10's on $5,000 ?

Mopar Racers Forum

  1. PRH

    PRH Well-Known Member

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    Whether you dyno or not, the math is still valid.
    For a given amount of weight, it’s going to take a certain amount of power to achieve a ten second ET.
    If the power to weight ratio won’t support that performance level........ you’re not going to reach the goal.

    I think a big factor on whether you get a “10” or not is going to come down to what the car weighs sitting there on the starting line.

    But trust me....... I’m not trying to preach to you about what you “need”.

    I def want you to go about it your own way.
     
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    • 318willrun

      318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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      HP to weight is a lot of it, but you can't forget gearing, converter, etc. Of course, you know this...
       
    • PRH

      PRH Well-Known Member

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      You’re right....... but my point is, even if the converter & gears & chassis are 110%........ if you need 500hp to run a certain ET for what the car weighs....... and you only have 350hp....... you’re not going to get there until you either find 150hp........ or lose 150hp worth of weight.
       
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      • fishmens67

        fishmens67 Well-Known Member

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        It's really no secret a low comp 400 with 590 cam, after market head and all the trimmings mid 11's @ 3200 #'s
        That is an old combo. lol
         
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        • PRH

          PRH Well-Known Member

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          Of course....... but...... there are Pure Stock 340 Dusters that have dipped into the 11’s on bias ply tires and no headers.

          Rules
           
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          • yellow rose

            yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

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            I think if you spent a day on the dyno, you'd change your mind. It's not different than a flow bench or any other tool.

            It can show you things you'll never learn at the track. You can isolate things on the dyno you can't on the track. Most guys now can measure many things with onboard data logging, but you still add way too many variable to the equation.

            I've seen many 600 HP engines ET like 500 HP engines and the dyno takes the blame when the chassis or converter or gear or all of them are the issue.
             
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            • 318willrun

              318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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              I'm not against dyno's or dyno tuning. Don't miss understand. But at the end of the day, the ET slip will determine the winner, correct??
               
            • 318willrun

              318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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              Just for the "numbers" of the number game, here is an example. 2005 Pontiac GP with a 200 hp 3.8, 4 speed auto. vs B-body 150 hp 318 2bbl auto 2.94 gear.
              • Pontiac + 50 hp
              • Pontiac better geared
              • Pontiac better aerodynamics
              • Pontiac zero spinning
              • Plymouth couldn't punch it out of the hole because of the one wheel wonder
              Yet, the Plymouth ran a 15.9 @ 84 mph against the Pontiac's 16.2 @ 83 mph. I was the owner of both cars. On paper the Pontiac was the clear winner. I know, we've ventured off topic somewhat.. LOL
               
            • PRH

              PRH Well-Known Member

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              Not to harp on the dyno thing, but.......

              Let’s say you put something together(no dyno test)and it’s slower than you “expected”.
              What’s wrong with it?
              Does it have enough power to get the job done or not?
              Is the problem the motor or the car?

              Btw, I’m not at all trying to convince you to dyno anything...... just illustrating the value of having data.
               
            • 318willrun

              318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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              MPH will tell you if it's the motor or the car. If you run 14.35 at 117 mph, well...:rolleyes:… Let me reverse the question. What if you put together a 400 hp motor for the dyno and it only pulls 320? what would you do? I bet the same thing I'd do in my driveway
               
            • fishmens67

              fishmens67 Well-Known Member

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              I wonder..... has an engine posted a better ET than the dyno results showed.
               
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              • PRH

                PRH Well-Known Member

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                When the car and combo isn’t “junk”.......it’s not as obvious as 14.35@117.

                What if it was 11.40@117, but you were expecting 118-119.
                Is it making enough power to run 118-119 and the converter is slipping too much, or the fuel pump can’t keep up?
                Or does it only make enough power to go 117.
                What about 11.10@117.
                Is it running into a valvetrain stability issue at the top end? Converter slipping?
                 
                Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
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                • 318willrun

                  318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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                  LOL.... I would guess my 360 might blow 220 hp on the dyno??? Is that enough to move 3400 lbs (with driver) with 2.94's and stock converter 13.3's???
                   
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                  • 318willrun

                    318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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                    I get what you are saying, and as I posted earlier, I'm not against dyno's or dyno tuning. I've personally never hauled a motor an hour to a shop to pay $$$$ and spend a day dyno tuning. Dyno's can never simulate real car burden of chassis working, wind resistance burden, and changing temps of everyday weather.
                     
                  • Oldiron440

                    Oldiron440 Well-Known Member

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                    I agree with using the dyno as a tool for a few reasons, cam break in, torque converter design, part selection and I just like knowing power curves.
                    Not all cams like the same ignition timming and I play with the cam timing also. It's only been the last 9 years that I've been putting everything on the dyno but its money very well spent.
                     
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                    • PRH

                      PRH Well-Known Member

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                      Like I said earlier...... my friends Stocker does it all the time.

                      69151CCE-F158-4607-990C-B1E0108A2245.png

                      That was on July 5th last year...... was running right about 3300lbs.
                      In good air it’s been a tenth quicker.
                      Plug it into your favorite calculator....... see what it says.
                       
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                      • Oldiron440

                        Oldiron440 Well-Known Member

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                        When my little Ford was on the dyno we tried two intake manifolds and three carburetors in about twenty pulls. The 292 W made 455 hp 445 tq by the end of the day.
                         
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                        • PRH

                          PRH Well-Known Member

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                          Wallace shows:

                          B79D07C0-DC0B-4F78-8F90-2A8708F45D82.png

                          Both of the calculated flywheel hp numbers for ET and MPH are pretty high compared to the actual dyno hp.
                           
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                          • flyfish

                            flyfish C8H18+N2O = :-D

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                            318, I like the idea, but realistically you won't even get close for that price. I am curious how close you end up when all is said and done. Good luck :)
                             
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                            • 318willrun

                              318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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                              you may be right.... I'll have all the fun trying just the same
                              :thumbsup:
                               
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                              • Hot Metal

                                Hot Metal '69 440 Cuda

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                                ^^^this
                                I use the wallace calc to show what a car "should" run if all is well, its based@sea level for a car that hooks average>good. Its worked out nigh on exact for all my 2 race cars and some of my fellow racers slips. You have to get to know how to interpret things you are being told by the numbers. But here's some numbers from a car that actually runs over here and gives an example for the above quote that will mess everything up for calcs, whichever you use, wallace/moroso ruler etc.>

                                2950lb@the line car, 14:1CR 572 all ally wedge, MW SR heads, .609" s/roller, 1050 Dom, mono's/caltracs, 10.5Wx31's, 4.56 gear, don't know converter stall, runs around 1.40>1.44 60's and has run a best of 9.66@131+change...If you input those parameters into wallace it shows you this with 646fwhp as the hp mark if you go by ET>
                                60 Foot E.T. : 1.34
                                1/8 Mile E.T. : 6.10
                                1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 111.47
                                1/4 Mile E.T. : 9.66
                                1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 138+
                                1/4 Mile Trap RPM : 6,858

                                with 546hp as the mark for mph>
                                60 Foot E.T. : 1.42
                                1/8 Mile E.T. : 6.45
                                1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 105.40
                                1/4 Mile E.T. : 10.22
                                1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 131
                                1/4 Mile Trap RPM : 6,485
                                work on that and understand whats going on here, not easy.

                                Reason for the 1st example not enough head/cam, perhaps tune is off some as well, engine runs out of steam at some early point, rest of run is just wasted, they were running even slower ET's@128>130 best until they started short shifting but still had same gear/tyre. In this instance a dyno would be a good tool to use to see where the power is and isn't. The real cure would be better heads, ported -1's minimum and a cam that matches, along with a gear change, probably down to 4.10.
                                 
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                                • Walker434

                                  Walker434 Well-Known Member

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                                  This goal should be easy! There was a guy on Memphis Street Outlaws this week that claimed he only had $5,000 in his car!

                                  BTW, this is my version of trying to be funny. It will be a very difficult goal but I agree you will have a blast trying! Good luck!
                                   
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                                  • PRH

                                    PRH Well-Known Member

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                                    What I see as typical, for a reasonably well matched/sorted bracket car is....... the car will run about 90% of the corrected dyno hp...... if you’re racing in “reasonable” air.

                                    500hp on the dyno...... shows 450hp on the calculator.

                                    I have a few customers with bracket cars that run real close to right on the dyno hp number........ but typically it’s 90%........ and many times it’s quite a bit worse.
                                    Which is usually the case for a combo that’s had any concessions made for street use.
                                     
                                    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
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                                    • fishmens67

                                      fishmens67 Well-Known Member

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                                      as all the slow guys respond...……………………………………………………………………………………………………...……. lol
                                      You can't do it...…………………………………...…….. lol
                                       
                                    • PRH

                                      PRH Well-Known Member

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                                      A stock 360, aftermarket intake, 750 carb, headers, cam, mild head work...... should easily make 300hp.

                                      In an optimized race car, that would be enough power to run 12.40’s @ 104.
                                      If it was a 90% combo it could run 12.80’s at 101.

                                      13.30 @3400lbs shows about 240hp.
                                      So, if the motor made the 280-300hp it “should”, you have what’s likely about an 80-85% combo.
                                       
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