66 valiant no start

[moparkrazed]

Hey guys, working on the valiant (170 slant six, still has points, 3 speed manuel trans). It fired off really easy before but let sit for a couple months while redoing the brake system. Went to fire ot off in hopes of driving it down the street for the first time. It would crank over but not fire. I tested the coil and wasnt getting any fire out of it. Swapped out with a new coil but that coil was bad out of the box. My uncle had a coil off his 318 and that one works. Put an inline coil/ spark plug tester on it and im getting fire out of coil and out of distributor to spark plugs. I sprayed starting fluid in the carb but its not even trying to start. I'm wondering if the battery is just too worn down? I charged it for 12 hours and showed a full charge but it only lasted for about 15 seconds of cranking. But I figured it would have at least tried to fire within that time with starter fluid in the carb. Should I be looking at the electrical box where the it ignition switch and starter wires all get tied together? Not sure of this post would go here, electrical, or slant six form, please let me know if I should move it. Thanks.

 

[413]

Remove and clean the spark plugs, they won’t spark if wet.

yes it sounds like a bad battery, it needs to crank with some speed.

 

[67Dart273]

Some more "basics"
You need compression, spark, and fuel

1...Compression--enough of it--have you checked compression? What is the miles on this engine and what condition is it in? You might consider checking the spark. Have the valves been adjusted? Is it possible they are sticky/ gummy after sitting? ALSO IT IS possible that you have enough fuel down in there to "wash down" the cylinder walls and decrease compression. Maybe squirt a little oil in each hole, crank it a bit to distribute, and re-check compression

2...SPARK---Hot enough spark and at at the right TIME. HOW did you check spark? If you are checking from the stock radio suppressed coil wire, this gives you a "poor picture." Use a test gap, connected to the coil with a SOLID core wire and you should get at least 3/8 and more likely 1/2" of hot blue spark.
Points/ condenser--If the spark is weak, maybe the points are old, coroded, burned. You MUST have a good condenser, and they can go bad. There is no easy way to test condensers, regardless of internet "wisdom." You need a special high-voltage leakage tester,--something you cannot duplicate

If you have left the key "on" while you are trying to start, you may have burned/ damaged the points

Condition of cap, wires, etch--check for dirt, debri, carbon, how old are the wires? Check the wires for individual continuity. Resistor/ radio wires "rule of thumb" is "no more" than 1000 ohms per foot of wire, good ones almost always less

3...Fuel........Are you using fresh fuel? Make sure. Regardless of condition of the tank/ pump/ carb, about a teaspoon of good fresh fuel down the carb through should result in the engine firing for a short time.

 

[67Dart273]

Some more "basics"
You need compression, spark, and fuel

1...Compression--enough of it--have you checked compression? What is the miles on this engine and what condition is it in? You might consider checking the spark. Have the valves been adjusted? Is it possible they are sticky/ gummy after sitting? ALSO IT IS possible that you have enough fuel down in there to "wash down" the cylinder walls and decrease compression. Maybe squirt a little oil in each hole, crank it a bit to distribute, and re-check compression

2...SPARK---Hot enough spark and at at the right TIME. HOW did you check spark? If you are checking from the stock radio suppressed coil wire, this gives you a "poor picture." Use a test gap, connected to the coil with a SOLID core wire and you should get at least 3/8 and more likely 1/2" of hot blue spark.
Points/ condenser--If the spark is weak, maybe the points are old, coroded, burned. You MUST have a good condenser, and they can go bad. There is no easy way to test condensers, regardless of internet "wisdom." You need a special high-voltage leakage tester,--something you cannot duplicate

If you have left the key "on" while you are trying to start, you may have burned/ damaged the points

Condition of cap, wires, etch--check for dirt, debri, carbon, how old are the wires? Check the wires for individual continuity. Resistor/ radio wires "rule of thumb" is "no more" than 1000 ohms per foot of wire, good ones almost always less

3...Fuel........Are you using fresh fuel? Make sure. Regardless of condition of the tank/ pump/ carb, about a teaspoon of good fresh fuel down the carb through should result in the engine firing for a short time.

4..Battery / starter........Clip your multimeter to the starter stud and block. When cranking, you should see AT LEAST 10.5V the more the better. If not, check connections/ cables / battery condition and charge

If you have more than 10.5 at the starter, move the meter to the coil + terminal, take TWO measurements. With key on in "run" position, if you see "full battery" either the points are open or bad. "Bump" engine until voltage drops, the points are now closed. You want to see maybe 8-10V or so at the coil. This shows the points are closed, drawing current

Now crank engine and read meter. USE THE KEY to do this. Now the bypass circuit is active, and the coil voltage when cranking should be "same as battery." IN other words if you got 11V at the starter stud when cranking, then you should see about that at the coil+ when cranking

 

[moparkrazed]

Some more "basics"































You need compression, spark, and fuel































































1...Compression--enough of it--have you checked compression? What is the miles on this engine and what condition is it in? You might consider checking the spark. Have the valves been adjusted? Is it possible they are sticky/ gummy after sitting? ALSO IT IS possible that you have enough fuel down in there to "wash down" the cylinder walls and decrease compression. Maybe squiHeyrt a little oil in each hole, crank it a bit to distribute, and re-check compression

Some more "basics"
You need compression, spark, and fuel

1...Compression--enough of it--have you checked compression? What is the miles on this engine and what condition is it in? You might consider checking the spark. Have the valves been adjusted? Is it possible they are sticky/ gummy after sitting? ALSO IT IS possible that you have enough fuel down in there to "wash down" the cylinder walls and decrease compression. Maybe squirt a little oil in each hole, crank it a bit to distribute, and re-check compression

2...SPARK---Hot enough spark and at at the right TIME. HOW did you check spark? If you are checking from the stock radio suppressed coil wire, this gives you a "poor picture." Use a test gap, connected to the coil with a SOLID core wire and you should get at least 3/8 and more likely 1/2" of hot blue spark.
Points/ condenser--If the spark is weak, maybe the points are old, coroded, burned. You MUST have a good condenser, and they can go bad. There is no easy way to test condensers, regardless of internet "wisdom." You need a special high-voltage leakage tester,--something you cannot duplicate

If you have left the key "on" while you are trying to start, you may have burned/ damaged the points

Condition of cap, wires, etch--check for dirt, debri, carbon, how old are the wires? Check the wires for individual continuity. Resistor/ radio wires "rule of thumb" is "no more" than 1000 ohms per foot of wire, good ones almost always less

3...Fuel........Are you using fresh fuel? Make sure. Regardless of condition of the tank/ pump/ carb, about a teaspoon of good fresh fuel down the carb through should result in the engine firing for a short time.

Hey 67, I didnt check compression. Motor is pretty good shape with only 92k miles on it. I dont know a ton about the motor or vehicle b/c it was inherited from my uncle after he passed. The motor did fire right up when I got the car home and never had an issue with it firing off until now. Everything stopped working when the coil went bad. When I sprayed starting fluid in it I just did a quick shot and didnt spray a lot in there.

On the spark, I tested with an inline test light where you plug one end into the plug wire or coil and the other side has a boot like a spark plug wire, its kind of like a test light. When I tested the first (new) coil there was no spark at all. The one I just installed I tested with a multi meter and also put the inline test light on it after installed.
The points could be crap, as far as I know they have not been replaced recently. Maybe they got corroded or just burnt out. I'll have to check that. The condenser could be another issue, but I've not checked that either, sounds like something I cant check and should just replace.

Wires seem to be good and don't have any debris or anything like that.

I dont have any fresh fuel, I have some in the tank but its a couple of months old and dont have fuel up to the carb yet, replaced the fuel pump already because I was there and figured why not. As of right now I'm just trying to get it attempt to fire with starting fluid.

Thanks for the reply and giving me some things to add to the list.

 

[moparkrazed]

4..Battery / starter........Clip your multimeter to the starter stud and block. When cranking, you should see AT LEAST 10.5V the more the better. If not, check connections/ cables / battery condition and charge

If you have more than 10.5 at the starter, move the meter to the coil + terminal, take TWO measurements. With key on in "run" position, if you see "full battery" either the points are open or bad. "Bump" engine until voltage drops, the points are now closed. You want to see maybe 8-10V or so at the coil. This shows the points are closed, drawing current

Now crank engine and read meter. USE THE KEY to do this. Now the bypass circuit is active, and the coil voltage when cranking should be "same as battery." IN other words if you got 11V at the starter stud when cranking, then you should see about that at the coil+ when cranking

Thanks, I'll give this a shot as well. I'm thinking the battery has something to do with it but thinking I may have some issues with the points as well.

 

[valiantwagonguy]

Probably a bad condenser

 

[moparkrazed]

Probably a bad condenser

I was surprised to see how inexpensive condenser and points are. I tried to do the test that 67 was talking about and had 12. something volts to the starter and 11.6 at the coil while key was on run and when I started bumping over the motor it went down to 6v and then the battery died again. I'll prob. replace points, condenser, and battery for now. It has a new ballast on it already and now a working coil. Fingers crossed but always happy to hear feed back and learn more. Thanks for the post valiantwagonguy.

 

[67Dart273]

Testing for spark quality/ "jump" is fairly important. A bad coil/ plug wire/ low voltage/ poor points/ poor condenser all add up LISLE tools makes an adjustable tester that is only about 10 bucks. Again, expect (with a good battery) to see at least 3/8 good blue snappy spark, using a wire from coil to the LIsle--to ground.

Also if you are cranking it by jumpering the starter relay, THIS DOES NOT bypass the ballast resistor for starting, and not using the key to crank it will result in greatly reduced spark power and voltage, because you are "still" going through the ballast while jumpering the start relay

Consider this:
When running and with battery charged and alternator running, system voltage is 14 or so, coil voltage will be about 10- 11V plus/ minus
When starting with the key, with a good battery, battery will pull down to about 11v, and the coil will see.....about 10-11V
Adversely, when starting by jumpering the start relay, and with the battery down say, 11V, and still going through the ballast, the coil will only see maybe 4-5V.

 

[moparkrazed]

Testing for spark quality/ "jump" is fairly important. A bad coil/ plug wire/ low voltage/ poor points/ poor condenser all add up LISLE tools makes an adjustable tester that is only about 10 bucks. Again, expect (with a good battery) to see at least 3/8 good blue snappy spark, using a wire from coil to the LIsle--to ground.

Also if you are cranking it by jumpering the starter relay, THIS DOES NOT bypass the ballast resistor for starting, and not using the key to crank it will result in greatly reduced spark power and voltage, because you are "still" going through the ballast while jumpering the start relay

Consider this:
When running and with battery charged and alternator running, system voltage is 14 or so, coil voltage will be about 10- 11V plus/ minus
When starting with the key, with a good battery, battery will pull down to about 11v, and the coil will see.....about 10-11V
Adversely, when starting by jumpering the start relay, and with the battery down say, 11V, and still going through the ballast, the coil will only see maybe 4-5V.

That makes sense. I just got back inside from running that test you mentioned earlier. I had 12.5 volts on the batt. and same at the starter stud. I went over and had 11.5 something at the + side of the coil with the key on run. With key still on run I bumped the motor over and got it down to 6.5 something but then the battery died again. I'll see if I can find that tool, sounds like it would be something good to own.

 

[413]

These threads always go way to far right from the beginning.

You have spark, so make sure the plugs are clean and dry. It should react to the starting fluid, it’s very volatile. If it does start great. If it still won’t start then go deeper. Points last a long time, and old points and condenser are better than new ones. Don’t replace them for fun, LOOK at them first.

2 questions that are somewhat important here. What is the temperature where you are? Does the choke close?

 

[moparkrazed]

These threads always go way to far right from the beginning.

You have spark, so make sure the plugs are clean and dry. It should react to the starting fluid, it’s very volatile. If it does start great. If it still won’t start then go deeper. Points last a long time, and old points and condenser are better than new ones. Don’t replace them for fun, LOOK at them first.

2 questions that are somewhat important here. What is the temperature where you are? Does the choke close?

haha things do sometimes go off the rails, but I dont mind I get to learn more cause and effects. I'm not strong with mechanical work but can sometimes get by, I'm much better with body and paint haha.
I'm in Columbia, SC so its not freezing (cold for us though haha). I was probably around 50 degrees when I ran the tests earlier but the past few nights have been getting down in the high 20s. I have not looked to see if the choke is closing or not. I think it has the choke that is tied to the exhaust manifold, so it probably works off the heat coming out of that. I can probably push the choke close and have some else try to fire the car off to see if that helps. When I spray the starter fluid in the carb it does not even try to start but I'm just doing a quick shot down the carb.

 

[413]

You have 170 cubic inches so it doesn’t take much starting fluid, try 2 seconds of spraying with the choke and throttle open so it gets inside the intake manifold. Then close the throttle right after spraying and try to start it.

It will die because the carb is empty. If you can get a squeeze bottle with fresh gas in it fill the float bowl first so it will keep running, When you get it to stay running keep it running and get it warmed up.

take a photo of the top of the carb and I can tell you how to full the bowl. Don’t just dump a bunch don the carb, it could flood it.

 

[moparkrazed]

You have 170 cubic inches so it doesn’t take much starting fluid, try 2 seconds of spraying with the choke and throttle open so it gets inside the intake manifold. Then close the throttle right after spraying and try to start it.

It will die because the carb is empty. If you can get a squeeze bottle with fresh gas in it fill the float bowl first so it will keep running, When you get it to stay running keep it running and get it warmed up.

take a photo of the top of the carb and I can tell you how to full the bowl. Don’t just dump a bunch don the carb, it could flood it.

Thanks man. I'll try to grab a quick pic tomorrow morning and post it on here. When I sprayed the starting fluid I probably sprayed for maybe 1/4- 1/2 a second. I also was not holding the throttle open either. I'll try to grab that pic tomorrow morning and get it posted.

 

[Bewy]

Check the points GAP. It closes up [ no spark & intermittent ] over time because the rubbing block wears down.

 

[moparkrazed]

You have 170 cubic inches so it doesn’t take much starting fluid, try 2 seconds of spraying with the choke and throttle open so it gets inside the intake manifold. Then close the throttle right after spraying and try to start it.































































































































It will die because the carb is empty. If you can get a squeeze bottle with fresh gas in it fill the float bowl first so it will keep running, When you get it to stay running keep it running and get it warmed up.












































































































take a photo of the top of the carb and I can tell you how to full the bowl. Don’t st dump a bunch don the carb, it could flood it.

 

[moparkrazed]

Up loaded pics of carb and points. Condenser looks pretty good I think but maybe the points are burned? Not sure of that's what burnt points look like. I did find a few things wrong this morning. When I took the breather off the choke rod wasn't hooked up to the carb so it was stuck wide open. When I looked at the points they seemed to be an ashy looking color where it contacts. I apoin the motor until the point wasn't on the point of the cam anymore and was on the flat part of the shaft. I got my feeler gage and .017 opened the points, so maybe they are out of adjustment too? Or I didn't spin the motor enough?

 

[67Dart273]

The way to test points is electrically. EITHER check that you have a good spark as outlined earlier, or ............if not..........

When they are closed they should be a dead short to ground. So with the cap off, bump engine until points are closed on the "flat" of the points cam. Now turn key to on/ "run" and measure voltage from coil NEG to ground. You should see no more than maybe a volt at worst. BEST is if you have a dwell meter, which often have a "points resistance" scale. Then bump engine so the points are at top of cam and either estimate by eye or by feeler gauge what the gap might be

I DO NOT like to try to clean points if not needed. You can sometimes do more harm than good with various sand paper / etc get grit and so on in there and make it "worse"

 

[moparkrazed]

The way to test points is electrically. EITHER check that you have a good spark as outlined earlier, or ............if not..........

When they are closed they should be a dead short to ground. So with the cap off, bump engine until points are closed on the "flat" of the points cam. Now turn key to on/ "run" and measure voltage from coil NEG to ground. You should see no more than maybe a volt at worst. BEST is if you have a dwell meter, which often have a "points resistance" scale. Then bump engine so the points are at top of cam and either estimate by eye or by feeler gauge what the gap might be

I DO NOT like to try to clean points if not needed. You can sometimes do more harm than good with various sand paper / etc get grit and so on in there and make it "worse"

Hey 67 Dart. I can do that test and see what comes back at lunch time today. I do have a dwell meter my neighbor gave me a few months back so I can hook that up and let you know what it says. It looks like the points may be too tight, I tried to put a feeler gage in this morning but when I put the .017 gauge in there it wouldnt fit and opened the points. I'm thinking I may need to adjust those. When/if I need to adjust do I adjust them when closed or open? I would assume open but just want to make sure.
I would not clean the points. I dont trust myself enough to do that. I'm learning as I go with points so I'd rather replace if needed.
Thanks again for the help.

 

[moparkrazed]

The way to test points is electrically. EITHER check that you have a good spark as outlined earlier, or ............if not..........

When they are closed they should be a dead short to ground. So with the cap off, bump engine until points are closed on the "flat" of the points cam. Now turn key to on/ "run" and measure voltage from coil NEG to ground. You should see no more than maybe a volt at worst. BEST is if you have a dwell meter, which often have a "points resistance" scale. Then bump engine so the points are at top of cam and either estimate by eye or by feeler gauge what the gap might be

I DO NOT like to try to clean points if not needed. You can sometimes do more harm than good with various sand paper / etc get grit and so on in there and make it "worse"

UPDATE: I took at volts at - coil with key on run. Battery isnt strong but had 0 V at - coil. Hooked up the dwell meter and while cranking it jumped between 30 and 25.

 

[67Dart273]

Maybe I got off track here..........do you have good spark or no? All this may be a waste of time "if you do." The "path" through the coil is this: Power to ballast resistor from the key, should be "battery" (same as battery)---through ballast with points closed about 6-10 either other end of ballast or coil POS and coil NEG should be very low. If you are showing such at POS coil and nearly zero at NEG then the whole thing is drawing current through the points as it should.

If the points are making / breaking OK and drawing current, and you have changed the coil I recall, the condenser is all that is left.

You can simplify it further by eliminating ballast/ wiring---jumper power to coil + and with points "bumped" open short the coil NEG to ground either at coil or at points terminal in distributor. Should make a "snap" spark out of coil each time. If not, its either coil or condenser

 

[413]

Fill the bowl through this tube. Use fresh gas. 1 oz Of gas. Look at the turkey blaster, up to the tape line.

If you have spark at the coil wire don’t mess around too much with the points. It ran before.

Try some starting fluid and see if it wants to run. If not make sure you have spark and the plugs are dry.

don’t pump the gas pedal while cranking the engine, it will only make it harder to start. We have starting fluid for the fuel right now.

condensers don’t generally look bad on the outside.

 

[moparkrazed]

Maybe I got off track here..........do you have good spark or no? All this may be a waste of time "if you do." The "path" through the coil is this: Power to ballast resistor from the key, should be "battery" (same as battery)---through ballast with points closed about 6-10 either other end of ballast or coil POS and coil NEG should be very low. If you are showing such at POS coil and nearly zero at NEG then the whole thing is drawing current through the points as it should.

If the points are making / breaking OK and drawing current, and you have changed the coil I recall, the condenser is all that is left.

You can simplify it further by eliminating ballast/ wiring---jumper power to coil + and with points "bumped" open short the coil NEG to ground either at coil or at points terminal in distributor. Should make a "snap" spark out of coil each time. If not, its either coil or condenser

Sorry for the confusion. I have a battery but it isnt the best. I really need to replace it. I put a charge on the battery and it registers 12V but after a few cranks it dies again. So I dont think it has a great spark. I can re run the tests when I get a new battery and see what happens.

 

[moparkrazed]

Fill the bowl through this tube. Use fresh gas. 2 oz

If you have spark at the coil wire don’t mess around too much with the points. It ran before.

Try some starting fluid and see if it wants to run. If not make sure you have spark and the plugs are dry.

don’t pump the gas pedal while cranking the engine, it will only make it harder to start. We have starting fluid for the fuel right now.

condensers don’t generally look bad on the outside.

View attachment 1715862238

Thanks, I'll fill the bowl through that tube. It was running great up until now. I'll pull the plugs as well to make sure they are dry, it does have spark coming out of the distributor going to the plugs but I've only tested that with an inline light tester and ran the above tests that 67 recommended. I need a new battery which may help a lot as well.

 

[413]

Yes a hot battery is a must, can you borrow one. From another car? I don’t know what you have there.

you can try to start With starting fluid before you clean the plugs, see if it kicks or not. Then if it goes with a hot battery you don’t have to do plugs. If it starts keep it running and get it warm.