416 dyno tuning help

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340kid

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looking for some dyno tuning suggestions for my sons 416
here is the recipe,
340 now 416 with scat rotating kit (cast crank, iconn 20.5 dish piston, etc)
arp main studs, decked, squared etc
RHS X heads prepped by Mike @ MRL, set up with Lunati pacaloy beehives, 2.02 / 1.625 valves,
Lunati Voodoo solid #60442 duration 280/288, @ .50 251/259, lift 566/586, lsa/icl 110/106
edelbrock air gap
Quick Fuel annular 750 ss750 AN
Kevco pan
custom comp pushrods
crane 1.5 ductile iron rockers with billet holddowns
trying to figure out some baseline HP & torque figures to compare to our results and some timing and jetting suggestions

initial startup and break in went well, initial pull before any tuning showed peak torque @470 @ 4200 rpm and HP peaked @ 427 @ 5800 rpm, the engine still wanted to pull but we held back @5800 for now.

we ran out of time but will continue Monday, timing initially was at 26, and we were running 72 jets on the primary side of the carb, (OOTB from Quickfuel) thinking of trying some spacers and messing with timing
please feel free to offer some suggestions for mondays tuning session

340Kid
 
Needs more timing!! Don't start changing things until you get pretty close on the timing and AF ratio's. I'd move the timing to 32-34 total and repull it watching the AF. If the AF looks good add timing until you stop seeing gains. Refine the AF ratios and then try spacers and modest timing changes. The other trouble is what you see on a dyno may not be the fastest way down the track and the tune may(often) need further refining in car.
 
340kid said:
looking for some dyno tuning suggestions for my sons 416
here is the recipe,
340 now 416 with scat rotating kit (cast crank, iconn 20.5 dish piston, etc)
arp main studs, decked, squared etc
RHS X heads prepped by Mike @ MRL, set up with Lunati pacaloy beehives, 2.02 / 1.625 valves,
Lunati Voodoo solid #60442 duration 280/288, @ .50 251/259, lift 566/586, lsa/icl 110/106
edelbrock air gap
Quick Fuel annular 750 ss750 AN
Kevco pan
custom comp pushrods
crane 1.5 ductile iron rockers with billet holddowns
trying to figure out some baseline HP & torque figures to compare to our results and some timing and jetting suggestions

initial startup and break in went well, initial pull before any tuning showed peak torque @470 @ 4200 rpm and HP peaked @ 427 @ 5800 rpm, the engine still wanted to pull but we held back @5800 for now.

we ran out of time but will continue Monday, timing initially was at 26, and we were running 72 jets on the primary side of the carb, (OOTB from Quickfuel) thinking of trying some spacers and messing with timing
please feel free to offer some suggestions for mondays tuning session

340Kid
Click to expand...

Nice job......if your talkin 26* total you need more timing. That engine should easily handle 32*-34* total pretty easy. I don't know what your mixture numbers were or your sec'd jetting, but i have to think you're lean at the top. Definately horsepower still on the table.
 
Thanks guys , we will resume Monday, the AF ratio was around mid 11's to 12 ,
What HP & torque figures you think it will eventually make ?
I was hoping 500 HP, 525 torque ??? Am I way off ?
 
Depends on the heads,tune and dyno,LOL The only combo I've run that was close? had Brodix B1-BA heads and the old UD 251@.050 .570 108 lsa grind and the comp was 11.2 to 1 made a great street strip engine but never ran it on a dyno. Ran low 11's @120mph with no tuning(and no traction) and an old junk 750 DP holley in a street car with not much converter or gear. I'd think if the heads are ported and the tune is good you could reach the numbers you want.
 
340kid said:
Thanks guys , we will resume Monday, the AF ratio was around mid 11's to 12 ,
What HP & torque figures you think it will eventually make ?
I was hoping 500 HP, 525 torque ??? Am I way off ?
Click to expand...

500 and 525 are attainable especially with the roller cam. I believe MadDart had a similar build with a solid cam, and it was in the same range, 515 and 520.

A/F's were low because the timing was very retarded. Get the timing up in the 32-34 range and the A/F's will clean up some. pump gas 91 swill out here it would probably like 32-33 max. Don't know what fuel you have. Is that reading with an actual probe or is it computer generated based on GPH and air flow?
 
AF ratio was with a probe into collector area I believe, the 60442 is a solid flat tappett not a roller, to me it seems numbers are low, maybe rings aren't seated yet
 

I thought I saw roller. Oops!

Yes it should be capable of 510-520hp and 520-530tq.

I bet it picks up 50+ hp just getting the timing in range!
 
Kid, i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in my opinion you wont make those numbers in the current configuation. Your A/F numbers show your not lean and while timing advances will help quite a bit, that 470 peak at only 4,200 is not gonna get you there. I'd like to see a dyno curve of your run. 420hp@5800 shows your torque curve is falling off alot on the top end. That's not a charecteristic normally seen with a 4" arm. I'm wondering if the cylinder head/cam combo is working for you. Also, if your only using 1 5/8" headers on the dyno, that's not helping the situation. Hopefully one of the engine builder/dyno guys will chime in.
 
OldmanRick said:
Kid, i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in my opinion you wont make those numbers in the current configuation. Your A/F numbers show your not lean and while timing advances will help quite a bit, that 470 peak at only 4,200 is not gonna get you there. I'd like to see a dyno curve of your run. 420hp@5800 shows your torque curve is falling off alot on the top end. That's not a charecteristic normally seen with a 4" arm. I'm wondering if the cylinder head/cam combo is working for you. Also, if your only using 1 5/8" headers on the dyno, that's not helping the situation. Hopefully one of the engine builder/dyno guys will chime in.
Click to expand...
The torque and HP peaks look good(1600rpm spread) and with a 4" crank you won't make power over 6000rpm with any conventional head without major work(no mild porting will help),W-2's,W-5',Indys etc are needed as the CSA of any production head is the limiter. The AF is rich which will kill the upper rpm HP and I'd expect good gains with timing and tuning. It will never make great HP numbers as it's very limited by the CSA. But for a street car it should be fun. Funny story for those that give a crap. I built and raced a 408" bracket engine for 8yrs. started with a set of junky home ported J heads,262.625 108lsa roller cam,ran 10.55@126mph best. Decided that a "better"head would help.LOL Swapped a set of Brodix B!-BA's with professional port work. Car slowed down .2 and 2mph. After a year of tuning and parts swapping went back to the junk heads and everything was good. I've seen this many times with Edelbrock heads,slower to no gains over a well ported junk head,despite good quench and yadda,yadda,LOL A little off track but to the OP,dyno numbers are just that.
 
goldmember said:
The torque and HP peaks look good(1600rpm spread) and with a 4" crank you won't make power over 6000rpm with any conventional head without major work(no mild porting will help),W-2's,W-5',Indys etc are needed as the CSA of any production head is the limiter. The AF is rich which will kill the upper rpm HP and I'd expect good gains with timing and tuning. It will never make great HP numbers as it's very limited by the CSA. But for a street car it should be fun. Funny story for those that give a crap. I built and raced a 408" bracket engine for 8yrs. started with a set of junky home ported J heads,262.625 108lsa roller cam,ran 10.55@126mph best. Decided that a "better"head would help.LOL Swapped a set of Brodix B!-BA's with professional port work. Car slowed down .2 and 2mph. After a year of tuning and parts swapping went back to the junk heads and everything was good. I've seen this many times with Edelbrock heads,slower to no gains over a well ported junk head,despite good quench and yadda,yadda,LOL A little off track but to the OP,dyno numbers are just that.
Click to expand...
Nice build, @126, you were making some serious power, especially with "J"s. I agree that with tuning he can pump that thing up quite a bit, just don't think he'll get what he was expecting. I can see a pretty good jump in torque at the peak, just not sure it will carry over high enough to get to 500 hp. And i agree, regardless of the final number, that will be a bada$$ street engine.
 
You definately need more timing and I think once you get that figured you can start really tuning the carb. There's more there, whether it's another 80-100hp is another question but IMO you're a little fat and it's short at least 8° of total timing. What head gasket was used? Were the pistons zero decked or down a little? The heads were set up by Mike and I have 100% faith in his abilities. But I'm assuming he did not assemble it. Did the assembler check the sweep pattern on the valve tip during assembly? There have been reports of rocker issues with those (and other) heads.
 
head gasket felpro 1008, .039 compressed, i believe the builder said the pistons were in the hole 4 thousandths, cam was installed per lunati specs
distrubutor is a mopar perf w/ vacuum, but it was plugged,
i'm hoping the timing will help !
 
bezt of luck and keep us posted, building one thid winter, and goldmember had the same prob had home ported j,s went to stage one eddy and slowed down .5 tenths got you beat lol:D
 
Last year I did a similar engine, our RHS heads with pushrod pinch porting only, 10.2:1 compression, our 251 solid FT cam on a 108lca, Scat kit like yours, airgap, 750DP, TTI step headers and 1.6 PRW rockers....it made 521HP at 6200 or 6400rpm, can't remember and 527TQ around 4700rpm.
So it would seem 500 should be attainable. 34° total timing seems to work best most times.
Brian
 
Thanks guys, when we go back we are going to set timing around 32-34 and change jetting on carb to 70's on primary side to get the AF ratio to at least 12.5
Also will be bringing TTI step headers, the motor was running some no name 1 5-8 header
Also need to find out what the final compression ratio is,
 
340kid said:
Thanks guys, when we go back we are going to set timing around 32-34 and change jetting on carb to 70's on primary side to get the AF ratio to at least 12.5
Also will be bringing TTI step headers, the motor was running some no name 1 5-8 header
Also need to find out what the final compression ratio is,
Click to expand...

Good luck. Results should be much better. Would wait to lean the carb until after a pull or two. Larger pipes and the timing changes may end up requiring more jet?
 
340kid said:
looking for some dyno tuning suggestions for my sons 416
here is the recipe,
340 now 416 with scat rotating kit (cast crank, iconn 20.5 dish piston, etc)
arp main studs, decked, squared etc
RHS X heads prepped by Mike @ MRL, set up with Lunati pacaloy beehives, 2.02 / 1.625 valves,
Lunati Voodoo solid #60442 duration 280/288, @ .50 251/259, lift 566/586, lsa/icl 110/106
edelbrock air gap
Quick Fuel annular 750 ss750 AN
Kevco pan
custom comp pushrods
crane 1.5 ductile iron rockers with billet holddowns
trying to figure out some baseline HP & torque figures to compare to our results and some timing and jetting suggestions

initial startup and break in went well, initial pull before any tuning showed peak torque @470 @ 4200 rpm and HP peaked @ 427 @ 5800 rpm, the engine still wanted to pull but we held back @5800 for now.

we ran out of time but will continue Monday, timing initially was at 26, and we were running 72 jets on the primary side of the carb, (OOTB from Quickfuel) thinking of trying some spacers and messing with timing
please feel free to offer some suggestions for mondays tuning session

340Kid
Click to expand...

I would think it would make significantly more than 500 HP....

MRL Performance got a 416 to 500 HP with ?less? flowing 1.94 intake 587 heads and a much smaller Comp 274S soild .502/.511 with 236/246 @.050 HERE :dontknow:
 
ou812 said:
Last year I did a similar engine, our RHS heads with pushrod pinch porting only, 10.2:1 compression, our 251 solid FT cam on a 108lca, Scat kit like yours, airgap, 750DP, TTI step headers and 1.6 PRW rockers....it made 521HP at 6200 or 6400rpm, can't remember and 527TQ around 4700rpm.
So it would seem 500 should be attainable. 34° total timing seems to work best most times.
Brian
Click to expand...

Brian Told me about this engine and I am doing the same setup. Im just pondering if I should pick up this 950 carb or wait and go EFI.
 
well we went back and made a few more pulls,
we added TTI step headers, bumped timing up and messed with jetting to get AF ratios in upper 12's low 13's

we picked up some torque and horsepower

best pull was with 1" spacer and total timing way up to 37 degrees ???

it seems like it wants even more timing, i'm wondering if its because final static compression is a bit low, it's at 9.6 and im thinking the timing is compensating for the lower compression

best pull was about 490 torque @ 4300 rpm, horsepower 460 @ 5600 rpm
 
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