an intercooler is not necessary, or even desirable.

A better anti-detonation "crutch" would be a water/methanol injector, such as a Snowperformance "BoostCooler." They have a boost referenced sensor that turns the spray on at some pre-adjusted (by you) boost level (usually about 3 pounds of boost) and the spray into the intake charge is atomized with a jet, and takes a lot of heat out of the compressed air, on its way to the carburetor.

I am not familiar with a driver's seat adjustable waste gate, but at the low boost-levels you are talking about running, I am not sure you'd need something like that. Set it on 10 pounds and forget it...

The original, mechanical fuel pump can be boost-referenced to provide added fuel pressure by running a small (1/8") line from the carb hat to the pump, so that the back side of the pump has real-time information as to how much pressure it REALLY needs to overcome boost pressure in the carb. About 6 pounds over the level in the intake, is adequate.

As far as which carb to use, and what modifications they would need to be used in a blow-thru application, I am not going to be much, if any help. I don't have experience with modifying the pertinent circuits inside to deliver the appropriate increases in fuel necessary when an engine goes on boost, but I can tell you one thing: I don't believe you can get away with running an un-modified carb of ANY kind, with that much more air going through it (due to the forced induction.)

You're going to see a significant increase in available torque, even with only 5 pounds of boost, and it takes a lot more fuel to produce that power.

Having said that, I will say that, IF you can keep your foot out of the firewall, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see better gas mileage from the boosted motor. That is not at all uncommon, in my limited experience.

One thing that is VERY important, is to be extremely careful not to allow much total spark advance under boosted conditions. Nothing will kill a turbo motor as fast as too much spark advance. I am talking sbout spark advance UNDER BOOST. Eighteen degrees (total) is a lot....

Yeah; normally-aspirated 340s like 34 degrees, total... That much will kill a turbo'd slant six in a heartbeat. Be VERY careful on that score.

Keep us posted on your build; it's an interesting one!:D

As a reference point, although this is definitely apples/oranges, I stuck a Vortech centrifugal supercharger (not THAT different from a turbo) on my almost stock 360 Magnum V8 and went from 102mph in the quarter to 118, and from 13.35-seconds (e.t.) to mid 11's, with only 10 pounds of boost.

Five pounds of boost in your truck will feel like a V8... a strong one.

Worth doing...

Hope this helps!!!
 
Jeff Bill decided he didn't need the turbo manifold that I have so if your still interested in it its available I just need to tack together my turbo header and I'm hoping to do that this weekend you will probably need a T3 TURBO with a internal wastegate
Aaron
 
I was thinking about doing this as well. Anyone who's done so, will I feel a significant difference? What kind of HP are we talking about?
 
What kind of t3 turbo are we talking about? I am definitely interested in. Please pm me with information to get a hold of you and pricing and what not.

Thanks
Jeff


srixon4406 said:
Jeff Bill decided he didn't need the turbo manifold that I have so if your still interested in it its available I just need to tack together my turbo header and I'm hoping to do that this weekend you will probably need a T3 TURBO with a internal wastegate
Aaron
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Well the whole reason behind running a smaller turbo is to get it to spool faster. The articles I have read on alpar and .Org said because you run at such a low rpm that you run a smaller turbo to run your rpm range around 15006 to 4500. I never usually push mine above 4500. There were two two turbos they used one being a TE04 Mitsubishi and the other being a garrett t03. The garrett is substantially larger and from what I read on dodge garage has a maximum potential of running up to 26lbs. I figure with the engine I have I will run around 8 to 10lbs max. I plan to build a whole other block specially for running boost. I plan to o ring and stud the head and run around 9:1 or 9.5:1. Then run a maximum of 12lbs. I really don't plan to go hog wild. The main reason I wanna runthe studded and o ring block so that I can have an engine to last. The truck it will be in is my daily driver and will stay my daily driver so I need it to be reliable with the added power. That's the reason I only plan to run around 10lbs. Do you really think that intercooling it is not going to matter. That's why I was thinking to run the 9.5 compression because I figured the intercooler would prevent any problems with detonation. I have seen the write up where they ran a constant 8lbs straight into the stock 2bbl and run it from the turbo. No intercooler no BOV no boost referenced fuel line or anything. And that was with a 2.2 turbo on a bone stock Slant. I personally know nothing about setting up a carbon for a blow through setup other than using a phoenoleic or however its spelled floats because the brass ones have the problem with crushing under the pressure. I have never had any experience with turboing anything so I want to make sure I am doing it right so I don't blow anything up.

Thanks for all the help Bill and Aaron
Jeff
 
Yah Jeff this is Bill and himself first turbo build and our first slant six experience keep doing research and try and ask questions if u need to read me turbo build thread I tried to document everything so the next guy could do the same
Hanger 18 mods is the article on the web for the blow through mods its pretty easy I bought a carb done already but I ended up going back through it and I'm glad I did because I found a thing or two that wasn't right but if your going to run a two barrel they say U just need to do half the mods
I'll message U this weekend on the manifold
Aaron
 
I appreciate the info and the link on the carb set up. I know that is a huge huge part of the set up and running of the whole turbo set up and what not. Fuel delivery is a very important part I personally think at the very top if not the top in setting up any engine in general. You can have the most amazing engine setup by any engine genius and if you don't deliver the fuel correctly then you can burn the engine into a pile of molten goo or you can have an engine that doesn't run period which turns out to be nothing more than a heavy hunk of steel and iron.


Jeff
 
Has anyone had any experience with the TD04LR off of the 2.4 SRT-4? Any thoughts on that as opposed to the Garrett? Does anyone know the model of Turbo that is on the 3.8 Buick GN?
 
salinasjoel said:
Has anyone had any experience with the TD04LR off of the 2.4 SRT-4? Any thoughts on that as opposed to the Garrett? Does anyone know the model of Turbo that is on the 3.8 Buick GN?
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Like I pointed out in a previous note, I am ANYTHING BUT an expert when it comes to turbos and their proper sizing/application, but look at this:

The SRT-4 turbo you are considering, is coming off a 2.4-liter engine that has a cubic inch displacement of only (2.4 X 61) 146 cubic inches.

It's an air pump.

You want to install it on a 225 cubic inch slant 6... another air pump... (3.7-liters,) which seems like more that a little mis-match in the amount of air it will be asked to provide for the 6. That's a FIFTY-FOUR percent difference in the amount of displacemt you're going to ask this turbo to feed.


However, there are other considerations which make this installation not as bad as it would seem at first blush. The SRT-4 cylinder head/cam setup is a highly-efficient mover of air, with 4 valves per cylinder; a totally-different breathing situation from a slant 6 which has ports and valves that are far too small for 225 cubic inches.

So, it might not be as much of a mis-match as it appears, on the surface.

In a worst case scenario with this 4-cyl. turbo on a slant 6, you MIGHT encounter a situation wherein the engine outstrips the turbo's ability to deliver air in sufficient quantities, with the result that the engine runs out of breath at an rpm that is too low for your expectations (like, maybe, 4,000 rpm.) Another caveat would be the possibility of over-speeding the exhaust impeller when that 225 tries to shove TOO MUCH hot air through a (maybe) too-small turbo.

I don't know if that's correct... somebody with REAL, hands-on experience, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know what the correct nomenclature is for the 3.8-liter Buick (Grand National, or T-Type) turbo, but I do know that they have been used on slant 6's to good advantage. Tom Wolfe put one on a nearly stock 225 in his Dart and went 12.95 at 104mph.

Here's the video:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPe_vHwZsF4"]Slant Six Turbo 1970 Dodge Dart 1/4 Mile pass - YouTube[/ame]

I think that turbos and slant 6's work very well together. You don't need 35 pounds of boost to go amazingly fast...
 
Bill Dedman said:
I think that turbos and slant 6's work very well together. You don't need 35 pounds of boost to go amazingly fast...
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Agreed... 35lbs is not at all what I am looking for. This not my daily driver but it is a car I drive and a car I take small road trips on 350 to 400 miles. I don't want to compromise that with an unreliable situation that may blow up in my face no pun intended. I simply want to be able to put the throttle wide open and feel it go. I've considered a swap for a small block but there is something about a turbo 225 that gets me all excited. Clifford manifold and edelbrock carb are good to go I was just going to throw a header on and thought hey why not turbo it instead.
 
salinasjoel said:
Clifford manifold and edelbrock carb are good to go I was just going to throw a header on and thought hey why not turbo it instead.
Click to expand...

Well, it depends on how fast you want it to be....

A Clifford manifold and header would give you a performance increase, to be sure.... but a turbo installation will make it a whole new car...

Good luck. I don't think you will see any reliability issues with a slant six, as long as you keep the boost below 10 pounds.

Just my 2-cents...
 
Well the other idea that I have had to go with it and I have always thought it would be a good idea for a higher boost application and the only thing I was thinking about it may have problems with though is that it may be too large and take too long to spool under lower RPM situations. The turbo I was looking at though is the CT26 that was used on the inline 6 3.0L Toyota Supra engines. I figured though that a turbo off a 3.0L would be almost perfect for a 3.7. Undersized still but larger so that it should take care of what I am looking for. I need to research them a little more and everything before I definitely get into it.


Jeff
 
Ill chime in on my ultra low buck turbo 6 install. I used a 3.0L Toyota Supra Turbo, CT-26. They are all over the place as people usually ditch them for bigger ones. I got mine for 40 bucks. The wastegate is set to 8-9 psi from the factory. Good enough for me. Another guy runs one and says you dont need a boost referenced fuel pump, just put the biggest needle seat you can in the carb. You can vary the boost by running a bleeder valve inside the cab, you bleed boost pressure out of the wastegate and you can literally run more boost than the wastgate will allow in a closed loop. My manifold is just a 2.5 inch U bend that comes up from the stock exhaust. Take it to a muffler shop and give them the measurements and they can put a T3 flange on one end and the proper 2 bolt exhaust flange on the other. Mine puts the turbo about even with the valve cover and the output is about at the water pump level. I dont think the CT-26 uses a T3 flange, I just made one from the bolt pattern. I run a carb hat and put the blow off valve on the far end of that hat so its past the carb intake, made more sense to me than putting it half way on the boost pipe. The vacuum advance is still referenced off the intake so at boost its gonna be at 0 vacuum but at idle, it still should show big vacuum. a 2.2 might be a little small, but itll spool very fast at low RPM but then will start to really spool past its "island" while blowing off the wastgate. TRy and get a turbo from a 3-4L motor. That SRT-4 might work as its designed for big power and RPM's but they will be more expensive than the old ones. Look at a few of my posts, they may give you a better idea of what Im talking about. 9PSI max boost is still like 70% more power! And run a low numeric rear, like a 2.76-2.93 ( I got one for sale ;-))
 
JeffTheMarine said:
Well the other idea that I have had to go with it and I have always thought it would be a good idea for a higher boost application and the only thing I was thinking about it may have problems with though is that it may be too large and take too long to spool under lower RPM situations. The turbo I was looking at though is the CT26 that was used on the inline 6 3.0L Toyota Supra engines. I figured though that a turbo off a 3.0L would be almost perfect for a 3.7. Undersized still but larger so that it should take care of what I am looking for. I need to research them a little more and everything before I definitely get into it.


Jeff
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Bingo, Devil Dog! Ooh Rah!
 
pishta said:
Ill chime in on my ultra low buck turbo 6 install. I used a 3.0L Toyota Supra Turbo, CT-26. They are all over the place as people usually ditch them for bigger ones. I got mine for 40 bucks. The wastegate is set to 8-9 psi from the factory. Good enough for me.
Click to expand...
This is perfect for me and exactly what I would be looking for. Are you running an intercooler with it? Is there any way you can post a pic of your engine compartment? Also what kind of carb and intake manifold are you running? Sorry for all the questions but I will likely be hitting the junk yards soon looking for a Turbo so I'll have something to do this winter. Thank you for all the info. Also sorry Jeff I am not trying to steal your thread, its just exactly the info I was looking for too.
 
Here are a few pics. https://picasaweb.google.com/68pishta/Motor?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCK317onw0YOmowE&feat=directlink

Super 6 intake, stock exhaust log, DIY 2.5 16G U bend, Holley 350 off a 63 Ford truck, no intercooler (no room, dont need one for 9 PSI. as it doesnt get that hot at that low boost) I drilled the PVR's out to .076 I think, they are the small holes in the power valve socket to richen up the power circuit. Seal up the choke lever hole in the carb. Ebay blow off valve (careful on what model you get, the uber cheap one doesnt hold a vacuum through its adjuster, this one does with an O ring or teflon tape) Boost referenced fuel pump (may not need it just get a performance sized needle seat, like a .103) header wrapped 3" flex exhaust pipe to the 3" exhaust. CT26 is oil and water cooled(optional) trying to plumb the water cooling now. Oil supply is from behind the sender off a street T, return is a 3/4 dump straight into the side of the pan above the oil line. Air cleaner will be a very fine steel mesh cone off a short 45 from the 3.5 inch turbo intake. Carb hat is an old GMC diesel piece, looks like round pizza box with a big horn on it. enjoy!
 
pishta said:
oh yeah that diff is for sale too, TQ is sold...
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I don't know how much fuel pressure a stock /6 mechanical pump delivers, but since they don't have an external pressure regulator, I am thinking, probably, 7psi, max.

If your carb is running boosted (blow-thru,) and you are running 9 pounds of boost, a bigger needle and seat will do nothing to keep that 9 pounds of boost pressure from overcoming the 7 pounds that the fuel pump is delivering and you'll have NO fuel flowing into the carburetor float bowl under 9 pounds of boost.... none...

BANG!

If your float bowl runs dry (and, it undoubtely will, under those conditions,) a lean-out is bound to occur, and boosted engines don't much like a too-lean mixture... piston-killing detonation is inevitable... and instant!

I truly admire your "econo-build" and would like to copy it, one day, but I believe you need to re-think this idea that you can run a non-boost-referenced fuel pump with 9 pounds of boost... or, even 5.

That's a chance I wouldn't take, especially in light of the simple and cheap fix (a small line from the carb hat to the backside of the pump diaphragm).

If I'm missing something here, please tell me... I'm inexperienced at this, but I'm just sayin'... :glasses7:
 
Pishta I like the set up you have and the J pipe idea doesn't seem too bad. However all that weight from the turbo sitting on a j pipe holding all that weight on top of the fact that it will be constantly subject to heat fluctuations seems like the first weakest post will be those two flanges that are welded. I feel like they would crack pretty easy. That and it seems like that turbo should be bolted to somewhere on the block via a support bracket of some kind to keep it from rocking or moving. If it does rock or move at all it is only going to further that problems with those two welds cracking. Just my thoughts. I do like the set up though and I am thinking that more and more the CT26 is going to be the smartest route to go. I still think I would like to get it welded straight to the bottom of the manifold though. I have heard about people having problems with them cracking on older manifolds but I have personally never had any problems with the newer style ones and I have been told that I guess they have extra ribbing or something along those lines to support them. I will have to look into that more. I am also going to check the flange style out on the CT26. Frank I think you are right though about the boost referencing. I would rather spend another hour or less adding that tube then spend all the extra time and money into building a whole other engine because I blow the first one up. Better safe than sorry right?

Jeff
 
JeffTheMarine said:
Frank I think you are right though about the boost referencing. I would rather spend another hour or less adding that tube then spend all the extra time and money into building a whole other engine because I blow the first one up. Better safe than sorry right?

Jeff
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I THINK the turbo-mounting-flange-on-the-manifold setup is what Aaron has; not sure...

I think that, no matter where or how you mount the turbo, it's going to need some support brackets for help in stabilizing that weight; turbos are heavy....

I WAS being "frank" about the dangers (to your engine) relative to blowing it up from too little fuel pressure, but my name is "Bill"... LOL!

I'm glad you seem to have gotten the message, though; that's the important thing.:cheers:
 
Sorry about that Bill, that is my mistake. If you notice the time of my post was around 4 in the morning. I usually have trouble sleeping at night and what not thinking straight. I was also thinking about some advice I had gotten from Frank that is the distributor for Aussie Speed here in the US. My mistake though. I apologize.


Thanks again
Jeff
 
JeffTheMarine said:
Sorry about that Bill, that is my mistake. If you notice the time of my post was around 4 in the morning. I usually have trouble sleeping at night and what not thinking straight. I was also thinking about some advice I had gotten from Frank that is the distributor for Aussie Speed here in the US. My mistake though. I apologize.


Thanks again
Jeff
Click to expand...

Hey, Ralph... LOL!

It was a joke... I'm not sensitive about stuff like that... at all.

Frank is a great guy, who has been very helpful to me. He IS the "go-to" guy for AussieSpeed products and was the source of our intake manifold.

I'll tell you what kind of a guy he is.... He was in my garage one day and noticed that my brand new drill press "head unit" was still lying on the floor...

While I was in the house, answering the call of mother nature, either he, or his better half (Cinda) picked that head unit up (VERY HEAVY) and installed it on the vertical post, where it was supposed to be! Frank LOOKS like he's a weight-lifter... and could easily have accomplished that, but he gave Cinda the credit. She does NOT look like a weight lifter... at all.

Go figure...

I share your insomnia, and am often on this webpage spouting my 2-cents (and, probably overpriced, at that...) at 4 in the morning.... yawn.

Maybe it's contagious.....???????????
 
I'm using a clifford intake what carb would anyone suggest. I was going to go with a 500cfm edelbrock before I decided to turbo charge. Is this overkill now or will it still add performance.
 
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