Help fill holes in Trunk lid

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harrisonm said:
Not everybody has a MIG welder in the garage. Here is what I'd do if I were in your shoes. Taking the trunk lid off is a great idea. It will be easier to put filler on a surface that can be positioned to be parallel with the ground as opposed to perpendicular to it. Grind around each hole with 80 grit about 1-2 inches out from the hole. Then, with a small ball peen hammer, tap each hole so that it is indented a little. Put a piece of tape on the back of each hole so that the filler will not go through the hoe. Stand the trunk lid up so that the part with the holes is parallel to the ground. Mix up a little bit of filler at a time and spread it over the indented holes. You are far better off mixing up small batches and only doing a few holes at a time. DO NOT USE REGULAR FILLER NOW. It could crack / pop out eventually. I'd use an All Metal filler. They go by different names, but any store that sells body work supplies will know what you mean. All Metal type fillers have a high metal content. They mix and spread like regular fillers, but they will be much more resistant to shrinkage and cracking. Then sand and finish off as normal. You can use regular filler for the final finishing now. Done properly, this repair will last a LONG time. Before I had a welder, I repaired holes like this all the time.
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I have used All Metal a few times over weld seams, it seemed to work well.
 
GeorgeH said:
I have used All Metal a few times over weld seams, it seemed to work well.
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I always use a skim of All Metal over my weld seams. Unless I am lucky enough to get that elusive perfect, and invisible, seam.
 
72bluNblu said:
This thread is turning into a flipper’s handbook on how to screw over the next guy that buys the car.

.
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Sponsored by Earl Scheib and Captain Hackenwhack. world class leaders at the forefront of autobody refinishing and repair.
 
72bluNblu said:
Take the trunk lid off and take it to a welder.
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Not everyone can afford to do that. And / or he may want to do it himself. I am not suggesting that he slap Bondo and fiberglass over rust holes. And I hardly think that doing a repair like this will turn his car into a parts car. That is a bit of an exaggeration. I have owned the 69 Barracuda I have now for about 30 years. When I restored it the first time, about 28 years ago, I did not have a welder, so I fixed several places as described above. After 20 years, the lacquer paint job started to show its age so I blew it apart a few years ago and painted it with modern base clear. All of the places I had carefully repaired 20 years earlier with All Metal were still intact and holding up fine. It may not be the "right" way to fix it, but it will certainly work, and it won't make his car a parts car.
 
GeorgeH said:
I have used All Metal a few times over weld seams, it seemed to work well.
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harrisonm said:
I always use a skim of All Metal over my weld seams. Unless I am lucky enough to get that elusive perfect, and invisible, seam.
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All Metal is a great product, and it’s all I use for body filler. It’s what I used 25+ years ago when I did bodywork at my old man’s shop, and it’s what I use now.

But it’s not for filling holes, not like the trim holes the OP is trying to deal with. Yes, it will, no, it’s not the right way to do it. It won’t rust out from the back like you get with bondo because it doesn’t absorb water, so, the hole doesn’t get worse. Which makes it better than all the other suggestions so far other than welding. But it’s still not a permanent repair.

Welding is the right way to do it. Lead will work too, but lead to fill holes that size is a pain, even if you can do leadwork. But not a lot of people can. All Metal will leave the hole for the next guy. It won’t be worse, but it’ll still have to be fixed again later.

harrisonm said:
Not everyone can afford to do that. And / or he may want to do it himself. I am not suggesting that he slap Bondo and fiberglass over rust holes. And I hardly think that doing a repair like this will turn his car into a parts car. That is a bit of an exaggeration. I have owned the 69 Barracuda I have now for about 30 years. When I restored it the first time, about 28 years ago, I did not have a welder, so I fixed several places as described above. After 20 years, the lacquer paint job started to show its age so I blew it apart a few years ago and painted it with modern base clear. All of the places I had carefully repaired 20 years earlier with All Metal were still intact and holding up fine. It may not be the "right" way to fix it, but it will certainly work, and it won't make his car a parts car.
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If a welder charges him more than a couple hundred bucks he’s overcharging. That repair should take less than an hour if the trunk is removed from the car and paint stripped from the spots needing to be welded.

If he can’t afford that, he can’t afford to paint the car. Or fix it again later. Have you checked the price of All Metal lately? Ain’t cheap.

If the OP was closer, I’d tell him to prep the holes for welding and bring the trunk by my place, I’d weld them up for a Guinness donation. Probably not worth 12 hours of driving though.
 
FYI all... George H is a professional body guy and has been for decades...... Highly recommend you take his advice.
 
harrisonm said:
Not everyone can afford to do that. And / or he may want to do it himself. I am not suggesting that he slap Bondo and fiberglass over rust holes. And I hardly think that doing a repair like this will turn his car into a parts car. That is a bit of an exaggeration. I have owned the 69 Barracuda I have now for about 30 years. When I restored it the first time, about 28 years ago, I did not have a welder, so I fixed several places as described above. After 20 years, the lacquer paint job started to show its age so I blew it apart a few years ago and painted it with modern base clear. All of the places I had carefully repaired 20 years earlier with All Metal were still intact and holding up fine. It may not be the "right" way to fix it, but it will certainly work, and it won't make his car a parts car.
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I had 4 holes about that size on my jeep tailgate welded up 2 years ago, 100 bucks.
 
72bluNblu said:
All Metal is a great product, and it’s all I use for body filler. It’s what I used 25+ years ago when I did bodywork at my old man’s shop, and it’s what I use now.

But it’s not for filling holes, not like the trim holes the OP is trying to deal with. Yes, it will, no, it’s not the right way to do it. It won’t rust out from the back like you get with bondo because it doesn’t absorb water, so, the hole doesn’t get worse. Which makes it better than all the other suggestions so far other than welding. But it’s still not a permanent repair.

Welding is the right way to do it. Lead will work too, but lead to fill holes that size is a pain, even if you can do leadwork. But not a lot of people can. All Metal will leave the hole for the next guy. It won’t be worse, but it’ll still have to be fixed again later.



If a welder charges him more than a couple hundred bucks he’s overcharging. That repair should take less than an hour if the trunk is removed from the car and paint stripped from the spots needing to be welded.

If he can’t afford that, he can’t afford to paint the car. Or fix it again later. Have you checked the price of All Metal lately? Ain’t cheap.

If the OP was closer, I’d tell him to prep the holes for welding and bring the trunk by my place, I’d weld them up for a Guinness donation. Probably not worth 12 hours of driving though.
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just wait, someone is gonna suggest a solder gun and solder next.
 
72bluNblu said:
If the OP was closer, I’d tell him to prep the holes for welding and bring the trunk by my place, I’d weld them up for a Guinness donation.
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I'm glad to hear you say that. I think that all the time. Someday, a person will have a problem within a few hours of where I live, and I'll help them. BTW, I really do totally agree that welding is the best way to do it. That is what I'd do.
 
gdizzle said:
I should update: I do not have welding equipment, so I am looking for options that dont involve welds. I do have some Steel Stick epoxy. Can that work and be sanded/painted?
thanks for all your help you guys rock.
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if you really can't get someone to mig those holes up, then you should look into panel bonding glue and a metal plug the same size as the hole even if you have to enlarge it a bit to get a good fit on the solid plugs. Backed by a other(washer that is larger glued to it from the back side as a backer and to help glue to the panel.) I have helped a guy in the field do that on his 270 to gt trim and it's been 5 years since he did that and it still looks fairly good. he did a crappy paint job ion the repair though and on really hot days you can see a very very faint ring if you look hard enough.
 
Brass and flux
66Dvert said:
if you really can't get someone to mig those holes up, then you should look into panel bonding glue and a metal plug the same size as the hole even if you have to enlarge it a bit to get a good fit on the solid plugs. Backed by a other(washer that is larger glued to it from the back side as a backer and to help glue to the panel.) I have helped a guy in the field do that on his 270 to gt trim and it's been 5 years since he did that and it still looks fairly good. he did a crappy paint job ion the repair though and on really hot days you can see a very very faint ring if you look hard enough.
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That's the problem with panel bond on the outside of a car. The seam raises up when the materials expand and contract at different rates, but there will be those that swear it's the best thing since sliced bread.
 
GeorgeH said:
Brass and flux

That's the problem with panel bond on the outside of a car. The seam raises up when the materials expand and contract at different rates, but there will be those that swear it's the best thing since sliced bread.
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OP said no welding equip available. I was going for the safest almost correct way of doing this. brass sucks big time trying to prime over it, I'd use a map torch and lead it over the plug first. Paddling lead was my very first job at a body/restoration shop and it ain't really that hard just finicky on how many seconds you have to work with it in the correct stage of softness and properly cleaned and tinned is a Must.
I'm not telling how many tries my boss made me do on a junk panel but once I found the sweet spot by looks it was easy. (just didn't know about all the toxic stuff so be aware of it and wear a GOOD respirator and gloves.)
I would not think twice about using panel bond to put in floor pans and structural areas and you are right about the difference between glue and steel expansion so it makes it hard to recommend it for that, but if you can get a really tight fitting plug of metal with a larger backer that is glued to the plug you can minimize the expansion/contraction if no glue goes into the plug/hole area, yeah that is hard to do but it can be done and then finished properly it helps.
 
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you could use panel bonding glue but by the time you got all the stuff you needed it is still cheaper to take it to someone and weld the holes. You need to be my neighbor, If you bring it to me and have a beer to share I'd weld it for you just to be a friend..
 
dukeboy_318 said:
FYI all... George H is a professional body guy and has been for decades...... Highly recommend you take his advice.
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Just in general for anyone following along. We're talking about a cosmetic repair here but there have been other things mentioned.......

I've just been around it long enough to know what works and what will bite you in the ***. Many times I've been that guy that gets into someone else's work and re-repair it. Let a bad job leave a bodyshop and it usually ends up with the Ins. Co. back involved and the car at a shop that has Car-o-liner equipment for a reinspection. I've had re-inspects total on the frame machine because the cars were built, glued, screwed together crooked and the repair would require cutting everything off the previous shop did and start over. Finished cars that have been given back to the customer. It happens.

Everything on a unibody is structural including the quarters. I can't stress that enough. The only proof you need is to jack up the car cut the quarter off and watch the door gap close. I've also fixed cars that had previously had panels glued on. The spot welds on the corners that the glue manufactures recommend will not keep the panel attached on a secondary hit. Even on body over frame vehicles the body adds torsional rigidity in the overall scheme of things. Case in point, chasing a water leak on a Suburban that had it's roof glued on. It ended up with another new roof on it.
All the training, I-Car, OEM programs and repair guidelines etc. beat you with proper repair procedures, liability, and safety. The biggest thing they stress is that your repairs need to stay together to protect the occupants best as possible. There's equipment out there to duplicate the OEM weld/bond techniques but it takes 460v service and a 10k machine to get it done.

It's not only the additional work it creates but it could affect someone's safety if you do a half assed structural repair
 
GeorgeH said:
Just in general for anyone following along. We're talking about a cosmetic repair here but there have been other things mentioned.......

I've just been around it long enough to know what works and what will bite you in the ***. Many times I've been that guy that gets into someone else's work and re-repair it. Let a bad job leave a bodyshop and it usually ends up with the Ins. Co. back involved and the car at a shop that has Car-o-liner equipment for a reinspection. I've had re-inspects total on the frame machine because the cars were built, glued, screwed together crooked and the repair would require cutting everything off the previous shop did and start over. Finished cars that have been given back to the customer. It happens.

Everything on a unibody is structural including the quarters. I can't stress that enough. The only proof you need is to jack up the car cut the quarter off and watch the door gap close. I've also fixed cars that had previously had panels glued on. The spot welds on the corners that the glue manufactures recommend will not keep the panel attached on a secondary hit. Even on body over frame vehicles the body adds torsional rigidity in the overall scheme of things. Case in point, chasing a water leak on a Suburban that had it's roof glued on. It ended up with another new roof on it.
All the training, I-Car, OEM programs and repair guidelines etc. beat you with proper repair procedures, liability, and safety. The biggest thing they stress is that your repairs need to stay together to protect the occupants best as possible. There's equipment out there to duplicate the OEM weld/bond techniques but it takes 460v service and a 10k machine to get it done.

It's not only the additional work it creates but it could affect someone's safety if you do a half assed structural repair
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yes you are so right and don't forget even the windshield adds support to the car. I have less than a year till I retire and with all the new bullshit, been a body man for over 40 years. the ins. co. are trying to beat or labor rate down all the time and just getting tired of them calling the shop and saying we will not pay that amount in labor so I tell them well your just gonna have to tell the owner of the car that you won't pay for quality work and your gonna have to take your car to a butcher shop. they can kiss my ***. sorry I'm just fed up with the bullshit, and will pass up work before they get there way.
 
harrisonm said:
I'm glad to hear you say that. I think that all the time. Someday, a person will have a problem within a few hours of where I live, and I'll help them. BTW, I really do totally agree that welding is the best way to do it. That is what I'd do.
Click to expand...

I've done it before, I did some aluminum welding with my TIG for another member here and have done welding projects for a few of my coworkers. I don't mind at all as long as it's not more than a couple hours of work. If it's more than that the material costs tend to rise above the level of a beer donation :p. And I'm not a business, so, I don't want to charge people.

66Dvert said:
OP said no welding equip available. I was going for the safest almost correct way of doing this. brass sucks big time trying to prime over it, I'd use a map torch and lead it over the plug first. Paddling lead was my very first job at a body/restoration shop and it ain't really that hard just finicky on how many seconds you have to work with it in the correct stage of softness and properly cleaned and tinned is a Must.
I'm not telling how many tries my boss made me do on a junk panel but once I found the sweet spot by looks it was easy. (just didn't know about all the toxic stuff so be aware of it and wear a GOOD respirator and gloves.)
I would not think twice about using panel bond to put in floor pans and structural areas and you are right about the difference between glue and steel expansion so it makes it hard to recommend it for that, but if you can get a really tight fitting plug of metal with a larger backer that is glued to the plug you can minimize the expansion/contraction if no glue goes into the plug/hole area, yeah that is hard to do but it can be done and then finished properly it helps.
Click to expand...

Panel bonding is great for cars that were designed to be bonded together. IMO it should not be used on any structural components of these cars- not the floor pans, not the quarters, not any part of the unibody structure.

Panel bonding adhesives can be very particular in use and application- curing temperatures, clamping pressures, direction of applied loads, vibration frequency, etc. Using panel bond correctly means starting with the right adhesive for the EXACT intended use and application and then following the installation to a tee. It works well in factory assembly type settings (where the use was designed and the application is tightly controlled), and it can do amazing things when used and applied correctly.

What you can't do with panel bonding material is just slap some glue on a couple structural parts, throw them together, and expect the result to be comparable to the welds that were designed to hold the car together. IMHO structural panel bonding is more difficult than most of the welding that's required for these cars. The application process has to be dead on, otherwise the strength of the bond can suffer dramatically. And it's not always easy to tell the bonding wasn't completely successful. Personally, I think a lay person with no experience with panel bonding or welding is better off buying a MIG and teaching themselves to weld. Especially if the cars to be repaired were designed to be welded together.

GeorgeH said:
Just in general for anyone following along. We're talking about a cosmetic repair here but there have been other things mentioned.......

I've just been around it long enough to know what works and what will bite you in the ***. Many times I've been that guy that gets into someone else's work and re-repair it. Let a bad job leave a bodyshop and it usually ends up with the Ins. Co. back involved and the car at a shop that has Car-o-liner equipment for a reinspection. I've had re-inspects total on the frame machine because the cars were built, glued, screwed together crooked and the repair would require cutting everything off the previous shop did and start over. Finished cars that have been given back to the customer. It happens.

Everything on a unibody is structural including the quarters. I can't stress that enough. The only proof you need is to jack up the car cut the quarter off and watch the door gap close. I've also fixed cars that had previously had panels glued on. The spot welds on the corners that the glue manufactures recommend will not keep the panel attached on a secondary hit. Even on body over frame vehicles the body adds torsional rigidity in the overall scheme of things. Case in point, chasing a water leak on a Suburban that had it's roof glued on. It ended up with another new roof on it.
All the training, I-Car, OEM programs and repair guidelines etc. beat you with proper repair procedures, liability, and safety. The biggest thing they stress is that your repairs need to stay together to protect the occupants best as possible. There's equipment out there to duplicate the OEM weld/bond techniques but it takes 460v service and a 10k machine to get it done.

It's not only the additional work it creates but it could affect someone's safety if you do a half assed structural repair
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Exactly so. Well put sir. :thumbsup:
 
so what we have so far is weld it, pop rivet it,bond it with glue, fiberglass or just fill it with bondo. If it was mine I would weld it, if I knew I was gonna get rid of it in 3 years I would glue it. If I wanted to sell it soon and wanted it to last at least till the guy forgot where he got it from, I would pop rivet it. Fiberglass or bondo it up ? sorry I can't do that god would never forgive me
 
72bluNblu said:
I've done it before, I did some aluminum welding with my TIG for another member here and have done welding projects for a few of my coworkers. I don't mind at all as long as it's not more than a couple hours of work. If it's more than that the material costs tend to rise above the level of a beer donation :p. And I'm not a business, so, I don't want to charge people.



Panel bonding is great for cars that were designed to be bonded together. IMO it should not be used on any structural components of these cars- not the floor pans, not the quarters, not any part of the unibody structure.

Panel bonding adhesives can be very particular in use and application- curing temperatures, clamping pressures, direction of applied loads, vibration frequency, etc. Using panel bond correctly means starting with the right adhesive for the EXACT intended use and application and then following the installation to a tee. It works well in factory assembly type settings (where the use was designed and the application is tightly controlled), and it can do amazing things when used and applied correctly.

What you can't do with panel bonding material is just slap some glue on a couple structural parts, throw them together, and expect the result to be comparable to the welds that were designed to hold the car together. IMHO structural panel bonding is more difficult than most of the welding that's required for these cars. The application process has to be dead on, otherwise the strength of the bond can suffer dramatically. And it's not always easy to tell the bonding wasn't completely successful. Personally, I think a lay person with no experience with panel bonding or welding is better off buying a MIG and teaching themselves to weld. Especially if the cars to be repaired were designed to be welded together.



Exactly so. Well put sir. :thumbsup:
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I'd like to add trunk floors for $200 Alex!:poke::lol:

Again just in general to those following the thread.
Only because I've seen it and some seem to think it's ok. It was one of the worst "panel bond" disasters I have seen. I was given a Civic to tear down. We knew it was totaled but Ins co's like to see a prelim estimate. Rear ended. First thing I saw was a cracked seem where a replacement quarter would go in at the rocker and a crack at the sail panel. Didn't think much of it pulled the car in. Had to cut the decklid open as it was wadded up pretty good. Long story short, the car had been previously repaired via a welded in rear body panel, 2 glued on quarters and a glued trunk floor except for where it was welded to the rear body. A salvage company did not pick up the car. The State Highway Patrol did. When the floor came loose from everything else except the rear body, the rear body wadded it up and shoved a section of it through the back seat along side a car seat.
For those that don't know, Umpteen years ago all the cars used to end up at the bodyshops including those involving fatalities and you'd have the highway patrol and maybe the NHTSA out there running around with cones, flags, measuring devices etc. In most places nowadays those cars go to a S.H.P. for investigation. That's where that Honda went. I'm not so sure "as is, where is" is going to limit liability for knowingly putting a bad repair out there.
 
GeorgeH said:
I'd like to add trunk floors for $200 Alex!:poke::lol:

Again just in general to those following the thread.
Only because I've seen it and some seem to think it's ok. It was one of the worst "panel bond" disasters I have seen. I was given a Civic to tear down. We knew it was totaled but Ins co's like to see a prelim estimate. Rear ended. First thing I saw was a cracked seem where a replacement quarter would go in at the rocker and a crack at the sail panel. Didn't think much of it pulled the car in. Had to cut the decklid open as it was wadded up pretty good. Long story short, the car had been previously repaired via a welded in rear body panel, 2 glued on quarters and a glued trunk floor except for where it was welded to the rear body. A salvage company did not pick up the car. The State Highway Patrol did. When the floor came loose from everything else except the rear body, the rear body wadded it up and shoved a section of it through the back seat along side a car seat.
For those that don't know, Umpteen years ago all the cars used to end up at the bodyshops including those involving fatalities and you'd have the highway patrol and maybe the NHTSA out there running around with cones, flags, measuring devices etc. In most places nowadays those cars go to a S.H.P. for investigation. That's where that Honda went. I'm not so sure "as is, where is" is going to limit liability for knowingly putting a bad repair out there.
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you can blame the guy that did the repair or you can blame the ins. co. for not paying to get it fixed right. I'm not saying the guy that fixed it was smart but you really need to look at what was going on here. Iv'e seen to many times that the ins. co. will go out of there way to save money you have to realize it is our neck on the line not there's. I will tell the ins. co. to take it to a different shop because thy wouldn't replace a lower control arm on a truck that took a hard hit on that side.
 
Fred Scigliano said:
yes you are so right and don't forget even the windshield adds support to the car. I have less than a year till I retire and with all the new bullshit, been a body man for over 40 years. the ins. co. are trying to beat or labor rate down all the time and just getting tired of them calling the shop and saying we will not pay that amount in labor so I tell them well your just gonna have to tell the owner of the car that you won't pay for quality work and your gonna have to take your car to a butcher shop. they can kiss my ***. sorry I'm just fed up with the bullshit, and will pass up work before they get there way.
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The worst part about that is that the insurance co that wants to dictate how the car should be fixed will be the first one standing at the other shop saying it should have never been fixed like that during a reinspect. It's really to the point where it's up to the person doing the repairs to keep themselves informed.
 
Wow 44 posts on filling a few holes in a trunk lid. Has anyone suggested to crush the car yet? Write it off as a total loss. And go buy a KIA. :poke:
 
Fred Scigliano said:
you can blame the guy that did the repair or you can blame the ins. co. for not paying to get it fixed right. I'm not saying the guy that fixed it was smart but you really need to look at what was going on here. Iv'e seen to many times that the ins. co. will go out of there way to save money you have to realize it is our neck on the line not there's. I will tell the ins. co. to take it to a different shop because thy wouldn't replace a lower control arm on a truck that took a hard hit on that side.
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yeah, sometimes it's hard to get them to replace something unless there's visible physical damage, an alignment spec sheet, or a print out from frame measuring equipment that's capable of measuring ball joint locations and other suspension control points.
 
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