CONTROL FREAKS IFS A-Body 440 setup

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CichliDart said:
Cleaner looking vs tried and true parts with millions of miles on them?

I think the desired outcome was handling and not how it looks.

My two cents.

Mike
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Millions of miles then definitely time for a change just a matter of what you prefer I for one wanted something different if I wanted to be the same I'd own a Chevy just a matter of personnel preference either way is good
 
Before getting my Dart I hardly knew what torsion bar suspension was. I have battled the whole idea of the coil over swap. In the end I have come to appreciate that torsion suspension in itself is fairly unique "different" relative to most cars. I bought a Mopar because I wanted something different and I feel like the stock style suspension is a part of that. If your looking at serious auto cross there might be some real consideration, but I have read so much info that supports the idea of having a great performing torsion setup. I think 72bluNblu's suggestion illustrates the alternative possibilities.
 
72bluNblu said:
You don't need a coilover suspension conversion. If you're willing to pay $3,500 for one of those, do this and have your ENTIRE car done.

1.06 (or bigger) Firm Feel torsion bars - $355
Tubular UCA’s (PST, FFI, etc) $350
Adjustable strut rods (PST SR 14385) $279
Solid tie rod sleeves (PST SAS 440S) $49
LCA boxing plate (PST LCAPLTMOP621) $15
Greasable LCA pins (FFI w bushings) $135

Hellwig Sway bars
Tubular front 1 1/8” #55904 $175
Solid rear 3/4” #6907 $237

Afco leaf springs
20231M (121 lb) $320
(or 20231's, 142lb, if you prefer, $340)

1” bushings for shackles
Energy suspension 2-2117G $9

Hotchkis RCD shocks
(RCD-70-56663) $400

Grand total so far is... $2,324

Go ahead and add /6 to 440 mounts $177
A Bergman Auto Delphi power steering box $675

And you're at $3176

Since the brakes were included in that package, add Dr. Diff's 10.95" kit for $445

and now you're at $3,621.

But you've done the suspension on your ENTIRE car. If you really need to compare apples to apples drop the rear springs, rear sway bar, and rear shocks since the coilover kits don't address the rear of the car at all. That puts the total back at $2,864.

I list everything above to compare to the TVS kit, and I think that the above set up would be in the same performance ballpark. The Hotchkis set up has some nice parts, but not everything is needed and some stuff that should be included isn't. Also, I include some of the parts above because with the exception of the lower control arms, all the parts will be NEW, so no concerns about damaged or worn out parts. You could do it cheaper without the new pivots, by rebuilding the stock UCA's etc. But that's my .02. I think a car set up with all the above parts, a good set of tires and a competitive alignment would be in exactly the same ballpark as any of the coilover conversion cars as far as handling is concerned. I know some folks disagree with that, but realistically the average driver or even the occasional weekend track warrior is unlikely to notice much difference at all. You'd really have to put a stop watch to it, and at that point I think tire choice and shock valving would probably play just as big a role.
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I'd add sub frame connectors to the list too. Depending on the engine, possible torque boxes too.
 
the CF system is a copy of an old alter-k only in round tube.the alter-k has had many improvements over the years. the other thing is who knows what quality of parts like ball joints and rod ends were used with the CF unit. i know for a fact that RMS uses the highest quality stuff he can. RMS over the years has found better quality components and upgraded along the way..

i can tell you from experience (alter-k).. if you have a rack/coil system that's designed correctly it is incredible to drive. will feel like a modern car and as an added bonus you gain a ton of room under there to work on the car..
 
Your quote: "I just want an all around good set up for car. Maybe road course/pro touring and strip every once in a awhile. Mainly just driving around, and then have it be sturdy enough to play around with."

I built and lived with a 440/727 72' Demon for nearly a decade, so I'm pretty familiar with the in's and out's of a BB A body.
No matter what suspension you run you should incorporate torque boxes and sub frame connectors. For your purposes the cheaper and entirely acceptable route is the package suggested by 72bluNblue. This will get you a complete (front & rear) sorted, time proven, factory engineered chassis with great handling. If you stay with factory UCAs use the Moog K7103 misalignment bushings for better alignment settings and I'd suggest fully welding the K frame with particular attention given to reinforcements around the LCA pin mounts. I have no issues with the HDK or Alterkation which are both proven coil over front suspensions. Forget the CF, it is unproven, so let someone with deeper pockets figure out if it's any good or not. But... after the outlay for these kits you still have to address the rear. Unless you go with the Street Lynx you will have a mix of coil front, leaf rear. With your intended use I don't think you will gain handling performance over a well sorted factory design. What you do gain with the coil over systems is header and steering component clearance and a bit of weight loss. You didn't state if power steering or brakes are in the mix. With a K forget factory power steering, ain't happening with headers. A Borgsen box might work but I haven't seen one done. Booster/valve cover interference is another issue. Even though I had CCCP headers my driver's side inner tie rod still occupied the same space as one of my header tubes and required "clearancing". Spark plug access to the 2 center plugs on the passenger side head is from underneath the car or through access holes drilled through the inner fender. You'll need a big radiator and fan for added cooling capacity. All in all having BB torque in a A body is cool and will get "oohs and awws" at the car show but I'd rather have a small block for the lighter front end weight, better handling, ease of build factor. Your dime, your decision.
 
dodge71demon said:
All very good but you still have the k frame - steering box - torsion bars - steering linkage etc taking up a lot of space the tubular set up is a lot cleaner looking
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$3,500 is a lot of money to look a little cleaner. And since I wouldn't install a CF system at all, let alone a used one, you're really talking about $4,240 for an RMS system. That's a ton of money.

Don't get me wrong, the RMS Alterkation is a great set up. But I personally don't think it gets you anything from a handling standpoint that you can't accomplish with torsion bars. Coilovers are just springs and shocks. Torsion bars and shocks are just springs and shocks too, and all suspension designs have their advantages and disadvantages. Yes, coilovers are easier to tune with the aftermarket support they have, and leave you more space under the car. But using most of the parts I listed above, plus a few extras like torque boxes, subframe connectors, J bars, and a reinforced and braced K frame, my Duster handles just like a modern car too, IMHO. Maybe the 16:1 Flaming river manual steering box in my car isn't as plush, but that's fine by me.

Another member here, tomswheels, has used his torsion bar suspended barracuda to outdrive art morrison chassied cars at the GoodGuys autocross. By his description, it's even more simply set up than what I described. It doesn't take a full suspension conversion to have well handling car. And for a car that will mostly see street use, and only an occasional track day or autocross, your money is better spent on other parts.

Here's a quote from him, and the link to the source http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=227771&page=2

tomswheels said:
Hey I know I'm a little late adding my 2 cents, but it really is all about what you want to spend. I'm sure a car with coil overs and a rack and pinion will be EASIER to drive quickly on an autocross, and if you have the money to do it, great. I don't have the money so my 69 Barracuda convertible runs torsion bars, leaf springs, $14.95 Gabriel gas shocks, a firm feel box, front sway bar, and subframe connectors. That's it. Less than $1000 in suspension/steering. At the last Goodguys Autocross in Del Mar it beat the $150k Camaro that just got invited to Optima (Alcala) and Steven Rupps "Bad Penny" Camaro. Just goes to show you torsion bars can still surprise the big-bucks guys....


SM Greg Thurmond 64 Chevy Corvette 54.086 PRO
SM Gregg Blunder 69 Chevy Camaro 54.385
SM Kyle Newman 55 Chevy Bel Air 54.486
SM Casey Cronin 68 Chevy Camaro 54.841
SM Robert Pierik 71 Chevy Camaro 55.345
SM Dan Weishaar 70 Dodge Challenger 55.37
SM Rodney Prouty 68 Chevy Camaro 55.414
SM Tom Kamman 69 Plymouth Barracuda 55.452
SM Matt Alcala 69 Chevy Camaro 55.61
SM Brianne Maier 66 Ford Mustang 55.65
SM Bob Gawlif 71 Chevy Camaro 56.134
SM Steve Rupp 68 Chevy Camaro 56.233
SM Jane Thurmond 64 Chevy Corvette 56.4
SM Tdd Vierra 56 Chevy Wagon 56.521
SM Chris Meyer 70 Chevy Camaro 57.574
SM Robbie Conklin 68 Chevy Chevelle 58
SM Gerald Lum 71 Chevy Camaro 58.091
SM **** Eytchison 65 Chevy Chevelle 58.35
SM Chad Humphreys 69 Ford Mach 1 58.516
SM Kyle Newman 57 Chevy 58.715
SM Dennis McNeil 71 Chevy Chevelle 59.118
SM Richard Trujillo 69 Ford Mustang 59.249
SM Aaron Raymond 69 Chevy Camaro 59.426
SM Mike Fitzsimmons 67 Pontiac Firebird 59.667
SM Nick Herrington 67 Ford Mustang 59.932
SM Mike Young 65 Ford Mustang 60.028
SM Evan Osborn 67 Chevy Camaro 60.281
SM Robb McIntosh 69 Chevy Camaro 60.342
SM Ralph Hollis 70 Pontiac GTO 61.093
SM Christian Dilauro 69 Chevy Camaro 61.134
SM Chris Humphreys 71 Chevy Camaro 61.203
SM John Barkley 72 Chevy Camaro 61.242
SM Tim Davis 66 Ford Mustang 61.524
SM Chuck Rust 65 Chevy Covair 61.783
SM George Reiss 64 Pontiac Lemans 64.047
SM Mike Colon 69 Chevy Camaro 64.13
SM Jerry McNulty 65 Ford Mustang 67.04
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I agree. My first time at a road course showed me that my factory suspension was the least of my handicaps. My 1st and foremost was nitto 555's on the front and then it was keeping oil in the engine. My skill and tire grip has a LONG way to go before I have to take another look at my suspension.
 
Thank you all for your input. I will look at different aspects of suspensions. Saw this CF for sale and just couldn't don't too much about it so I thought I'd ask in here. Most of y'all have been doing this a long time so I look for y'all's opinions to help and I appreciate it
 
COLD HARD FACTS ???

#1...Torsion bars make a great suspension.....but they are in the way of EVERTHING!

#2...The factory steering is sloppy and no matter how much money you throw at it (it
can be much improved) a simple front steer rack is worlds better.

#3...A 500" big block with popular aluminum heads, intake, water pump & housing and
lightweight steel tube headers is, if anything, lighter than a stock small block with
factory cast iron exhaust manifolds.

#4...A coil over conversion is probably a luxury for anyone with a small block. Yes, they
are light and offer a lot of space as well as proven sharp steering but aren't entirely
necessary. There are people that can afford them and that is fine. Nobody is twisting
your arm to buy one so stop with the whining.

#5...On the other hand, someone installing a Gen II Hemi with A/C and the desire for
full functionality with a flat stock hood will no doubt be talking to Mr. HemiDenny for
a complete HDK setup that will probably be in the $3500.00 range complete.

#6...For others with B-motors or Gen III Hemis, there are conversion mounts and headers
that allow the swap to be completed but for those that have a $$$ choice, most will
end up with an RMS or HDK coil over and rack & pinion conversion package and enjoy
the additional benefits that come with them.
 
"#3...A 500" big block with popular aluminum heads, intake, water pump & housing and
lightweight steel tube headers is, if anything, lighter than a stock small block with
factory cast iron exhaust manifolds."

Let's compare apples to apples: what does a small block weigh with the same equipment? Lighter weight = better power to weight ratios and even better handling with each lbs removed from the nose of the car.

"Nobody is twisting
your arm to buy one so stop with the whining."

WTF????????
 
For drag racing it's one thing. I still don't understand why someone would buy something that has a poor turning radius, limited wheel choices due to the wider track width and less suspension travel than stock. All the parts are there now to do the factory style suspension correctly.
 
rapom65 said:
Let's compare apples to apples: what does a small block weigh with the same equipment?
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How long did it take you to figure that out Einstein?

I was merely pointing out that a big block A-body doesn't necessarily have to be any more front
heavy than a stock small block car. In other words, detrimentaly heavy.

It seems like every discussion on this site has the small motor guys valiantly defending the A-engine
even though nobody ever says anything derogatory about them.

That's one hell of an inferiority complex. This thread isn't even about engines!
 
Have a 72 swinger stock suspension with a 440/727 and have the factory power steering. Used the schumacker motor mounts, tri y headers and torsion strap. Everything fits even under the car with a dual 2 1/2" exhaust. Don't have to spend a ton on coil over suspension for a street driver (occasional track toy) $.02
 
Guys....we are all into cars. Big Block, Small Block, whatever...not here disused ing which is better. This thread was here to discuss if the CF was a good choice or not. I will have a 440/727 combo in my Valiant, that's what I want. I started thread for info and I have gotten some great advice which I'll follow and I thank all of y'all for that info!!!!! Again, we are car guys. Be car guys and admire the CARS for what the individual owners want with their car. I like this site for the knowledge. THANK YALL FOR THAT KNOWLEDGE!!! I'm a novice thy loves cars and I need the advice I ask for! Y'all have given me that advice!!! I appreciate.
 
Wow, must have touched a nerve. I think the Dr. needs to write himself a prescription for a Quaalude. Relax dude, I wasn't trying to diss BBs at all, just trying to point out that there are issues you have to solve, then live with, when shoehorning one of these into an engine bay not designed for it. I've owned both, I like both. Each has benefits over the other in certain applications; Drag racing - BB has it all over a SB. Handling - SB has the advantage out of the gate with lighter weight. You can make a BB lighter, and your wallet will be too. For every $ put into a BB to lighten it up you can do the same to a SB and end up with an even lighter motor.

IMO best of both worlds: take the money you would put into a BB and stroke the SB to 408/416 = BB power w/ SB weight.

Lets get off the motor debate and get back to the OP original question.
 
Agreed!! Just a car guy looking for input! I have the motor already ( just needs build up ) so small block is out of the question. Hence my original question. Will probably do what was suggested before for all the other suspension parts plus discs all around. Since we are on suspension, what's the better size torsion bar setup? PST has 1.03 and I've seen 1.08-1.2 I think. What the most I can do? If anyone has thoughts!! Thanks again!
 
rapom65 said:
I've owned both, I like both. Each has benefits over the other in certain applications; Drag racing - BB has it all over a SB. Handling - SB has the advantage out of the gate with lighter weight. You can make a BB lighter, and your wallet will be too. For every $ put into a BB to lighten it up you can do the same to a SB and end up with an even lighter motor.

IMO best of both worlds: take the money you would put into a BB and stroke the SB to 408/416 = BB power w/ SB weight.

Lets get off the motor debate and get back to the OP original question.
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And I agree with you.....100%.

I didn't say anything about one motor being better than another....Heck, I like them all.

I made one comment about how the weight of a big block need not be an issue of concern
and you somehow think I attacked small blocks.

I have no idea where this is coming from.

Actually, in reflection, those darn 408-440 small blocks they've been building lately make far
too much power for their miniscule size. This is very troubling and probably very dangerous!
 
""GASPS"". A car guy saying there's TOO MUCH POWER!! Lol. :)
I understand power vs size so don't get me wrong!!! Just hard to hear!!
 
Everything is cool Dr. When I read #3 of your post my thought was "your comparing an aluminized BB to a stock SB" not that the BB would be in the weight zone of a stock SB. One of the limitations of interpreting internet prose.

I agree that the SB stroke/bore combos are stretching the "hairy" edge. My friend has pushed his NA 408 race motor to its limits and is experiencing the pain of trying to keep it together. Major money dumped into very expensive parts every year. His engine builder, Brian at IMM, told him he really needs to go BB if he wants more power.

To the OP's question: "Since we are on suspension, what's the better size torsion bar setup? PST has 1.03 and I've seen 1.08-1.2 I think. What the most I can do?"

Depends on what your doing with the BB and how serious you want the handling. If the BB is stock you can go with a larger TB to compensate for a little more weight on the nose. If you lighten it up with aluminum components then standard A body upgrades should work. PST has 1.03, Firm Feel lists 1.06, 1.12, and 1.18 for the A body IRC. The actual physical limit of the TB pockets is 1.24. Racers used to weld in bigger C body pockets into the LCAs and trans cross member. I don't know of anyone offering 1.08 or 1.20. Firm Feel is your best bet for custom TB. In all seriousness the setup 72bluNblu posted is great package and very effective in performance gained for $ spent. I'm planing to go with 1.12 in my SB Duster but I'm leaning a little more for track performance over road compliance. Be sure your shock valving matches the TB you choose. Price wise Bilstein RCDs are a good choice for 1.0 - 1.03, Hotchkis Fox for 1.06 - 1.12, above that your going to need to really step up in price and quality.
 
Thank you for the info rap...as I said I'm just getting into this wisdom game here and learning what I need to from you guy, and I appreciate it. I've got a 68 Charger as well that'll have a 440 and both these setups may be very similar. 72bluNblus rec seems to be what I'll go with! Thanks for y'all's input.
 
Both my cars 69 Valiant with 440/727 and 68 Charger 440/727 will be drivers, no trailer queens. I want to drive them! Occasional auto cross, just don't want them to break. Lol. Want good suspension that can hold stock weight if that's the way I want to go. Again, thanks for all y'all's input!!!
 
72's set up is definitely performance oriented and should work equally well in both of your BB cars. The B body torsion bars are longer and have a bit more "twist-ability" to them due to the added length so are about a step softer, ie. to get equivalent rates, a 1.06 in an A body would roughly equate to a 1.12 in a B body. On these old cars think "package" when ever your considering any upgrade. Everything needs to work in harmony. Have a goal and select your components to meet the goal. Note that every aspect of the suspension is addressed in 72's "package", (except sub frames and torque boxes which I'm sure he ommited by mistake). It will all work together to get you the results your after. FABO and FBBO are great resources for advice and info.
 
That's why I'm hear...knowledge. I need the knowledge to set up a good car, in my case 2 good cars!!! My biggest thing is he added the Bergman power steering box. Wasn't sure power steering would work with BB A-body due to headers. If anyone has a pic, namely 72, please post. I'm a very visual person and can get a lot accomplished through pictures...plus I'm a Marine soooooooo....nuff said!!! Lol
 
wot69valiant said:
Agreed!! Just a car guy looking for input! I have the motor already ( just needs build up ) so small block is out of the question. Hence my original question. Will probably do what was suggested before for all the other suspension parts plus discs all around. Since we are on suspension, what's the better size torsion bar setup? PST has 1.03 and I've seen 1.08-1.2 I think. What the most I can do? If anyone has thoughts!! Thanks again!
Click to expand...

I have 1.12" Firm Feel torsion bars in my Challenger and in my Duster. Obviously the Duster has a higher wheel rate because the bars are shorter (300 lb/in vs 270 in the Challenger). Both cars are SB. I think the Duster rides great with them, it's definitely on the stiff side but it does quite well with the Hotchkis Fox shocks I have on it. Worked well with Bilstein RCD's as well. My Duster is a non-AC, manual steering, manual brakes car, although it is a '74 so its not the lightest version out there. And I've added some chassis stiffening as well, which is great for flex but it does add weight too.

I don't think you could go wrong with the 1.12" bars with a 440. I think that for an occasional track car that would pretty close to where you want to be. More than enough to handle well on the track, but still tolerable around town. Obviously you could go bigger, Firm Feel has a 1.18" bar also (370 lb/in), but I think the 1.12's would work just fine. The 1.18's are a pretty big step up in rate, and my car rides pretty stiff. I also run iron heads, so if you're looking at an aluminum headed 440 you won't have as much added weight vs the 340 I've got.

rapom65 said:
Note that every aspect of the suspension is addressed in 72's "package", (except sub frames and torque boxes which I'm sure he ommited by mistake). It will all work together to get you the results your after.
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I didn't really leave them out by mistake, I left them out of that "package" because I just use it as a comparison against the Hotchkis TVS and RMS suspension packages. Since neither of them include any chassis stiffening, neither did I. I actually just copy and paste that section now, I have a copy on my computer that I made up with all the part #'s. It comes up enough its just easier than looking for the other times I've posted it up. And I just list it as an alternative solution, I don't sell anything. :D

That said, I think you need subframe connectors on any old Mopar you intend to drive on the street. And if you're building a car for handling, you need more than just that. My Duster has subframe connectors, torque boxes, a fully seam welded and reinforced K member, tubular radiator support, and "J" bars that tie the firewall, upper shock mounts, and front frame rails together. It's also hard to list prices and part numbers for that stuff, since I do all my own welding and fabricated some of the parts.

wot69valiant said:
That's why I'm hear...knowledge. I need the knowledge to set up a good car, in my case 2 good cars!!! My biggest thing is he added the Bergman power steering box. Wasn't sure power steering would work with BB A-body due to headers. If anyone has a pic, namely 72, please post. I'm a very visual person and can get a lot accomplished through pictures...plus I'm a Marine soooooooo....nuff said!!! Lol
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I don't have any pictures for you unfortunately, as all of my cars are SB. I also run a manual steering box in my Duster, Flaming river's 16:1 unit. I'd talk to Peter to find out what the options are for the Delphi box, since he's the guy at http://bergmanautocraft.com/. He's also GmachineDartGT, already posted above.
 
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