65 Barracuda 318 Rebuild, Cam, timing, lifters maybe a kit?

[toolmanmike]

"I disagreed on a double roller for the fact that you can put a new steel silent chain setup on that and run a MP tensioner and never have to worry about it again. Even DR's wear over time, just look at your new one in 6 months."

I like the extra width and strength of the double roller. The tensioner's wear too and although they keep the chain tight, valve timing still changes as the chain and gears wear. Where does the material go that wears off the tensioner blocks? In the oil of course.

 

[Bighead440]

"I disagreed on a double roller for the fact that you can put a new steel silent chain setup on that and run a MP tensioner and never have to worry about it again. Even DR's wear over time, just look at your new one in 6 months."

I like the extra width and strength of the double roller. The tensioner's wear too and although they keep the chain tight, valve timing still changes as the chain and gears wear. Where does the material go that wears off the tensioner blocks? In the oil of course.

I use a double roller with the tensioner, the worst of all worlds-lol. If you are wearing tensioner phenolic blocks, look at the oil you are running. I haven't seen appreciable wear on any that I've used, upon freshen-ups or re-configurations.

 

[nm9stheham]

I disagreed on a double roller for the fact that you can put a new steel silent chain setup on that and run a MP tensioner and never have to worry about it again. Even DR's wear over time, just look at your new one in 6 months.

Unfortunately, this does not solve anything of interest, unless you worry some timing variation at light cruise, or chain noise. The chain still stretches the same as with or without the tensioner in place (and very probably more with the silent chain) and the cam's timing still retards the exact same amount as without the tensioner, with the subsequent degradation of throttle response, low RPM torque, etc.

 

[nm9stheham]

Most people on here and other forums recommend the latest wiz-bang cams after never having run one in the OP's combination or similar. Reliably pepping-up a low compression 318 isn't child's play. Having ran the 272 Energizer, .454" lift, 110*LSA in my personal '86 D-250 3/4 ton (heavy-5,000lb) truck with a 727 trans and 31.5x16 tires and 3.55 gears, I can testify that it sounded serious and responded from an idle well enough to tow a loaded car trailer (6000+lb) from a dead stop and cruise as fast as you dared on the interstate. My business partner has a '76 D-300 dually with a warmed up 440 and 4.10s and he was impressed. If you have an A-body and use the same setup with say, 3.23 gears and a 11" torque converter with maybe 2200 stall, that Summit cam would be cheap bliss in my opinion, without noisy valvetrain sounds and minimum companion items to make it work.

Agreed 100% on the work to get the CR up. And agreed 100% on the potential valvetrain noise, etc. BTW, I have raced thousands of miles on a much WORSE cam and CR combination than you had in your truck ....7.6 SCR with a 300 cam .... DCR in the high 5's LOL.....Absolutely 'deadsville' below 3700 RPM! So there is more experience behind all this than you may be realizing.

And, we don't know how high you had to rev up your 272 cammed truck engine to get it rolling in that towing operation, or how slow it was to roll out... and once on the interstate, with the engine revved up, it was past the 'low RPM dead zone', so that is not any evidence about the 272 cam and low RPM problems with too low CR (low DCR). Nor do you know how different it would have been with a smaller cam. And now the OP is being advised to change the TC to 2200 RPM to make this 272 cam work well in a lighter car .....so that pretty much says that this 272 is not a cam for low RPM and low CR.

Bottom line: You benefited from the better lift and overall duration at mid and upper RPM's with that 272 cam, but not at low RPM's.

But that does bring out one point.... with the engine out, it would be a snap to change the TC....assuming this is an auto trans car....which we still don't know.

FWIW, my son's 340 has 10:1 CR and we did not go past 268 on the cam duration. (DCR=8.0) We cared more about low and mid-range RPM than peak HP numbers for what we do... which is quick take-offs, all street driving more like road race or rally, not drag racing.

I have this cam in a 318 now.

And you know as much as anyone about low RPM torque problems:

• You milled your 360 heads with excellent knowledge of what too low a compression would do when you cam up.
• Your own words about your car at the strip are that ' 60 ft times are lacking'....meaning a 'soft' engine combination at low RPM's....

 

[318willrun]

And you know as much as anyone about low RPM torque problems:

• You milled your 360 heads with excellent knowledge of what too low a compression would do when you cam up.
• Your own words about your car at the strip are that ' 60 ft times are lacking'....meaning a 'soft' engine combination at low RPM's....

• just to save readers confusion, my heads on my 318 are the factory '76 318 smog heads and they are not milled. I did mildly home port them. I have less compression than the factories low compression because I used .050 thick (much thicker than the factory gaskets) head gaskets.
• 2nd, with 2.76 gears and stock converter, well, I really put my 318 at a disadvantage for 0-30 punch.
• 3rd, I like split pattern cams if using factory exhaust manifolds. I'm using factory manifolds but a dual pattern cam.

My 60 ft was 2.3 (I've done 2.2 with factory 318 2bbl), 1/4 mile was 14.9 at 94 mph. Remember, the short block was never disassembled, 42 year old block with 120,*** miles.

Now, if I cut the heads .040 and used a thinner head gasket, the 60 ft would drop as low end torque would go up.

 

[Bighead440]

• just to save readers confusion, my heads on my 318 are the factory '76 318 smog heads and they are not milled. I did mildly home port them. I have less compression than the factories low compression because I used .050 thick (much thicker than the factory gaskets) head gaskets.
• 2nd, with 2.76 gears and stock converter, well, I really put my 318 at a disadvantage for 0-30 punch.
• 3rd, I like split pattern cams if using factory exhaust manifolds. I'm using factory manifolds but a dual pattern cam.

My 60 ft was 2.3 (I've done 2.2 with factory 318 2bbl), 1/4 mile was 14.9 at 94 mph. Remember, the short block was never disassembled, 42 year old block with 120,*** miles.

Now, if I cut the heads .040 and used a thinner head gasket, the 60 ft would drop as low end torque would go up.

The Comp 255DEH that I suggested for use with OEM exhaust manifolds will probably suit you better than the 272 Energizer/Summit. It's only 203* @.050" lift on the intake side.

 

[318willrun]

The Comp 255DEH that I suggested for use with OEM exhaust manifolds will probably suit you better than the 272 Energizer/Summit. It's only 203* @.050" lift on the intake side.

There were plenty of cams I would have rather chosen, however, my challenge was to run with a factory '73 340 auto Duster 3.21 gear on less than 500 bucks thrown at a old 318 2bbl auto with 2.76's. I spent 497.00 including gaskets, expansion plugs, timing chain, new exhaust valves, 4bbl and intake, cam & lifters… LOL... not much money to go around.. I got my cam and lifters delivered to my door for 109.99 and achieved my goal.

 

[Wyrmrider]

first off suggesting no more than 220 at 50 is way out of the ballpark for his build
second his current cam is under 200 at .050
here are a couple of stock specs
405/412 198/203 109LCA
use MP 4451755 240-248-(24) as replacement (those are MOPAR degrees)
there are lots of threads with suggestions ending up in the 250-256 area at .006 or
260 -264 at the Crane/ aftermarket .004 lift
around 202-205@.050 depending on the "intensity"
Forget Comp below 274 @.006 all the cams you post were designed for chevies
you would be better off with a stock 360 2bbl cam but you can do better
There are choices form Lunati Voodoo, Howard with a (15) footnote in the catalog, Bullet, Engle these will have over .300 lobe lift at the durations mentioned
but IMHO putting cart before the horse till you get the rest of the build posted up
If this is a stock rebuild BVVC about overcaming the duration on a 318

 

[AJ/FormS]

I think too many streeters get dreamy-eyed by the allure of big horsepower, and totally ignore big torque, which is far more valuable in the grand scheme of streeter, and that includes TM(Torque Multiplication).
Even a stock, low-C, 2bbl, teener can be made to put down BigBlock type torque on the start-line, and isn't that the biggest want on the list. I mean think about this; how does a 318 farm truck with a 14 yard box, pull a load of grain off the back forty over soft recently worked and maybe even wet, dirt? It's only got maybe 180/150hp. How does it do that?
TM is how

 

[pishta]

..The tensioner's wear too and although they keep the chain tight, valve timing still changes as the chain and gears wear. Where does the material go that wears off the tensioner blocks? In the oil of course.

Ive never seen a tensioner who's nylon pad was worn out with a silent chain. Barely a scuff as the silent rolls across on a wide wedge of oil. It has a much larger footprint on the tensioner block than a double roller with its 3 spines. If you see one thats wasted, there was no oil in there to start. Seen more valve seals in oil pans that anything else. .100 of variation off TDC on an 8" balancer (assuming you were dead nuts on with a new chain) is 1.432 degrees of retard over maybe 50K on a cam that may not have even been degreed during install. Thats a shift of the power band to the higher RPMs with a hit on low end torque. But the tensioner does more for erratic spark events. It just keeps a dead solid distributor signal. sure youll lose low end over time but like you said, they both will do that but the tensioned one will not lose stable distributor timing. Silent Timing chains (even some rollers) are cheap, about as much as a set of head gaskets. May as well change it out whenever you get in there for anything as most (almost all) of any design is going to wear out over time. Where does anything go that deteriorates inside the motor...the oil filter.

 

[toolmanmike]

Ive never seen a tensioner who's nylon pad was worn out with a silent chain. Barely a scuff as the silent rolls across on a wide wedge of oil. It has a much larger footprint on the tensioner block than a double roller with its 3 spines. If you see one thats wasted, there was no oil in there to start. Seen more valve seals in oil pans that anything else. .100 of variation off TDC on an 8" balancer (assuming you were dead nuts on with a new chain) is 1.432 degrees of retard over maybe 50K on a cam that may not have even been degreed during install. Thats a shift of the power band to the higher RPMs with a hit on low end torque. But the tensioner does more for erratic spark events. It just keeps a dead solid distributor signal. sure youll lose low end over time but like you said, they both will do that but the tensioned one will not lose stable distributor timing. Silent Timing chains (even some rollers) are cheap, about as much as a set of head gaskets. May as well change it out whenever you get in there for anything as most (almost all) of any design is going to wear out over time. Where does anything go that deteriorates inside the motor...the oil filter.

Most of these are OEM pics but tensioner wear can be an issue. A real problem at the dealerships. How many miles do we put on our cars? Most of us just a few thousand a year. No need for a tensioner in my book! worn out timing chain tensioner - Google Search

 

[Dartfreak75]

3rd, I like split pattern cams if using factory exhaust manifolds. I'm using factory manifolds but a dual pattern cam.

I have a question. I am still learning about cam selection myself. Why would a split pattern work better with factory manifolds?

 

[Dartfreak75]

I have a question. I am still learning about cam selection myself. Why would a split pattern work better with factory manifolds?

Also from my understanding there is a single pattern cam the duration and lift is the same on both sides. and a dual the duration and lift of the intake and exhaust are different. Would the latter be a "split" pattern?

 

[toolmanmike]

I have a question. I am still learning about cam selection myself. Why would a split pattern work better with factory manifolds?

Yes most splits help the restrictive exhaust manifolds.

 

[Dartfreak75]

Yes most splits help the restrictive exhaust manifolds.

So it's just because of the restricted exhaust? Would the same cam perform better if you upgraded later on to headers and say 2.5 or 3" pipes?

 

[toolmanmike]

So it's just because of the restricted exhaust? Would the same cam perform better if you upgraded later on to headers and say 2.5 or 3" pipes?

That I can't answer. I have never seen a comparison.

 

[Dartfreak75]

That I can't answer. I have never seen a comparison.

Ok thanks what else are the differences or benefits of a dual vs single pattern cam? Let's say you have headers 3" exhaust and ported heads what would be the better choice?

 

[AJ/FormS]

The extra duration on the exhaust side goes with the extra lift; they are or where, back in the day, intimately tied together. This was a compensation for the poorer flowing exhaust system; from the valve to the rear bumper. It has been long known that the factory-LA SBM heads have a bit of a problem on the exhaust ports, and log manifolds just aggravate it, as do the teensey pipes and restrictive factory triple pass mufflers, and choke tailpipes. (exaggerated for effect).Magnum heads have better exhaust port shapes.
Without that deficiency, the split is no longer required.
However,that split can be used in another way. It allows you to move the cam ICL around a bit, to fine tune a combo, without destroying the overlap.This is useful on the track.
For a streeter it can be useful to drop cylinder pressure if encountering detonation; 4* can kill up to 5psi and maybe put your combo back into pumpgas. Obviously if you get the Scr right in the first place then, you wouldn't need the adjustment nor any longer, the split.
It can be used in other ways too, like thumpr cams.

Three inch full length exhaust, they say, is overkill for a SBM. I have dual 3s not for the power, but use the extra metal to extract heat from the exhaust, before it gets to the mufflers. In this way the exhaust becomes more dense and slows down on the way to the bumper, and the engine (it is my hope) will not have to push the exhaust out.I can't prove it, but I think it's working,lol.I'd like to try 5 or 6 inch ovals up front.... maybe I could get away with no mufflers at all,lol.

I ran the Mopar 292/292/108 cam for a season., at 11.3 Scr, in my streeter. I felt the lower rpms were soft so moved the ICL a few times without much improvement. At 100* it lost the zing at the top and picked up a bit on the bottom, but man was it hard on gas. I attributed the loss of Zing to the messed up overlap; I could be wrong. In any case I pulled it out ASAP, and sold it. After that I went down 22* and hit paydirt with a 270/276/110. That 6* split allowed me to some room to experiment with the ICA, and not mess up the overlap too bad.When you don't have much(53*), you can't afford to lose effectiveness. That was a sweetheart of a cam.

 

[pishta]

Toolman, lots of pics but no Magnums? I have a 240k mile Mazda MA 2.0 carbed motor pulled original timing chain with slippers and mechanical tensioner (heavy spring loaded ratchet slipper) and had about 1mm of wear on those guides. Grooved right where the chain was. Not alot of wear for quarter million miles! Keep 'em oiled! Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.....

 

[AJ/FormS]

I put one of them there tensioners on my roller chain in 99. It was still doing ok in 00,01,02,03,and 04. The engine hasn't been apart since then, so I can't say how she's doing,today. I shift it at 7000 so maybe there is something to be said for oil-splash.lol
No not every shift ,not all the time,that would be crazy,lol

 

[318willrun]

I have a question. I am still learning about cam selection myself. Why would a split pattern work better with factory manifolds?

the skinny is this: Using factory manifolds challenges the motor (think of an air pump) to exhale, or get rid of the exhaust. Split pattern cams allow more lift/duration on the exhaust side of the cam to help exhale. Less intake, more exhaust.

 

[Dartfreak75]

the skinny is this: Using factory manifolds challenges the motor (think of an air pump) to exhale, or get rid of the exhaust. Split pattern cams allow more lift/duration on the exhaust side of the cam to help exhale. Less intake, more exhaust.

Thanks so if you are running headers and ported heads is there any advantage to the dual pattern? Or any disadvantage?

 

[318willrun]

Thanks so if you are running headers and ported heads is there any advantage to the dual pattern? Or any disadvantage?

I like dual pattern in that case. split patterns still work well, but really no need

 

[Dartfreak75]

I like dual pattern in that case. split patterns still work well, but really no need

Sorry to be so uneducated lol
But I thought split and dual where the same?
I thought it was single ie 272/272dur 454/454 lift
And dual or split ie 276/288dur 420/444 lift etc.
Are dual and split patterns different?

 

[318willrun]

Sorry to be so uneducated lol
But I thought split and dual where the same?
I thought it was single ie 272/272dur 454/454 lift
And dual or split ie 276/288dur 420/444 lift etc.
Are dual and split patterns different?

just a figure of how one says... yes, you have it right