4 speed ka-booom !

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new countershaft (do not skip this)
trans gel assembly lube (unless you want to chase rollers or find one in bottom of case when your done)
snap ring assortment pack (always use largest one you can then shim) get it tight. order 2pks
snap ring shim pack enables you to make up for lack of snap ring thickness order 2 pks
get steel forks used from overdrive 4 speed. save $$$$
new strut keys
new syncronizer springs
roller pilot bearing for 1990's dodge dakota get rid of bronze POS
why new gearshift levers ? did you mic them ?
why new levers ? you win the lottery ?
most important thing is take pics as you take it apart. (I know you forgot)
Now for all that, that cast iron pig is almost indestructible( you could reassemble it with a gasket kit, syncros, small parts kit and counter shaft and be fine)
Strut keys are in good shape and the counter shaft shows no wear. the synchronizers - I did list already. I already have a newer style pilot bearing. I need new gear shift levers because the old ones have stripped threads and buggered up a little bit. I wish I won the lottery or I'd be just ordering a brand new transmission and calling it a day and I do think I mentioned getting the steel shifter levers....
Thank you for double checking my double check list :burnout:
 
You cannot convert a ball detent cover to a rooster comb cover if that's what you are thinking. But if your ball-detent levers have stripped threads or well rounded corners from running loose, well those are hard to repair.
The reverse lever is cover specific, so if yours is not too badly damaged, I would not change it.I would, however renew the O-ring on it.
I use any light grease to hold the needles. Vaseline is too light at room temp, but works if it's cooled.
As to the C/S, they have 4 lives; this way,that way, upsidedown way, repeat,lol. I'm running a 1968 model.
Personally, I'd buy 2 sets of brass rings. On account of it doesn't take much of a tweak to get them out-of-round, which makes them more or less junk. I have saved them but it takes a special touch.You may end up not needing to open the second pack, but ..................better to have the option, than wait for another pack to arrive. And you'll need em sooner or later. It's a normal wear part.

I have a ball detent - all great stuff thank you!
 
You call yourself yellow ? (rose)
Your coming on way to strong, way to quickly. And to be honest all of your help got lost in your attitude.
let us recap- shall we ?
First I've never seen you on this forum and your telling me what I BETTER learn to do ?
And what to learn, what to look at?
You talk about streetable ? I only drive it on the street to test to make sure new parts work before I go to the dragstrip.
I'm sure your wife drives your car and I hope she enjoys it! My wife has her own and works on it and enjoys it (66 barracuda)
I think you're starting to get my point here that I'm not trying to make an enemy and I sure appreciate all of your help that it seems like your trying to give. please reread what you've written and read it as if its being said to you and see if that's the way you like being talked too?
I'm not going to be put in my place by a forum newbie and that's that! Let's work this out and help each other that's what the forms for.
hi, actually, you need to learn about clutches and how they work! base pressure, c/w, lockup rpm. flywheel weight. it all matters . the more you learn , easier it is. I have ran 4 speed duster for 38 years now. I had very little problems. I ran b&b/long pressure plate for years, kept lowering the base down, car went faster, then went to a softloc, far better setup. also, I ran the 833 trans for 30 years. I had it proshifted . means there are dog rings welded to gear, last far longer and stronger versus a slick shifted gear. the sliders were same ones from the start. the thing is, most guys put in the stiffest clutch and break parts, and will not change &. they keep breaking more parts!!! one guy talked about stockers , all use a good clutch, they launch very hard & fast!! if you keep the 8 3/4 then you should think about heat treating the ring gear to soften it up , will triple the life of it.
yes it does work. been there before. thing is guys are trying to educate you. that's how you learn. you do have to sort out the bs from the truth. BTW, I'm not newbe!!!
 
hi, actually, you need to learn about clutches and how they work! base pressure, c/w, lockup rpm. flywheel weight. it all matters . the more you learn , easier it is. I have ran 4 speed duster for 38 years now. I had very little problems. I ran b&b/long pressure plate for years, kept lowering the base down, car went faster, then went to a softloc, far better setup. also, I ran the 833 trans for 30 years. I had it proshifted . means there are dog rings welded to gear, last far longer and stronger versus a slick shifted gear. the sliders were same ones from the start. the thing is, most guys put in the stiffest clutch and break parts, and will not change &. they keep breaking more parts!!! one guy talked about stockers , all use a good clutch, they launch very hard & fast!! if you keep the 8 3/4 then you should think about heat treating the ring gear to soften it up , will triple the life of it.
yes it does work. been there before. thing is guys are trying to educate you. that's how you learn. you do have to sort out the bs from the truth. BTW, I'm not newbe!!!

I know your not a new b , and I'm positive I have a lot to learn. Its just that yellow guy came out of nowhere with his long winded post about what I need to do and what I should do and talking about a streetable car that his wife can drive. I guess comparing my abilities to push in the clutch or scared to push in a hard clutch. I just honestly didn't like the way he came off and came out of nowhere.
I'm no clutch pro by any measure, but I got what I asked for from this last clutch and it was to much for my setup. I plan to tweak my whole setup before next season.
 
everyone want's to be MR FOURSPEED.
keep at it Jpar. I like your style.
 
nothing complicated about a mopar 4 speed but your wisdom and advise to someone who wants to learn is sure helpful. :finga:

Jpar know's what he want's and is just trying to get there his way.
not your way.
 
nothing complicated about a mopar 4 speed but your wisdom and advise to someone who wants to learn is sure helpful. :finga:
I am for surely listening to everybody And taking all their words of kindness and help into consideration but again I can't go running out and doing exactly what everybody tells me to do. Case and point the guy who told me I need to take my head off and run it down to the machine shop and have it check for cracks when it just was a simple case ceiling the intake manifold a little better. I do appreciate everybody's help and comments I just got a little perturbed to read through someones comment as there more or less putting me down for not knowing what they know or think they know. (Mr. Yellow)
perfacar put it correctly - i have to sort through the BS.

anyways - all the rebuild parts are on their way so I/we can start putting together the 4 speed.
thank you everyone :prayer: :banghead: lol for your time and help
 
I had to look up the word perturbed hahaha. Appreciate you're ability to defuse the potential thread bomb and keep in on track. Keep us posted on the rebuild.
 
You call yourself yellow ? (rose)
Your coming on way to strong, way to quickly. And to be honest all of your help got lost in your attitude.
let us recap- shall we ?
First I've never seen you on this forum and your telling me what I BETTER learn to do ?
And what to learn, what to look at?
You talk about streetable ? I only drive it on the street to test to make sure new parts work before I go to the dragstrip.
I'm sure your wife drives your car and I hope she enjoys it! My wife has her own and works on it and enjoys it (66 barracuda)
I think you're starting to get my point here that I'm not trying to make an enemy and I sure appreciate all of your help that it seems like your trying to give. please reread what you've written and read it as if its being said to you and see if that's the way you like being talked too?
I'm not going to be put in my place by a forum newbie and that's that! Let's work this out and help each other that's what the forms for.

How did you get your feeling hurt by what I posted? Did I put you in your place? I didn't think so, but this I can tell you, I have done what you are doing, where you are doing it, the same way you are doing it. It won't work. Is that hard to hear? Everything I posted was 100% correct. If you got your feelings hurt that's on you.

So let me recap: Forum duration and forum post count mean nothing to those who DO. How long I have been here, and how many times I post, is only relevent to one whose arrogance exceeds his ignorance (and possibly many need look up up the definition of those 2 words so no one else gets their feelings hurt) because forums are not where the real stuff happens. If you can't learn from me, that is your problem not mine.

My point about "streetability" had two functions, both already served. First, I knew, I f'ing well KNEW, that someone would come along and tell you how they "modified" some piece of crap clutch and how "wonderful" his stuff is and how he never breaks parts. I can tell you that may be, but he is giving up ET and "driveablity" and he just don't know it. He has never used a sintered iron disc and low base (static) pressure plate so how could he know? He never tried an aluminum FW or using counter weight to TUNE his clutch so how could he know? He doesn't. He never tests, never learns from thos who before him, trod the same ground. He's a hero, he'll cut his own path, reality be damned (that is actually me when I was younger and I try to help those who are coming along now ESPECIALLY the stick guys to not do and be the things I was). Proper medicine never tastes good.

Second, when I started doing this (probably before you were born, and I was probably doing my "stuff" in your very neighborhood now...in fact you'd be hard pressed from the Gut to Woodburn, St. Johns to Gresham and all points in between, to cover the ground I have been on...sound familiar???????????) the "hot ticket" was the green 3100# DC pressure plate with the 6 roller assist. If you had it in gear at a stop light you leg would twitch and shiver, sweat would build on the brow and my butt would pucker just trying to keep the pedal down. That JUNK broke thousands of dollars of parts, cost me money on a couple of runs and kept me from racing a few guys I knew I could take cash from. But I was slow to discern.

Then I went to Friction Supply (has a different name now) dropped the pressure to 2400#'s, lost the rag disc and went to "metallic" discs and went faster, but would still kill parts. It took me years to LEARN. Why is my telling you to LEARN a bad thing? Maybe you will pass it one to someone else. or maybe, you might save some money. If you LEARN how clutches function, rather than listen to a bunch of keyboard jockeys who have never tried anything labeled "racing" parts. Learn, learn, LEARN how this stuff WORKS. Someone said if you "slick shift" a gear box it's junk. That is wrong. Simple really. He is WRONG. You can do it, do it correctly, at home, for less than $100.00 (even less if you already own a grinder) and have a car that is street driveable and yet you can race it at the track. If you are bound and determined to be hard boiled about it, just slick shift it that way the books says and be done with it. The you can't street drive it, unless you can match RPM to road speed to down shift, and you don't mind holding the stick in gear.

Third, I read my post BEFORE I posted it, read it after, and read it again today. YOU have a problem, not me. If you want me to soothe your ego, like many here do, you have mistaken me for a poser. I don't soothe ego's, I'm way too old for that.

I respect someone who gives it to me straight. As they say, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. That is what you are asking me to do. You made mistakes. I called you on them, not to embarrass you, but to get your attention. I can see you are more concerned with how you are percieved on the web, than how your car performs. I earn no money from you, I don't need your money to pay my bills so I don't have to treat you like a customer. I treated you like one racer to another, who has done what you are doing. And all you care about is the perceived wrong I did to you but being straight with you. That's on you.

Go back and reread what I posted. Then, get on the phone tomorrow and CALL some industry people who can tell you the truth. Indusrty people who manufacture actual RACING clutches and transmissions. People like McLeod, Hyatt clutches, Black Magic Clutches (Cale Aronson is BMC and does my clutches) Jercico transmissions (who will tell you straight up you CAN'T use more than 1400 pounds of base pressure on their trans or you will KILL it so even if you bought a Jerico and used you clutch you have now, you would still bust parts), call G-Force transmissions (always willing to help me with gear selection, FW weight and such, but I don't call them and tell them how smart I am, I tell them I'm lost and need to know how to fix it) Call Libertys Gears, they have ALWAYS been helpful to me, even when I wasn't using their rings and sliders. See what they say. But if you talk to them the way you reacted to me, none of it will help. I'm not the problem, just a small cog in the giant wheel of a solution for your problems.

Hopefully you read this and are starting to get my point. You judge me on how many "posts" I have, how "long" I have been here and junk like that. That's just silly. So let me give you a FINAL recap, and then I will leave you to your demons. Here it is:

You need a new clutch. Period.
It MUST be a sof-lok STYLE of clutch. PERIOD. (There are more than 1 way to skin a cat but you still have to skin the cat, right?)
You MUST figure out a way to get a HEAVY, sintered iron disc to shift above 6500 RPM or so unless your shift RPM is less than that. The only ways I KNOW are 3. Slick shift, Liberty Pro shift (very expensive) or face tooth (even more $$$$). I guess a 4th would be an aftermarket box, but without the correct clutch, you will kill it too.
You MUST LEARN how manual transmissions and CLUTCHES function, specifically in a clutch shifted operation. Clutchless boxes take a different clutch set up. Otherwise, you will follow the pied pipers right to the broken pile of parts.
When you are all done, and get it correct, you wife SHOULD be able to get into the car and drive it to the store. I know you think it's a race car and noting crosses over, but it does.
Reread my posts and tell me where I'm wrong, not in how I presented the materiel to you, but on content. If you want my help, I will surely give it. Unless you want me to fluff your ego. If that's what you want, then you can do as Stevie Nicks once sand. You can go your own way.
 
I am for surely listening to everybody And taking all their words of kindness and help into consideration but again I can't go running out and doing exactly what everybody tells me to do. Case and point the guy who told me I need to take my head off and run it down to the machine shop and have it check for cracks when it just was a simple case ceiling the intake manifold a little better. I do appreciate everybody's help and comments I just got a little perturbed to read through someones comment as there more or less putting me down for not knowing what they know or think they know. (Mr. Yellow)
perfacar put it correctly - i have to sort through the BS.

anyways - all the rebuild parts are on their way so I/we can start putting together the 4 speed.
thank you everyone :prayer: :banghead: lol for your time and help

Geezus I just saw this. Classic.

I didn't put you down. I told you the truth. Now I'll tell you one more truth. You don't know everything. In fact, when it comes to drag racing sticks, I can say you know next to nothing. Rather than running your mouth like an ***, you SHOULD have PM'd me instead of calling me out. I'm the last enemy you want, bank on that.

Last truth for you: GROW UP.
Those of us who have spent our lifetimes doing this **** don't want to help guys who whine like girls.

Take the advice I gave you in my few posts to you, cuz that's the LAST you'll get from me.
 
The long winded award go's to : yellow rose !!!!
I'm not even going to try and read that mess before I finish the book I'm currently working on...lol
oh yeah - just got a dana 60 :cheers: with a great looking set of 410's $160...View attachment 20151018_134901.jpg
 
Re: yellow rose, yes ott's fiction supply is now fleet pride. Anyways, I did talk with Steve their clutch builder in person on a few occasions and he told me would build me whatever I wanted.
One racer to another, I have met only the nicest people at the racetrack Locally and are willing to give their most friendliest best advice. We always have a great time help each other out BBQ and so forth. This car and everything around it is only for my enjoyment and fun, is not for drama or making enemies or anything like that whether it be internet or otherwise. As far as I'm concerned if it becomes too much trouble I can drive it to the top of the Willamette Park boat ramp and put it neutral let ride into the water. I would rather turn this into something friendly(like at the track) instead of a pissing match that I will no longer participate in like my signature says having fun!
 
^^ so AJ, I'm to lightly sand? 120 grit? The machined cone area that the synchronizers ride on ?
 
NO and yes. This is done on a lathe.With fresh cloth. Drawn over a stiff,hard,smooth, iron bar,such as a lathe-file. The cloth covered file is held in two hands, and passed over the cone, in a sweeping motion. It starts off with a light touch, to stabilize the file on the cone, with ever increasing pressure,then a pressure reduction as the file is lifted off the cone. I do it with the cone spinning into the file, at a pretty good speed.(no idea as to the speed, perhaps about 500rpm) I usually give it two or three light swipes. If the speed is too high, the file will tend to bounce. If the speed is too slow, or the pressure is too high, you may create ruts for the brass to grab onto,way too hard. All you want to do is take the shine off. There is no need to rub off more material than necessary.
BUT
What I do is bias the polish, by changing the direction of the lathe depending which gear I'm working on, and I run the cloth-covered file off the edge of the cone as I'm sweeping it. This puts a "screw" on the cone. If you do it in the right direction, and to just the right degree, the brass ring will lock hard onto that cone in the upshift direction,for a quick upshift, while sacrificing some lock and speed during the downshift.This requires a bit of skill and timing, and the result does not last forever. But for a few thousand miles it's pretty cool.
Do not do it on 1st, as it will lock on much too quickly, and cause engagement issues when stopped.If anything, you could bias the polish for downshifting, especially if you are running a 3.09low/direct 4th box.
This works best on wide tranny ratios where the %rpm drops are large, or at high rpm shifting, when again the rpm differences when outshifting is great. If you are using the 2.47 box and/or redlining at 6000 rpm, There is little to be gained(although still noticeable). But for a guy with a 3.09-O/D box, or a guy with a 2.66 box and shifting at 7200(pick me!), it will be quite noticeable. And, of course, on the bench you will be impressed. If you are not impressed, you haven't done it right, or the ring is crap; try it on a different cone.
Yeah,that's what I do.Among other things. I outlined some details for another member here; 340jimmy. I think it was public. Do a search.
Happy shifting!
 
I don't have a lathe , what would I risk (2.66 tranny) if I clean everything, grease the crap out of everything, through in the new syncronizers brewers sends, and use a hurst v-gate to shift at 5900-6300 rpm ? :burnout:

I'm always happy shifting
 
go for it, keep it simple for the fun of it. I use 80/90 semi synthetic in the trans. and spool rear, with a v-gate street and strip shifting at 7000 for the last 30 years. broke some axles until I got the best-Mark Williams
 
Well first off, I'm a little curious why your shift rpm is so vague, and so short. But I suppose you haven't had enough time or enough runs, to have that nailed down yet.
Otherwise, like Marco says "go for it."
BUT, IMHO, not deglazing the cones, leaves a lil something on the table. And not to challenge anybody, but I had very little success using synthetic in my tranny until I modded the cones. That stuff is some slippery!I suspect Marco has some tips on using synthetic.
 
^^ AJ - I seemingly short shift because it seems to run out of steam at 5900. Likely do to stock 596heads 1.88-1.60 valves ? It seems the cam and very well balanced rotating assembly want to keep going, but time slips don't seem to get better. So, I set the shift light at 5900 and completely depending on how much fun I'm having (or if that ford Mustang wants to try and get in front of me) i hold it out longer, but again time slips don't seem to show improvement.
i just had a friend who was telling me this morning in fact he put synthetic gear oil in his tranny and was having trouble. So , I'm also curious as to what marco has to offer on the subject.
now I've heard of using synthetic oil's after break in ?
 
Yeah if you're shifting at the top of the power curve I think you may not be trapping as well as you could be. But if your combo hits a wall at 5900, I could be wrong.
My combo looks kinda like the one in this link http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/TechArticles/land_dyno.jpg Notice the shape of the curve,off to the right. I can tell you that the power does not drop off very fast up there but continues at least another 800 rpm or more. So if my powerband,dictated by the tranny, was 71%(which is the approximate split with the 2.66box), and I shifted at 5800(the approximate power peak), I would be dropping in at 4118rpm, where it comes in at something like 330hp. BUT, if I carry the rpm up to 6800, where power might be 400, I would drop in at 4828, where the hp looks to be just a tick under 400hp.What this means is that, even though the car may be slowing down at 6800, it will be dropping in at 70 hp more, in the next higher gear, where it really needs the boost. This is putting more average hp down during the run.
Now let's say your tranny had tighter ratios, like 78%. With this ratio, I could outshift at 6500/410 hp, and come in at 5070/410hp, thats even more average hp during the run. And the engine will appreciate the 300rpm lower shift point.
But let's say your engine hits a wall at 5900. And the hp falls off rather steeply thereafter. Without a dyno sheet, the optimum shift point can only be determined empirically,by running shift loops, and comparing mph numbers.The dyno sheet just gets you there a lil quicker.
Of course having the optimum rear gear, ensures trapping at the best point in the hp curve as well.This is a different point from the shift point.
I read that time slips don't seem to show an improvement. I hope you're keeping records, Cuz by looking at the mph numbers, you can get an idea of the average hp that she's putting down, using different shift points.The highest mph numbers, with a given rear gear, are indicating the highest average hp being put down.
There is a short-cut I have used. It involves those "stick-onto-the-window" accelerometers. This device purports to able to generate a HP chassis curve. Well I use mine for comparative purposes. The graph it generates is pretty small, but the data is useful. If you transfer the data to 8.5 x 11 graphpaper, you can see the shape of the power curve. By then using a straightedge, spanning the rising and falling sides of the curve, and adjusting the height of that straightedge, to generate a line,equal to your powerband, it will spit out your shiftpoint. It's pretty neat.
If you afterwards make changes to the engine, such as an intake, or a cam, you just generate a new graph, and the new shift rpm pops out. But, byNlarge, the shift point is dictated by the tranny ratio spreads. I love that tool. It saves tons of wear and tear on the engine,and tracktime, doing shift loops.That means more time having fun.
Be forwarned that tool is just a tool, and some shift loops do need to be run, eventually,to verify that the chosen points are in fact optimum.
 
I modded my tranny to work with synthetic. But I found, for my application, it wasn't any better shifting than running 50/50, ATF/80-90 conventional. But I'm a streeter.
I experimented with different ratios of ATF to EP. I found that generally 100% EP oil was slightly slower shifting. I surmised that the brass rings were having a hard time squeezing that fat oil off the cones. I also found that 100% ATF ,also seemed slower. I surmised that the thin oil was not helping to slow those big fat torque handling gears down. After trying a few different ratios, it seemed that 50/50 was as good as it gets.Being a streeter, there's no good way to prove it, so I left "good-as-it-gets" alone.
-----------
The mods for synthetic were simple. Knowing that, that stuff is so very slippery, my first thought was that the brass rings were gonna have a hard time doing their thing.The ring's job is to grab ahold of the cone and slow it down to synchronize the cone speed to the slider speed so that the shift can occur without grinding. Grinding is not good.So yeah, slapping synthetic in with no mods proved that.I also had a thought, that the struts were gonna have a hard time staying in their parking spots during the synchronization period. So down the tranny came. (By this time I was getting pretty good at that).
I modded all but 1st. What I did was cut a channel in the face of the cone. The idea was to provide a path for the synthetic oil to escape.That stuff sticks like glue.The channel was from the bottom of the cone to the top. I made it about 5/16 inch wide, and a little better than 1/16 inch deep. I used a die-grinder with about a 5/8inch (don't recall the exact size) cutting wheel.I made three of these on each cone, about 120* apart.Then I deglazed the cones, as described in a previous post.Then, as to the strut concern,I grabbed some extra energizer springs, and after stretching them all out a bit I doubled them up. I used the square section type. And finally,I slammed it all back together.(yeah I've got some assembly secrets,too). This worked really well, and I found out later, that this mod also works well with EP oil. That's all I needed to do.
With the pseudo slick shift mods I made, this tranny shifts like lightning. And with the re positioned shift-stick and 1/2 inch rods, missed shifts are a thing of the past.I cannot recall missing a shift since that early time, somewhere around 2004/5.
 
^^ AJ - I seemingly short shift because it seems to run out of steam at 5900. Likely do to stock 596heads 1.88-1.60 valves ? It seems the cam and very well balanced rotating assembly want to keep going, but time slips don't seem to get better. So, I set the shift light at 5900 and completely depending on how much fun I'm having (or if that ford Mustang wants to try and get in front of me) i hold it out longer, but again time slips don't seem to show improvement.
i just had a friend who was telling me this morning in fact he put synthetic gear oil in his tranny and was having trouble. So , I'm also curious as to what marco has to offer on the subject.
now I've heard of using synthetic oil's after break in ?

hi, the 1.88/1.60 valve does not quit at 5900 rpm. in a super stocker will go 8000 rpm, in a stocker, goes 7500 rpm, and they don't lay down!! sounds like lack of fuel volume? or valve springs? just food for thought.
 
For those who forgot the build,(me); from thread named "first pass with new stroker", post#21.
Any updates,j par?

×2 600 cfm edelbrocks tunnel ram, 596heads (home porting- smoothing exhaust ports/ opening under all seats just a little bit- not getting carried away here I'm a first timer) then back to the shop for valve job-1.60/1.88 . Solid cam (oregon cam regrind)crower double springs (350LB open), smith brothers push rods, cam- duration@ .50 - 259/267 lift gross 546/566 lash .026/.028 lob sep. 104/110
Av. 107. 273 rockers. 360 block, scat stroker (cast) crank, scat I-beams, icon forged flat tops - 10.8 : 1 with 70cc heads.* little moroso water pump motor, homemade electric fan shroud (fans bought from a member thank you!)stock ignition.

Of course this will be in my 73*duster
gutted
4 speed pistol grip
355 trac lock 8 1/4
26 in street slicks
 
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