65 Barracuda 318 Rebuild, Cam, timing, lifters maybe a kit?

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JeffreyLee

1965 Barracuda
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meridian Id
I decided to take my 318 out of my 65 Barracuda in order to clean up the engine bay and add headers. My 318 is rebuilt already and looks to be in good shape. I have torn it down to the block. I would like to do some things to ensure good performance and reliability going forward, but I'm not sure where to stop. I HAVE NEVER BEEN THIS DEEP IN AN ENGINE BEFORE, SO KEEP THAT IN MIND PLEASE. I already have a nice Edelbrock performer intake with an Edelbrock carb. I have the heads off and will put in new head gaskets of course. The timing chain is very loose. I have been advised that I should install a new camshaft and install a double roller timing chain. Question is, do I need to replace lifters, rods etc? I don't want to go crazy with a simple old 318. Edelbrock makes some kits that look like decent choices or should I buy parts individually? What are some suggestions please? Thanks!
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If it ran good leave it. It does need a timing chain and gears though. It looks clean and as long as it ran well and didn't smoke you should be good to go.
 
No engine should be built without a double roller timing chain, period. If you want, this would be a good time to upgrade the hydraulic cam, something mild. If replacing the cam- you always replace the lifters since they wear-in together. Kits are cheaper to buy if the kit suits you.
 
I think you need to look further into what you have..... appears you have aftermarket pistons. timing chain has been replaced also (though it has slack). Maybe some things have already been changed such as cam, etc.
 
What do you like to do with this car/engine? I ask, because if you change cams with a low compression ratio, you have to pay close attention to what cam you choose... .you can hurt low RPM torque very easily with the wrong cam in that engine setup.

100% agreed with everyone else on the chain... replace with a double roller. It may be wise IMHO to get one that allows for adjusting cam timing, depending on your answer to the above question. Like this: Mancini Racing Double Roller Timing Set

If you change cams, you MUST put in new lifters with it. Old lifters are almost 100% guaranteed to destroy a lobe, or lobes, on a new cam. But putting in the new lifters is trivial at this point.

Pushrods and rockers (on the heads) are very likely just fine if everything was running smoothly and no odd tapping noises before you pulled it apart.
 
THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Keep it simple
chain and gears obviously
take two lifters out and keeping one in each hand and remembering which lifter came out of which hole and place them bottom to bottom and see if they are cupped
the should rock against each other
If you see daylight in the middle it's new cam and lifter time
you can inspect the cam also to see if the lobes are rounded- the wear pattern should not be off the edge
I would NOT buy and Edelbrock cam and kit
you can get exactly the same thing from Elgin or Summit much cheaper (where does Edelbrock get them???)
Edelbrock reboxes they do not grind and they but the cheapest and sell at high prices- and the cams they sell are 50 year old designs for a chevy
(end rant)
Rusty says the best cam for a stock engine is a stock cam and there is wisdom in this
That said if you want a little more torque, get up and go (for get more top end) there are "RV grinds that work
see if you need a cam and post back
Incidently the valve job and valve stem seals have to be shot- the seals have hardened and may be in the pan :)
valve job more important than new cam
 
BTW, OP, nice to see you are keeping things in order.

Just one gotcha to warn you about: Some manuals list the torque on the rocker shaft bolts wrong; it's no more than 15-18 ft lbs torque, not the 25-30 ft-lbs incorrectly listed in some places. Let's just head off that boo-boo at the pass!
 
No cam over 220° @ .050 to be safe.
Thanks for all of the prompt responses...I have been looking over cam, lifter and timing kits. How do duration, lift and RPM range all come together? Those seem to be the differing factors in my choices here...I'm not a racer, but I do want my little Cuda' to get up and go when its all said and done...Probably more off the start than high speeds.
 
I'm considering these three cams for my 318! There are endless choices of cams that will work good I have been in decision mode for months lol

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I I forgot to mention you need to cc your heads and measure how far your piston is down in the hole to check you compression ratio. that will give you an idea of where your at and also help with cam selection. As far as kits go I ordered the felpro kit it includes everything even the valve seals for the heads and it's not super expensive!! I am replacing the head gaskets in that kit with the mr gasket ones for better cr! I have a extra double roller timing chain if you need it PM me! Here are links to the gaskets.
Fel-Pro Engine Gasket Kits SFLKS2114
Mr. Gasket Head Gaskets 1121G
 
I wouldn't go with any aggressive cams. The old 272 Energizer (Crane) with .454" lift works good. Use new replacement lifters and #901 Comp valvesprings and you're done. For a little less lope, you could use the 255DEH Comp, it works well, especially with OEM exhaust manifolds (split pattern). 340 replacement valvesprings are another good option with either camshaft. Good luck!!
 
I wouldn't go with any aggressive cams. The old 272 Energizer (Crane) with .454" lift works good. Use new replacement lifters and #901 Comp valvesprings and you're done. For a little less lope, you could use the 255DEH Comp, it works well, especially with OEM exhaust manifolds (split pattern). 340 replacement valvesprings are another good option with either camshaft. Good luck!!
Summit has a good and cheap "crane" grind cam. It's 272 dur/454 lift includes lifters for 100 bucks
That's the exact cam you're talking about my distributed by summit!

Summit Racing® Camshafts SUM-1789
 
Thanks for all of the prompt responses...I have been looking over cam, lifter and timing kits. How do duration, lift and RPM range all come together? Those seem to be the differing factors in my choices here...I'm not a racer, but I do want my little Cuda' to get up and go when its all said and done...Probably more off the start than high speeds.

Lift and duration go hand in hand to some degree; to get more lift, you need more duration. The more you get of those, the more fuel-air mix you can get into the engine and the more power... a simple concept. There ARE variations in cam lobe designs that can get more lift without excessive duration (more on that later). As you increase the durations, the 'usable' RPM range (the RPM range over which you have decent torque and HP from the engine) moves higher and higher. So for a street engine, where you spend most of your time at low and mid RPM's, that is one reason to not go too big on duration.

The other reason is that if the durations get large, then the closing of the intake valve, gets later and later, and the later that happens, the less compression build-up in the cylinders you get during the compression stroke, and the more intake charge reverses back out of the cylinder. These things hurt low RPM torque in particular, and, again, for a street/cruise engine, that is another important reason to not go too big on duration. And that problem is exacerbated in a lower CR engine like your 318; it will make low RPM torque lower than what you have now, and make it like a /6 at low RPM's! (The last line of your post, about good performance starting off, says you want to maintain low RPM torque so that is why to go on and on about durations.)

The term 'too large' in this case means the advertised duration numbers. What you would ideally like is to get not much bigger advertised duration on a new cam versus the stock cam's duration, but have the cam open the valves faster (faster ramp rates) to achieve higher (more lift) to get more air into the cylinders and take advantage of the headers and 4 BBL carb in the mid and higher RPM ranges.

But this gets into the matter of fast versus slow ramp rates; i.e., how quickly the valves are opened and closed. Slow ramp rate cams (like suggested in post #13) are easy on the valvetrain but that 272 duration will indeed reduce your low RPM torque. Fast ramp rate cams like in post #11 are better to keep the low RPM torque up while being harsher on the valvetrain. (This may be what BBM means by 'aggressive' cams in post #13.)

So which do you do? With the lower stock 318 compression ratios, the low RPM is torque and performance is already soft, so I personally would prefer to go to the high ramp rate cams and work with the challenges there. That means changing the valve springs like suggested in post #13. High rate cams are like the Lunati Voodoo's (PN's 10200700 or 10200701) or the Howard's 711381-10. (Kits with cam and lifter are available.)

With those, you want to buy the springs or some like suggested above, to help keep the valvetrain from 'float' at high RPM's. If you go with these, do your homework on the springs offered/recommended and see if any require mods to the springs seats in the heads; if so, to keep life simple, you may want to ask here about alternative springs.

When installing, for your low CR engine, I would personally install the cam with a few degrees extra advance. That gets into cam timing, which you should do, but is a different discussion. That extra cam advance is the reason to buy a timing set like suggested, that has an settable crank sprocket.

With any cam upgrade, slow or fast ramp, you NEED to learn about ZDDP content in motor oils and how to manage that. It is not rocket science, but is important, because if your oil does not have the right ZDDP levels, then the new cam likely faces terminal damage. There are also correct cam break-in procedures to follow. All of these things are found on this forum in various discussions. Search and ask away!

Finally, some other aids for low RPM torque:
  1. There are a number of ignition system and ignition timing changes that will make marked improvements in low RPM torque. Those are relatively easy to do, and so you should learn about those and plan them in now, regardless of whether you change cams or not.
  2. If you changed pistons and got the compression ratio up, that would REALLY make it get up and got from a dead stop, and then the world of cam selections opens up quite bit larger. But, that is likely a bridge to far for you, and that is totally understood... learn it a bit at a time.

Sorry to get so long winded....hope that helped!
 
Summit has a good and cheap "crane" grind cam. It's 272 dur/454 lift includes lifters for 100 bucks
That's the exact cam you're talking about my distributed by summit!

Summit Racing® Camshafts SUM-1789
Hey DF, put yer thinkin' cap on..... the OP has a worse low SCR problem than you do in his 318 with what look to be open chamber heads plus piston eyebrows. With that 272 cam his low RPM torque is gonna fall noticeably LOWER than a 225 slant 6. And his altitude is higher than yours... so even worse! I do like the easy ramps on that cam, but wowzer, it would be awfully sluggish starting off.

OP, can you check the head casting PN on your heads? It ought to be a 7 digit number cast on an intake runner, and may well end in '675'.

And can you tell us your transmission info?
 
Hey DF, put yer thinkin' cap on..... the OP has a worse low SCR problem than you do in his 318 with what look to be open chamber heads plus piston eyebrows. With that 272 cam his low RPM torque is gonna fall noticeably LOWER than a 225 slant 6. And his altitude is higher than yours... so even worse! I do like the easy ramps on that cam, but wowzer, it would be awfully sluggish starting off.

OP, can you check the head casting PN on your heads? It ought to be a 7 digit number cast on an intake runner, and may well end in '675'.

And can you tell us your transmission info?
Oh I wasnt recommended that cam I was just pointing out that the same cam that the other guy recommended could be found cheaper than crane. I made my recommendation. But yea i agree with you!
 
I'm considering these three cams for my 318! There are endless choices of cams that will work good I have been in decision mode for months lol

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As you well know by your multi-page thread on 318 cams. (dartfreak75) There are many (did I say "lots") of threads here about 318 cams. Use search function and read along. You will have to sift through the information but remember, 318's are easy to over cam without a higher stall torque converter and a higher numerical rear gear to make them work. You want street performance from idle to 4000 rpm? Don't go big. That's why I recommended nothing over 220°@ .050.
 
Digesting all of this information.....Thanks to everyone who takes their time to help. I hope some day to be able to return the favor.
 
I disagreed on a double roller for the fact that you can put a new steel silent chain setup on that and run a MP tensioner and never have to worry about it again. Even DR's wear over time, just look at your new one in 6 months.
 
Unless you're 'full on rebuilding it' just put an edelbrock iron double on it aaand maybe choose the 4 degree advance to pep it up a lil bit. Good luck!
 
My 2cents
forget cams
just add 10% , or more, rear gear,for Waaaay more performance increase.
Or better yet forget the cam and the gear and just put a 2800TC in there; now yer talking tirespin.

But if your lifters are worn out , well then, somebody said RV cam. I've never tried one, and never will. But I would try a solid lifter cam, with the same net advertised duration after lashing, that you have now, and with lightning ramps and as much lift as the grinder can provide, and install whatever springs he says to; Teeners with pistons as far down as yours are, just can't afford any pressure loss.
For the same reason, for your combo, I would get the cam ground on a much tighter LSA than the 112 stocker. Your current combo is probably a 904/2.76 gears which means 4800 will be about 54 mph, so it's basically a one gear car. So in this case the 112Lsa is nothing but L-A-Z-Y, and I would get rid of it.
But if you take my advice and put at least 3.23s in there, now 4800 will be 46mph, so it's still a one-gear powerhouse, cuz when it goes into second gear the Rs will drop to a tic over 2800, and it's game over.
So since you are going to the expense of adding headers, you might as well take advantage of them with a tighter Lsa to increase the overlap, and take advantage of that powerbulge it will make.
Ok so after all the talky, here is my recommendation;the stock cam is a 240/248/112 with overlap of 20 measly degrees which is why it idles dead smooth at 600rpm.The compression degrees are 132*, and extraction is 120*, for a total of 252*. Ok so we can sacrifice a ton of extraction and just a teensey bit of compression, more if you get the 2800. So the solid I am working on needs to maintain the 48* ICA as closely as possible to keep the cylinder pressure up. But I think we can double the overlap for a nice fat powerbulge somewhere around 4400/4800
Ok so I like this; 252/258/106 with overlap of 43*. In at 102 you get compression of 132 (loss of 0*) and extraction of 121*( gain of 1*) for a total of 253* These are net after lashing.
So lets gross them up by say 8degrees to allow for lash, and I get 260/266/106, and the closest cam you might find is; 262/268/110; Close enough BUT NOT ON A 110LSA. Get someone to cut you those on a 106.
Ok so if you do that, and allowing 8* for lashing I get a true net after lash of 254/260/106 with overlap of 45*, so it idles like a 340 cam (44*), and the Compression is still 132* and extraction of 119*, for a total of 251*, just a 1* loss from stock. The ICA comes to 48* just like stock, so your cylinder pressure will be just like stock. And if you keep the cruise rpm above say 2200, then it is apt to make hiway fuel mileage similar to stock. Of course around town it won't be nearly as good as it used to be lol.

But the truth is the above cam will do nothing much for you until the Rs get up.
If you have 2.76s and a 1750TC, that's gonna be a bit of a wait, like say 30 mph before it wakes up.
Whereas,adding 10% or more rear gear to what you have now, and using a factory cam, and a 2800TC, will far surpass your current take-off performance. Like instant tirespin.
And say 3.23s and that 2800TC will add the missing bottom end to the above described cam.
You just can't hardly beat the 2800, over the stocker, for a street 318.
And for icing on the cake, it's hard to beat 20% to 30% more gear over a 2.76.
Whatever you decide
Happy HotRodding
 
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I have this cam in a 318 now.

Most people on here and other forums recommend the latest wiz-bang cams after never having run one in the OP's combination or similar. Reliably pepping-up a low compression 318 isn't child's play. Having ran the 272 Energizer, .454" lift, 110*LSA in my personal '86 D-250 3/4 ton (heavy-5,000lb) truck with a 727 trans and 31.5x16 tires and 3.55 gears, I can testify that it sounded serious and responded from an idle well enough to tow a loaded car trailer (6000+lb) from a dead stop and cruise as fast as you dared on the interstate. My business partner has a '76 D-300 dually with a warmed up 440 and 4.10s and he was impressed. If you have an A-body and use the same setup with say, 3.23 gears and a 11" torque converter with maybe 2200 stall, that Summit cam would be cheap bliss in my opinion, without noisy valvetrain sounds and minimum companion items to make it work.
 
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