1500USD to build as much horse in a 360 as possible. What would you do?

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NorthernSwede

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Hi!

I just wanted to know what you guys would have done in my place to get as much power and reliability out of my Mopar 360 as possible.

You have 1 complete stock MoPar 360 and 1500USD to spend!

I want as much horsepower as possible for that amount of money but the torque is by far more important than high RPM horsepower!

I have a good (If i may say so myself) experience of building motors and cars in general though this is my first v8! All previous experiences has been with old Volvo engines (I'm from Sweden i have to ad in my defence)

All workshop jobs like boring and such (except porting and balancing) is not included in the total cost since my best friend owns a workshop.

Other than that i just want to ad: no nitrous, no turbos, no superchargers, no stroker and i have no part lying in the garage!

I hope all of you see this as a good challange and opportunity to help!
Best wishes from the soon to be snow covered Arctic Circle.

Oh! The engine will be running 98 octane (swedish no idea wha that octane level ecuals in the U.S)

p.s I ask you to excuse any miss spellings since english is not my native tounge d.s
 
Can you start by telling us exactly what you are working with? What year block, has it ever been apart, head casting numbers, intake and carb setup, etc. It will give us all a little help to see what parts you should or shouldnt replace. Oh, and welcome to the best forum on the web- A body or Not!!
 
Best bang for the buck modifications always seem to have these in common
1) dual exhaust
2) headers
3) intake like an RPM Air Gap
4) camshaft

More expensive modifications include
5) high compression pistons
6) head porting

I would thing the first 4 or 5 would keep you within your budget

Check out the 360 combos on this site

http://www.mopar1.us/dyno.html

Many of these are economical packages.
 
I would say first.....get some pistons that will get you a good decent compression ratio....around 9.75 to 1. See what heads you have and the combustion chamber volume and figure it out. Then maybe a decently hot solid roller cam, if possible. This cam alone will probably set you back close to $1000.00, so maybe it's too expensive. You could do the porting yourself, with a Mopar Performance template kits (if they are still available). Also, zero-deck the block (since you access to a machine shop) and degree the cam in. You'll definitely want an aftermarket intake/headers too.
 
Oh but thats just the point! At the moment i really doesn't know what stuff are in it! The car is 1200 kilometers away, I'm going to get it next week. It's a '66 Dodge Dart Gt. Obviously not stock engine, the carb is atm a 2 port whatever. The car runs like **** because of poor carb settings. My guess is that the engine is an early one.

I've thought of the exhaust a bit and at least on my old volvo engines (don't know if it's comparable) but the only thing that did any real difference to those were headers but 550USD for headers to the dart seem *a bit* expensive, any other solutions?

My guess is that the engine has NEVER seen any kind of restoration or repairs since it's been cruised by 18year olds since it was put in the car some twentyish years ago.

Best Wishes
 
Can't you get *cheap* headers over there?.......like Hedman or any other mail order ones like from Summit Racing?

Or you could make your own!.....there are kits!
 
It is a matter of debate, but I've heard others argue that there is no use making any modifications until you have dual exhaust and headers. Headers will give you more hp at all rpms with no other mods. They also increase torque. They will bite into your budget but I think that they would be money well spent. They are probably among the cheapest hp/$ changes you can make.
 
Well since my welder ran away (father gave it away) I don't really have any opportunities to build my own. Sad but true.

Well MoPar parts isn't that plentiful on this side of the atlantic and the cheapest headers for the following options -66 Dodge Dart 360 SB on Summit costs 604USD + shipping of 'bout 200...

Sure I could probably find someone to do them for me but I really don't find myself with time to let one of my friend spend the next 8 months building headers :D I want my car ASAP!
 
NorthernSwede said:
Well MoPar parts isn't that plentiful on this side of the atlantic and the cheapest headers for the following options -66 Dodge Dart 360 SB on Summit costs 604USD + shipping of 'bout 200...
Click to expand...

Wow! How about used headers?.......is it the exchange rate that is making them cost $604? That's crazy!......but there's always an alternative!
 
Yeah, used ones would be an option! But extremely hard to find if one of you guys dont happen to have a pair that you are willing to part with for the right amount of cash ;) One thing is clear, I don't want no clean engine compartment that screams "I've been prepped!" so a pair of rusty headers is no problem at all!
 
Buy a crate 408. $6000, plus shipping;alum heads etc; up to 545 HP. Drop in, just need carb and dist.
 
1967DartGT said:
Best bang for the buck modifications always seem to have these in common
1) dual exhaust
2) headers
3) intake like an RPM Air Gap
4) camshaft

More expensive modifications include
5) high compression pistons
6) head porting

I would thing the first 4 or 5 would keep you within your budget

Check out the 360 combos on this site

http://www.mopar1.us/dyno.html

Many of these are economical packages.
Click to expand...

The truest part of the above is " best bang ". So many people thing they can bolt a bunch of external crap on a tired old engine then go racing.

After the engine blows up , the previously new carb, intake, headers, ignition, etc.. is all used and worthless.
 
Depends on if you need to do anything to the bottom end. As long as the bores, pistons, rings, bearings, etc are good, you could bolt on some good used heads, 302's or magnum heads have smaller combustion chambers, so that will give you a little more compression without changing pistons or zero decking the block. Add a decent cam, lifters, springs, pushrods, intake carb, and headers. Convert it to electronic ignition if it's not already. You might be able to make it on $1500, but it would be pushing it.
Used/rebuilt heads; $300-$600
Cam, lifters, timing chain; $250
Valve springs; $80
Intake (used); $100-$150
Carb (used); $200
Headers (used); $150-250

That puts you in the $1100-$1600 range. But keep in mind, something always comes up that you don't count on. I'm by no means an expert, but that will get you some power.

Best thing to do if you want lots of power though is to rebuild the whole engine. If you need to drive the car, then find another engine for cheap and slowly build it as time and money allows.
 
RedFish said:
The truest part of the above is " best bang ". So many people thing they can bolt a bunch of external crap on a tired old engine then go racing.

After the engine blows up , the previously new carb, intake, headers, ignition, etc.. is all used and worthless.
Click to expand...

True enough RedFish. I made a generalization about the typical power mods that might keep him within his budget as he asked. You bring up a good point and I should have included the caveat that these need to be made on an adequate bottom end. But as he stated, he is capable of doing much of the basic required engine work in his friends workshop, so I made the assumption that he would not be starting with a tired old engine.

Even though his budget may not seem like it is enough to some folks, $1500 really is alot of money for me and many others to justify to ourselves or to our families for our hobbies, especially in the current economy. I would hate for any of my advise to lead to a loss of his investment. I am in a similar situation with limited funds, so where would you suggest the $1500 be best spent first, assuming the shortblock is adequate?
 
It's most often the young guys that add the bolt on goodies, especially loud exhaust. Then they start poundings on the throttle like they are stomping out a fire.
They dont realize they're stretching the timing chain and just begging it to fail.
I know a guy who spent 600 on new heads for a chevy 350 in his work van.
The bottom end came apart before he got out from under his shade tree.
My suggestion is contiune saving. Build a complete engine.
 
Sound like I will be doing what I've always done before.
Build a overkill bottom end and make power when I have the time.
Remember just because this is me first 8 I'm not new to building engines and will not try to NOS a rusted up old WV engine thinking it will hold. My first step here will be Pistons, Bearings, Oil pump, Timing chain and so forth..


NEW question.
I've read many bad things about the stock 360 heads mostly concerning their compresion ratio. What IS the stock compression ratio of an old 360?
And how high can ju get it with single decking and a decent pair of pistons (suggestions? no overkill max. 500 horse)? What to do to make them flow better? What size intakes and exhaust valves and how good can you make them?

Federal Moguls Engine rebuild kits, are they good? And do they come with high compression pistons (they seem to have a good price)

I have found the following on summit racings website.
Comp Cams Timing set, Clevite Main and camshaft bearings, Crower Camshaft accessory kit, Edelbrock Stainless 2.02 intake valve, Fel Pro full gasket set, Federal Mogul Rod bearings, MElling +25% Oil pump.

Anything you would change or add?
What I know I need help with are Rods and Pistons.

Best Wishes
 
Maybe you could get the casting numbers off the heads and start looking around the internet, to find out the combustion chamber volume. They're probably around 76cc or so.....anyway, if I remember correctly, the problem with the 360s was the pistons were usually "dished", which dropped the ratio AND were a little "deep in the hole" @ TDC. I think it's not hard or too expensive to find reasonably priced hypereutectics that will give you around 9.8 to 1.

A lot of piston manufacturers' websites will have graphs that show a particular piston's compression ratio, based on which cc head you've got. Maybe you could shot peen and polish the rods as well.....if you get free access to that machine shop.

Yeah, that engine kit sounds good to me....
 
Why dished? Won't it make a hell of a difference just putting domed ones in?
Why polish the rods? Never done that. Making sure they weigh the same is standard bur never heard of polished rods :D
 
NorthernSwede said:
Why dished? Won't it make a hell of a difference just putting domed ones in?
Why polish the rods? Never done that. Making sure they weigh the same is standard bur never heard of polished rods :D
Click to expand...

Errrr.....no, you DON'T want dished ones. I'm just saying, that's what came from the factory back in the 70's and it's not good for compression. Sometimes the higher domed pistons a little bit pricey, but I'm sure you can find something reasonable. Polishing the side beams of the rods (I've always heard) helps prevent cracks from forming. Google it.
 
Yeah that's whatI meant =) It's seems near insane to use dished ones!
In all my engines before I used domed ones to get compression up.Hmm interesting I wonder why that would be, seems strange to me but I will follow your advise and google it!


And oh! I get a 318 Mopar with the car. Can't you use those heads for higher compression?
 
Just a couple things to think about:

* It would be nice if you were able to borrow a "torque plate", even if it would cost you shipping (closer the better). They bolt to the block for boring and final honing to simulate the stress of a head being bolted on. It will help keep the bores round, help seal and the rings will last longer.

* 318 heads might help compression and torque, but the ports are too small to make good, higher rpm horsepower. But "302" casting closed chamber heads have been made to work well with proper porting.

* Most of the older 360 heads are similar. You can't go wrong with light porting, particularly in the valve bowl area. Original 1.88" intake valves can work as well or better than 2.02" valves. But 2.02" intakes are easy to find and opening up the seats with a good valve job will position the valves on new valve seats further in the chamber and help flow. (Sinking valves, like after several valve jobs, hurts flow.) Blueprint/equalize the combustion chambers, but keep all of the valve heights the same.

* Domed pistons raise compression a lot but can raise it too much for your fuel. Aftermarket flat top pistons would work well, if they fit into your budget. KB and Speed Pro are good options, but FOLLOW THEIR DIRECTIONS. You can mill the block and heads a bit too. (Don't forget to mill the intake to fit because head and block milling will bring the heads closer together and the intake manifold will sit too high and cause problems. Actual OEM compression was always less than the advertised ratio.

* Once you start changing things in the rotating assembly, you will have to rebalance it. It gets a little more complicated with the 360 because it's externally balanced. It should have a counterweighted balancer/damper up front as well as a weighted converter/flexplate or flywheel at the back.

* Adding much horsepower without modifying the rest of the drivetrain with more gear, converter/clutch, suspension, etc. will not work well. All the power in the world won't do anything if you can't get it to the ground efficiently. So you can't get carried away. Stay conservative with the cam.
If you have the original stamped hydraulic rocker arms, find some spares. See what the cam manufacturer suggests for your cam choice.

* Here is a mild 360 combo with a variety of exhaust manifold and header comparisons.
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/...pp_0307_mopar_crate_engine_exhaust/index.html
 
I wouldnt touch the lower end except to add an HV pump, new oil pump drive and bushing, and a windage tray. Stick a new mild cam in there (XE268 or similar) with the matching valve springs, a new timing set, Get a dual plane intake and Edelbrock oe Holley (no larger than 650), spend the rest on getting a nice dual exh system custom bent. As soon as you tear into the shortblock deeper you will spend more money. Euro 98 is equal to our 93 as I recall. So simple is cheaper and better.
 
Oh, exactly how do you balance an externally balanced engine?

Stress plate and sunken valves was quite obvious actually....
Thanks anyway but as I said, I've built engines before, only not v8s. =)
 
Ok, sorry. Wasn't sure if you knew about stress/torque/honong plates. From what I understand, sunken valves tend to hurt Mopar engines more than others.

As for balancing an exterally balanced engine, you just have to spin the crank & bob weights with the counterweighted balancer on the front. I'm not sure how it's done on the rear - the correct counterweighted B&M flexplate can be used when using a neutral torque converter. Otherwise, I don't know if they actually bolt on the converter also that has the OEM weights welded on it.
 
I really think you will have more money into it than $1500US but you must begin somewhere. I agree with Moper and others, on such a limited budget, I would keep it pretty simple:

The bottom end would be rebuilt using a quality rebuild kit using moly rings, and possibly KB107 pistons. The heads would also just get a stock type rebuild with a 3 angle valve job and a basic port clean up.

Cam wise, a Comp XE262 or XE268, depending on your exhaust system. Comp does a "K kit" which comes with lifters, chain, springs and such.

Edelbrock Performer RPM (non-air gap) intake and an Edelbrock 1406 or 1407 carb, again depending on your exhaust system.

If this engine will be installed into a 66 or earlier A body, the exhaust system will be your biggest challenge. You could quite easily spend your entire budget on the exhaust. As you have noticed, headers which do not require cutting the fenderwells out are quite expensive for this car. If you plan on racing or building a more powerful engine in the future, buy the Hooker Super Comps and start cutting. If you plan to use the original cast iron exhaust manifolds, the XE262 cam and 1406 carb would be a better choice. No point in a 6000 RPM cam with 4000 RPM manifolds.

A totally stock 360 with the XE262 cam and 1406 carb will move 66 Dart around quite well. It will certainly have enough power to destroy the original rear axle.

Also, to balance an "externally balanced" engine, the crank damper, and torque converter must be spun with the crank, as they are part of the counterweight system.
 
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