47 degrees initial time? help!!!

[Lustle]

She should run like a raped ape now! When I bumped the intial on my car up from 16-22 she picked up a ton of off throttle power. You'll be surprised what you can pickup with some good old fashioned tuning!

 

[crackedback]

Did you guess at how much to weld? There is a chart floating around with slot length and number of degrees. Probably should have suggested you search for it.

You should be able to idle the engine at 850 rpm with no issues and minimal drop when in gear.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Did you turn the idle speed down after you added the 3 more degrees of idle-timing.I bet you did. Or you will. That would be the wrong thing to do.......
All in at 2200 might work with premium gas. It's kindof the expensive thing to do IMO. For me, that represents about $800 per year. I run a two stage curve, with 28* at 2800, and then slowing it down to 32/34*(aluminum heads) at 3400. This lets me run 87E10 on 10.7 to 11.2Scr. I think I have saved between $10,000 and $12,000 in fuel costs since 1999,just by not running premium.
Running a lot of initial can work in an automatic car with a loose TC, but does not work in a stick car. The gas pedal becomes a kindof on/off switch. It makes smooth driving at low rpms very difficult. So I run 14 to 16 initial, and have tuned the Vacuum advance to bring its load in, proportional to what the butterflies are doing. Smoooooth.No more whiplash complaints from passengers.
So, my most excellent timing is 14/34/58, while yours is 25/33/?My V-can brings up to 26 additional degrees in, off idle and depending on the vacuum signal. By about 2200 rpm say, the Vcan is giving it all she's got and the mechanical might be 21. Together that is 21 +26 =47* of cruise timing. When I stomp it, it drops out to 21.If I ease into it,it will run somewhere in between, depending on how hard I'm easing. Sweet!
My cam is 276/286/110 and .549/.571lift. This is 230*@.050

 

[MoparOrNokar]

Did you guess at how much to weld? There is a chart floating around with slot length and number of degrees. Probably should have suggested you search for it.

You should be able to idle the engine at 850 rpm with no issues and minimal drop when in gear.

Spot on cracked back. Minimal drop and im ideling at 900 clean in nuetral. Took a short test drive. Now its onto a steering problem lol. Couldnt even get in the gas it was so wandery. Thanks again guys

 

[crackedback]

Nice. You can always pop the distributor apart later and round file some material out to get a bit more mechanical if needed.

Cars/engines are much snappier of idle when they have the initial timing they want. People that total time stuff miss out on this because the old books say it just doesn't matter. A lot of "carb" issues are really rooted in a poor timing profile. Congrats on the tuning success.

 

[MoparOrNokar]

So if the idle is rich and thats what is allowing allthe initial time, whats the best way to lean the idle circuit? Mixture screws? Primary butterflies? I still havent touched the curb idle screw AJ. Using the secondaries now to set idle. I like the way u have the 2 step curve set up. How are u tuning the v-can?

 

[MoparOrNokar]

Forgot to mention that i am smellomg stong fuel in the exhaust at idle

 

[crackedback]

I'd adjust the idle with the primary side speed screw.

Check float level if possible, make sure fuel isn't dripping from your boosters.

 

[AJ/FormS]

So if the idle is rich and thats what is allowing allthe initial time, whats the best way to lean the idle circuit? Mixture screws? Primary butterflies? I still havent touched the curb idle screw AJ. Using the secondaries now to set idle. I like the way u have the 2 step curve set up. How are u tuning the v-can?

Forgot to mention that i am smellomg stong fuel in the exhaust at idle

-As to the strong fuel smell,You need to be more specific.Is it raw gas you are smelling, or is it an aweful stink that burns your eyes?
-Raw fuel smell is well,raw fuel.Iit is possible for fuel to pass through the engine and it not being burned.There is only so much air being processed through the engine at any given time.That air can only combine with a specific amount of fuel.If for some reason, more than that is passing through it will be unburned.
-So, get eyes over the throttle bores and see if you can spot an obvious dribble. The dribble could be at the main boosters,the accelerator-pump nozzles or,and this one you can't see, the lowspeed circuit.
Dribbles are bad.This is uncontrolled fuel and leads to no good thing.From the boosters,dribble is probably the PV (powervalve). It may be the wrong calibration.Dribble from the pump nozzles, is probably a missing or dirty,check valve at the top of the pump-well.If you can't spot the dribble, then it's probably under the plate. This would point to a ruptured PV, or a too-high fuel level.So the next check is, as crackedback said,your fuel level.Some would say this should be the first check.
-But; it may not be in the primaries at all.Some carbs have idle fuel going to the secondaries. If you crack the secondaries, this circuit can begin to flow.Sometimes this circuit is not adjustable, except by closing that secondary throttle. So check for that.
-And the excess fuel may not even be entering from any normal source. It's always a possibility that the carb has an internal leak. Slim chance on a Holley or similar type.
-If you cannot find uncontrolled fuel,then you may have to readjust the T-port sync.; and I think cracked mentioned that already.

Now, if it's a burn your eyes out stink; this is a totally different story.I have found that this is usually attributable to incorrect timing.
Don't be messing with the low-speed calibrations yet.Your combo should easily run on the oem calibrations.
Personally, I believe the 25* of idle timing is too much. And not just a little too much.But you are mostly ignoring me on that, so now you are learning your way. I find nothing wrong with that. Different people learn in different ways.That is how I learned. But it was many many hours of doing and redoing and redoing,that I was hoping to spare you from.
I believe 18/32/54 is a really good set-up for an aluminum headed hi-compression street-combo. And the two-stage curve(having 28*@2800,and 32* not til later,perhaps 3400) will allow you to successfully run a lesser grade fuel without destroying the engine, and with minimal performance loss. Later when the V-can tuning starts you will see why.
The V-can, can be set up to be an automatic variable timing device. A good can might have 22 degrees that you can add or subtract, from the driver's seat through the gas pedal, at almost any time you choose. So with an automatic and say a 1800 rpm stall TC, then at 1800rpm your mechanical timing may have climbed from an idle timing of 18 to a now-timing of 23. This gives a good power-timing number, if the engine accepts it. But the Vcan may add up to its max 22 degrees under a light cruise, so that could total 40*.All performance engines I have tuned,like at least 40* of cruise timing at 1800rpm. Your combo maxed out at 33*@2200 might have 28 at 1800, and it will not like the extra 22 degrees, which now total 50*. You will have to run a much smaller can; like 12* , to get the 40. But that's not the end of it. With so much initial(25), and a big Vcan, the timing may not drop out fast enough with throttle tip-in, to prevent pinging. So you end up disconnecting it.If you are a city only kindof guy, this may not be a big deal. But when you hit the highway, that missing Vcan, will be sorely missed at every fill-up, cuz 33* at cruise rpm is just over 60% of what the engine actually might want.When you give her what she wants at cruise rpm, you can back way out of the throttle to maintain speed. If you then run a decent AFR at that rpm, you can get excellent fuel mileage.
As an example, I once tuned my 367 to get 32 mpgUS at 75mph, with a 223*cam. IIRC that cam was 270/276/110. Yeah it had overdrive, so your results might vary,heehee.

 

[MoparOrNokar]

AJ dont get me wrong. Im not ignoring you at all. This is just alot of info to take in and absorb. As a young guy i appreciate all the valuble information. I do believe this is a dying art and i am eager to learn. I found this article about initial, mechanical, and vac advance. What are your thoughts about v-can tuning at the end of the page? Later this week i am going to break the dist back open and widen the slots a little so i can take some initial out. For reference here is my complete combo

360 +.o4
Cp116's
Decked block-pistons are .005 in the hole
Xe274 cam
Comp roller rockers
Stock eddy heads 63cc chambers
Rpm intake
Holley 750 dual feed single pumper
727 with 1800 stall
391 rear gear
26" tire

 

[AJ/FormS]

Your combo is nearly identical to my current combo, 'cept I run a stick.
Your starter gear is 9.58; mine is 10.97.but your TC may even it up, for a bit, and 10.97 is more than my combo needs.I run a GV overdrive, and 10.97 is what falls out with a 3.55 x .78 = 2.77 hiway gear. with a 230* cam, my S doesn't like less hiway gear, otherwise I'd be running 3.23s and have a 9.98 starter gear. So I am sure your 9.58 plus TC will be a very nice street starter gear.
Your cam 274/286/110 with lift .488/.491; mine 276/286/110lift .549/.571
Your stall might be a lil low.Time will tell.If your tires spin, it will be fine.
275s will not be big enough, with street suspension. If it hooks the 1800TC will be a lil soft off-the-line, but only below about 15 mph.With 3.91s you might not even notice it,unless it bogs.
The rest is a wash.
My car is a 68 FormulaS clone and scales at 3650 meinit.It went 93 in the 1/8 first time out,first successful run of 4. I immediately retired it and spent the rest of the day in the stands with my son.It hasn't seen a track since.
I thought I had a fast car in highschool. A 70 Swinger 340/4spd/3.55s . It went 98 .........in the qtr..............And it was 3310 meinit(10% lighter).Compared to this S,well,really, there is no comparison.

You are gonna love yours!

 

[MoparOrNokar]

Your combo is nearly identical to my current combo, 'cept I run a stick.
Your starter gear is 9.58; mine is 10.97.but your TC may even it up, for a bit.
Your cam 274/286/110 with lift .488/.491; mine 276/286/110lift .549/.571
Your stall might be a lil low.Time will tell.If your tires spin, it will be fine.
275s will not be big enough, with street suspension.
The rest is a wash.
My car is a 68 FormulaS clone and scales at 3650 meinit.It went 93 in the 1/8 first time out,first successful run of 4. I immediately retired it and spent the rest of the day in the stands with my son.It hasn't seen a track since.
I thought I had a fast car in highschool. A 70 Swinger 340/4spd/3.55s . It went 98 .........in the qtr..............And it was 3310 meinit.

You are gonna love yours!

Sorry i forgot to link the article lol

Tuning Tips

 

[rigger3006]

lots of of overtinking goin on .run it!

 

[AJ/FormS]

I can't endorse that entire article, cuz my experience is limited to SBMs, and to just a small window of those.But it does seem to reinforce what I have learned.I'm not real keen on their Vcan set-up, other than it's a good place to start, after the mechanical is thoroughly sorted out.Don't be in a big rush to hook the can up.It will just confuse the sorting out of the mechanical timing.
With your combo being so close to mine, I can say with a lot of confidence,that the timings as described above,in post #84,will be very nearly spot-on.I can also say that 36* is way too much, and you won't hear the detonation at 34*. 30* is safe on 87E10. I have found 32* more than adequate on 87E10, for street. I have brought it in as early as 3200 without detonation.
I am tuned for 87E10, cuz that's all we can get around here, and cuz it is readily available everywhere, and cuz it makes adequate street power, and cuz it saves me wheelbarrow-fulls of cash. Oh and cuz on the street, I never could notice the difference on premium with extra timing.I was never in it for more than 5 or 6 seconds, and this 367 spins 325DRs to past 65mph,on the street.And that would be speeding, and if caught,which would eat into my wheelbarrow-full of saved cash!Here in Manitoba, they like to take away your license too...

 

[moper]

Glad you worked it out. Good job.