DOES THE HDK SUSPENSION K-MEMBER HANDLE BETTER THAN A T-BAR SUSPENSION?

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RMS coilover towers WILL bend if you go in the ditch. That’s what it took for me to bend mine on my E-body. Bill Reilly told me to send it back and he’ll take care of it.

Sway bar mounts on the lca’s is solid on the RMS, HD looks to have the exact same mounting idea. There is no problem with the sway bar.

Strut rods on double a-arm suspension? Don't be silly.
Everything is allowed to bend to protect everything else when driving in a ditch, IMO.
However with my RMS IFS reply here #121, it was very simple to box the shock/spring towers adding IMO
a decent amount of stiffness.
The chassis swaybar mounts are quite different between these two designs IMO
I believe the strut bar comment here was not to actually add one, but more of an example of the greater robustness it might add as an example of a wider "pinch" the author noticed in the LCA pivot points. it was not my comment, just to be clear, but the comment has merit, and the Morrison IFS I shared in reply #164 shows wider LCA pivot points and some more favorable kinematics it seems.
 
It’s funny how defensive you are getting.
My next comment will be from the street racing days - Where’s your car? Let’s line them up. I’ll be at Moparty in September. I don’t care if you’re on a Speed tech chassis with 335/ square with a redeye engine. Let’s see who’s faster around the cones. Lol.

FYI, openly insulting peoples’ intelligence is a reflection of yourself.
That guy annoys people on every forum he is on.
He was a rabble rouser at Moparts, he pissed off people at FBBO and now he is doing it here.
With him, everyone else is an idiot and only HE knows the right way of doing things.
Instead of letting sleeping dogs lie, he is compelled to educate the unwashed masses by bestowing us all with his great wisdom.
He is the Mrs Kravitz of the neighborhood, the Karen of the forum and the turd in the punch bowl.
He might have had a chance to blend in and be an asset to the forums but he immediately rubs many people the wrong way.
He is knowledgeable but very condescending. If he would just STOP being argumentative about everything, he could actually help others and even learn something in the process.
The "man" repeats this pattern on every forum he joins. Read his posts or IGNORE him. It is your choice.
 
View attachment 1716197527
This is the best Mopar aftermarket IFS rendition I have seen with my own eyes. It has a few details I would like to see addressed, and most are minor, and correctable given the will.
It checks a lot of boxes.
Morrison Chassis in Tacoma Washington
The Morrison setup looks cool. I like the Vette uprights. Lots of brake choices and the geometry should be good with those. I also like the modern approach to wheel bearings. Stick all the wear stuff in a disposable package.
My only issue with the Morrison setup is that I don't see a market for it. It is super expensive and I'm not sure what problem it solves. The chassis shop I work with can install a custom built front stub with a double A arm suspension for less money than the Morrison kit. A custom built front stub frame will be stiffer, have more header clearance, and probably weigh less since it isn't a frame bolted to a frame.
I guess it all revolves around people wanting a bolt in kit. But the Morrison kit seems like it has advanced the concept of bolt in past the point of where it makes sense. If you're going to go to all that work why not just cut the existing front stub off and build a new one that does what you want?
 
That guy annoys people on every forum he is on.
He was a rabble rouser at Moparts, he pissed off people at FBBO and now he is doing it here.
With him, everyone else is an idiot and only HE knows the right way of doing things.
Instead of letting sleeping dogs lie, he is compelled to educate the unwashed masses by bestowing us all with his great wisdom.
He is the Mrs Kravitz of the neighborhood, the Karen of the forum and the turd in the punch bowl.
He might have had a chance to blend in and be an asset to the forums but he immediately rubs many people the wrong way.
He is knowledgeable but very condescending. If he would just STOP being argumentative about everything, he could actually help others and even learn something in the process.
The "man" repeats this pattern on every forum he joins. Read his posts or IGNORE him. It is your choice.
Hey KD, nice to see you in this neighborhood. Haven't seen you in a bit.
 
Hey, THE guru is here!
Everyone that I know and chat with respects Andy. I have your B body book and have appreciated the knowledge that you shared there and online. I miss reading your contributions to the Mopar magazines, especially about brakes and suspensions.
One nugget that you wrote that sticks with me was about brake bias...that there should be a 2 to 1 bias, front to rear. You explained that well in Your B body book. It was written awhile back but still has info that is relevant today. You also seemed to be more sensible about the disc brake knuckles/spindles compared to Richard Ehrenberg. For the members here that don't remember, RE was critical of using the FMJR/B knuckle because of it's slightly taller height, under the mistaken belief that the taller unit would result in over-angling of the upper ball joint and resultant failure. It never happened anywhere but RE stuck with that claim.
Others used them knowing RE was a respected tech but few ever wrote anything disparaging about him, Andy included. He was polite and didn't come right out and call him out, they just forged ahead with matters and made stuff work.
I used a MP '528 cam in my 440/493 based on favorable articles written by AndyF too. It was great until my poorly chosen oil led to a failure in May 2022.
I'm glad to see Andy post here, a forum that is growing and adding new members each day.
 
That guy annoys people on every forum he is on.
He was a rabble rouser at Moparts, he pissed off people at FBBO and now he is doing it here.
With him, everyone else is an idiot and only HE knows the right way of doing things.
Instead of letting sleeping dogs lie, he is compelled to educate the unwashed masses by bestowing us all with his great wisdom.
He is the Mrs Kravitz of the neighborhood, the Karen of the forum and the turd in the punch bowl.
He might have had a chance to blend in and be an asset to the forums but he immediately rubs many people the wrong way.
He is knowledgeable but very condescending. If he would just STOP being argumentative about everything, he could actually help others and even learn something in the process.
The "man" repeats this pattern on every forum he joins. Read his posts or IGNORE him. It is your choice.
Yup, we all have choices, and I believe everyone has the right to read and discuss mine that I chose to share or ignore them.
Can we get past the drama and move on please?


PS I'd like to see a quote where I have labeled anyone an idiot.
 
The Morrison setup looks cool. I like the Vette uprights. Lots of brake choices and the geometry should be good with those. I also like the modern approach to wheel bearings. Stick all the wear stuff in a disposable package.
My only issue with the Morrison setup is that I don't see a market for it. It is super expensive and I'm not sure what problem it solves. The chassis shop I work with can install a custom built front stub with a double A arm suspension for less money than the Morrison kit. A custom built front stub frame will be stiffer, have more header clearance, and probably weigh less since it isn't a frame bolted to a frame.
I guess it all revolves around people wanting a bolt in kit. But the Morrison kit seems like it has advanced the concept of bolt in past the point of where it makes sense. If you're going to go to all that work why not just cut the existing front stub off and build a new one that does what you want?
When you spend that much money as you correctly note, having the option of unbolting and moving it to another car has advantages
 
It doesn't matter what they built, I mean it's a metal stamping with some welding, they could literally have sent it to anyone who can meet quality standards. Honestly even those weren't very high, I agree on that. The general design of it is quite good though, especially considering using a slide rule and what else was out there that had existed before. It's clear they actually understood engineering principles.

The entire car is made with spot welds of varying quality. I can't remember ever seeing a picture of an OEM K-frame with popped spot welds. The welds at the pivot pin tubes, sure. The 3D shape in the vertical direction and the k shape in the horizontal direction is where the strength comes from but the stamping is basically free of ribs or darts otherwise. The brackets are somewhere between Billy Bob with a stick welder and Ray Charles welding it with his feet yet plenty of them are out there, I don't think the failure percentage is that high.

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I've had this discussion with you before. I know you're going to say for crash impacts, yes it would help stiffen the part near the firewall that helps with crash which also means the front structure between the driver and the front suspension is stiffer. Which is postive for handling. You even see tying the firewall to the inner fenders / shock towers on things as early 1960 Falcons to the strut towers before there was even FMVSS or they cared at all about crashworthiness.

I adapted the braces to my own car and yes you can feel the difference, it's minor but there. Maybe you can't tell with stock 85 lb/in wheel rates but at 252 lb/in yes.

We have seen the spot welds actually pop between the firewall and the inner fenders with high spring rates. That area of the car flexes a lot because of no surprise to anyone who knows engineering having things at generally right angles isn't very stiff on its own and this triangulates the firewall to the inner fenders. This is preventing parallelagramming to some extent. They're strong enough you can shake the car back and forth and flex the suspension with them. You see a variation of this type of brace on basically everything once there was any care at all about chassis stiffness. The car companies are borderline fanatical about stiffening this exact area of the car in the same way now for better performance and NVH. And usually they're also called k-braces. I'm seeing a pattern here. Almost all newer BMWs, 2024 Mustang, and even the 2020+ explorer have similar braces. Our cars are made out of fairly light gauge sheet metal, they need all the help they can get for stiffness. The frame rails themselves are even quite light weight. It's not comparable to a modern fully boxed truck frame which may have similar cross section.

I like the concept in some applications for a Monte Carlo bar, but to equate those Micky Mouse fender braces which were mandated to reduce repair cost in the event of a 5 mile an hour crash to a Monte Carlo bar is a bit of a stretch.

I have seen spot welds fail on K's and as you mentioned you have seen them pop in other areas also. I challenge anyone to show me a failed weld on any HDK product. I have had pieces bend, but never a failed weld. I think Mopars K-frame was / is a great design for its intended purpose....but to claim it is a better / stronger piece than a product (HDK) with ZERO failures is where I gotta call BS.

Another OEM K frame fun facts. The design of the K would have been Mopars.....AO Smith was the sub contactor who very likely got the bid by guess what main factor?.....being the cheapest. Good or bad, just the way it was.
 
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When you spend that much money as you correctly note, having the option of unbolting and moving it to another car has advantages

all I can say to Morrison Ent and anyone else that wants our business.....welcome to the (Mo) party. WTF took you so long.

I was BSing with my QA1 right rep as they were getting ready to launch their GERST stuff. He said the higher ups were sarcastically saying how Mopar people are a "special kind of customer".......I didn't miss a beat and replied "Yes, we are"

I get it....the question is...do the rest of you?
 
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I have seen spot welds fail on K's and as you mentioned you have seen them pop in other areas also. I challenge anyone to show me a failed weld on any HDK product. I have had pieces bend, but never a failed weld. I think Mopars K-frame was / is a great design for its intended purpose....but to claim it is a better / stronger piece than a product (HDK) with ZERO failures is where I gotta call BS.

................AO Smith was the sub contactor who very likely got the bid by guess what main factor?.....being the cheapest. Good or bad, just the way it was.
Spoiler alert for those with fragile mindsets, at the risk of being labeled "argumentative", let me counter the above, as member HemiDenny seems to have sufficiently thick skin in these discussions (that is a compliment?):

1. There were millions and millions of Mopar K members built over decades. I submit no other current manufacturer of aftermarket k frames has built enough combined to be in the 1 of x number of failures people have mentioned about OEM k member failures. Consider if 20,000,000 mopar K members (a wild guess) were built, and their failure rate was .01%, statistically they would have to build on average 20,000 before a single spot weld failure
2. Spot welding can be a very suitable weld for the intended application
3. Maybe 90%? of a Unibody car is spot welded
4. Spot welds are prone to corrosion because of adjacent gaps allows water, salt, etc to act over time
5. Spot welds are very difficult to quality control visually
6. Anything built on a production line can result in numerous repeated errors by a single worker that may take years to discover (Max 737 door plugs?)
7. There are millions of OEM K frames that never failed over billions of miles
8. We have no real understanding of what abuse any OEM K members that failed might have suffered
9. Not sure if any "failed" weld OEM K members contributed to any accidents or worse
10. It seems the K member spot welds were manually made and almost random in number/location, and that begs the question, were the failed OEM K members a result of missing or misplaced spot welds and not any design or process shortcoming?

Taking all the above into account, I have yet accept there is a stronger aftermarket K member on the market than an OEM, accepting the verdict is still out on the Morrison, IMO.
Additionally, Every design will fail at some point, due to process (OEM poor spot welds?), design (Gerst?) or abuse like running into a ditch (RMS?)

Sorry I can't accept what I have seen to call anything "stronger" than an OEM K member yet. I'll ignore BS comment.

HemiDenny, everything indicates, you take great pride in your product, you have passion for your craft, you have a great following, you have a satisfied customer base over a number of years, you are open minded enough to publicly discuss the topic online (nobody else is it seems), and you are not thin skinned (yet? lol).
 
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Spoiler alert for those with fragile mindsets, at the risk of being labeled "argumentative", let me counter the above, as member HemiDenny seems to have sufficiently thick skin in these discussions (that is a compliment?):

1. There were millions and millions of Mopar K members built over decades. I submit no other current manufacturer of aftermarket k frames as built enough combined to be in the 1 of x number of failures people have mentioned about OEM k member failures.
2. Spot welding can be a very suitable weld for the intended application
3. Maybe 90%? of a Unibody car is spot welded
4. Spot welds are prone to corrosion because of adjacent gaps allows water, salt, etc to act over time
5. Spot welds are very difficult to quality control visually
6. Anything built on a production line can result in numerous repeated errors by a single worker that may take years to discover (Max 737 door plugs?)
7. There are millions of OEM K frames that never failed over billions of miles
8. We have no real understanding of what abuse any OEM K members that failed might have suffered
9. Not sure if any "failed" weld OEM K members contributed to any accidents or worse
10. It seems the K member spot welds were manually made and almost random in number/location, and that begs the question, were the failed OEM K members a result of missing or misplaced spot welds and not any design or process shortcoming?

Taking all the above into account, I have yet accept there is a stronger aftermarket K member on the market than an OEM, accepting the verdict is still out on the Morrison, IMO.
Additionally, Every design will fail at some point, due to process (OEM poor spot welds?), design (Gerst?) or abuse like running into a ditch (RMS?)

Sorry I can't accept what I have seen to call anything "stronger" than an OEM K member yet. I'll ignore BS comment.

HemiDenny, everything indicates, you take great pride in your product, you have passion for your craft, you have a great following, you have a satisfied customer base over a number of years, you are open minded enough to publicly discuss the topic online (nobody else is it seems), and you are not thin skinned (yet? lol).

I love the discussion but never afraid to express my opinion......crap, sometimes I even confuse my opinion with fact.

I'm only speaking from 50 years plus of experience. When doing any kind of racing, one of the first things we did was "fix" the K ...re-weld and add reinforcing. And I do not want HDK customers to have to do that

No harm , no foul with me. I just call it the way I see it loving every friggin minute of it. Heck, I'm not always right...just ask my wife. :)
 
I like the concept in some applications for a Monte Carlo bar, but to equate those Micky Mouse fender braces which were mandated to reduce repair cost in the event of a 5 mile an hour crash to a Monte Carlo bar is a bit of a stretch.

I have seen spot welds fail on K's and as you mentioned you have seen them pop in other areas also. I challenge anyone to show me a failed weld on any HDK product. I have had pieces bend, but never a failed weld. I think Mopars K-frame was / is a great design for its intended purpose....but to claim it is a better / stronger piece than a product (HDK) with ZERO failures is where I gotta call BS.

Another OEM K frame fun facts. The design of the K would have been Mopars.....AO Smith was the sub contactor who very likely got the bid by guess what main factor?.....being the cheapest. Good or bad, just the way it was.
Could there be a stronger one made, sure, absolutely. But saying they do nothing, when even if they are designed for a 5mph crash so there isn't damage (which is a much higher load than cornering) doesn't do anything to stiffen this part of the car (which is badly needed with any front end setup, stock, yours, or anyone else's) is wrong. I did it first as an experiment and it seemed to work so why not keep it? Worst case I'd have to plug weld some holes shut with the MIG welder. Maybe in the future, I'll make some better ones. I have the USCT braces sitting here and they just plain aren't going to clear a 275 tire as far as I can tell so I can't use them to help. I got literally nothing done in 2023 until mid-September thanks to having hernia surgery which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

The foundation in which any of this attaches is fundamental because otherwise the chassis of the car and the k-frame is flexing it's making everything else on the suspension less effective. The spot welds are popping at the connection of the inner fender aprons to the firewall piece. Those bars attach the firewall upper pinch weld to the inner fender aprons. Even small pieces will help the stiffness since they'll be more in tension/compression with cornering loads than in bending.

Do you have pictures of a k-frame failure where the spot welds broke? I have seen the tubes for the pivot pins crack and also the steering box brackets where I would assume it was stick welded in all likelihood at the factory. I would like to see that regardless. As was mentioned previously, the OE ones have gone hundreds of thousands of miles with unknown amount of abuse. In my case, the car is very high mileage, I don't know the exact amount but it was used as a daily in Flordia for 30 years, I used it for a daily for summers for 4 or 5, and has even survived the 275 tires for 9 years / over 10k miles and driving on the lovely Michigan roads with 252 lb/in wheel rate. When I got the car there literally wasn't a strut rod bushing at all on the right side. They're good pieces for something that was mass produced with quesitonable quality control, which is a testimate to the design philosphy. We're also now using tires 100 mm wider on 4" larger wheels with signifigantly more grip and 2.5x the spring rate. I mean showing failures (bending could be a failure also depending on what the conditions causing it were) on 50+ year old mass produced parts with hundreds of thousands of miles vs something that's newer and has relatively few miles driven on it is apples and oranges. Things made of steel can flex literally forever so long as the stress is below the fatigue limit. The things you have here to reduce flexing are limited only to the weld beads, the "over the tube" design, and the wall thickess/steel grade. Our world is full of examples of arches, gussets, general triangulation, tension rods, all to make things stiffer.

I don't have doubts in your workmanship on assembling it at all. My point being, its not optimized from a shape perspective for handling, especially in resisting bending/torsion. Relatively small changes can help it a lot. The goal of commenting is "constructive criticism" to say, well, if we put our minds together, can we improve it? I think that is really what racerjoe is after in the end, right? If you don't want to consider it, that's your choice also. No worries.

If we wanted to go all out here, why not tie into the frame rails behind the lower control arms? Excuse my sketching skills on snip and sketch, the scale might not be great, but basically have a yellow tab on both sides of the rail, a tube fits in the middle, you pick up the rear mounting point, and tie it back to the frame. Should spread the load out further and resist twisting/bending of the LCA attachment. Or widen the LCA completely and mount it further back on this point.
1706303655198.png


Everything in a car is built by the cheapest bidder who meets quality standards and can stay in business. I am acutely aware of that on a daily basis at work.
 
Regardint the sway bar, there is never a perfect side load, it's always a tension load up/down on those points so it's unlikely it slides at all. But there is a load with an angle and that design will be under bending and torsion as a result of it being unsupported. It just seems like they would be flexing all over the place. The design in the Alter-K is different and IMO better in this area.
I was trying to prevent this thread to get back to the strength debate, but I'll address this and I'm done.

@goldduster318 I can appreciate the deep investigations from your engineering mind. I'm an EE and can get down in the weeds on many topics as it pertains to electric power generation.

What would you say an average torsional spring rate is on a 1" solid sway bar? 250lbs? If so, 250lbs won't be applied to only one tab, it will be a shared load on both of them. Likely one side being pulled up and the other side being pulled down. Would it be even on each, I don't know.

The tabs are 5" long and the center of the bar is 2.25" from the crossover square tubing. From what you are saying, a 225lb load applied 2.25" from a welded corner of a U shaped bracket will bend it. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I'm saying that $hit ain't going anywhere. So here's what I did. I put a magnetic base dial indicator on the bottom of the lower radiator square tubing (old school XV piece). The indicator was on the end of the sway bar tab. Then, using a wooden block on the sway bar itself, I jacked up the car up using the sway bar to lift the weight of the car. The block was about 4" away from the sway bar tab. I lifted the car 2.5" from its static height and the end of the tab deflected .025". I continued to lift the tire off the ground and deflection increased to .045". The indicator returned to zero when I removed the jack. My car weighs 3500lbs. I have no idea what one corner weighs, but I bet its way more than 250lbs, or even 125lbs if the loads are divided equally on the mounts. Heck, just lifting the corner 2.5" was likely way over 250lbs. Also remember I was measuring 2.75" further away than center of the bar, so likely less deflection directly under the bar. What does this prove, heck if I know, but it certainly isn't a wet noodle as some have said. FWIW, I also tried with the mag base on the bottom of the K and that resulted in only .010" at 2.5" of suspension lift. However I chose another spot to eliminate comments about the K moving with the sway bar tab. I'm sure this will que the comments about the frame twisting now since the deflection was greater when the mag base was on the lower rad support. My response to that is, it's a 50 year old car picking up one corner. I'd like to see another one that doesn't move .015"!

Next, I'll comment on the paralleling discussion. I get it, there's no triangulation, but you aren't going to see that K riding down the road without a car attached to it. Once it's bolted in, it essentially has two 16' long frame rails with a whole bunch of structure holding it square.
Do you ever sit in a bucket seat on the floor and wonder why it falls backwards? That doesn't mean its a shitty design, it just isn't being used as intended.

Lastly, reference your markup below. That rectangle plate holding the LCA tube is triangulated. There's piece on each side with the endplates as seen. The force would have to overcome the triangulation and the brackets which are designed in such a way that they slide on to the end of the tube for construction, they aren't simply butt welded, they are keyed to the square tubing. Then it would have to twist the mounting bracket that is made the same way. And lastly, the cross bar would be pushing on the other side that is obviously the same construction.


1706305463086.png

FYI. This is the current sway bar mount design, not like the one in the pictures above.
sway bar.jpg
 
Thanks for making the effort to test it in this way.

Because that design turns it more into a cantilever beam and assuming the force at the center of the bar is the same in all cases, simply moving it closer to the tube by mounting the bushing vertically as seen in the RMS Alter-K-Tion is an improvement (though the sway bar is very low hanging otherwise), it's just flat out deflecting less. Let's say that with weight transfer included the car might have 800 lbs by jacking up one corner in a static condition.
1706309739625.png


The issue with the parallelagraming is -> that is the most weak direction of the car and where its quite relevant for cornering, if, for example, there was no k-frame, the car in front of the windshield is kind of like a cardboard box with the top and the bottom removed. It would parallelagram or even splay very easily. The K-frame of any type helps resist it, and the k-shape would be harder to twist with a load applied at the LCA pivot point than having a simple crossmember at a right angle. The more the load is behind the rear most bolt, more lever arm, meaning more flex each time. The stock one the arm is behind in the same way, but the pins are directly behind the rear bolts for the k-frame. It's actively reducing the twisting directly into both the k-frame and the chassis without any cantilever lever arm. This is where adding something behind comes in because it would generally stop any of this twisting action relative to the body and spread out the load. You can see this with something like the MM mustang K-member. It's not possible with the OE type oil pans and the available headers to have the crossmember go directly through the LCAs which would be an alternate design.

I don't know the reason for the cross bar having a rod end. The left to right side can twist meaning if, for example, you went into a corner and the left side mount is attempting to move in an arc due to the twisting of the k-frame about the axis going front-rear in the car Since there is a ball there, it just keeps the straight line distance to the other side the same only in the cross car direction, it will do zero for any simultaneous front-back movement because it will just pivot on the rod end instead of having to bend the rod to deflect. With only one bolt on each side, it can also run an arc. The degrees of freedom are not adequately restricted to get the best possible effect. For example, my truck has a removable crossmember similar to the transmission crossmember on our cars in roughly the same area and it has two bolts on each side with what's essentially a box tube in the middle. It has no degrees of freedom other than literally twisting the steel.

The frame rails themselves are pretty weak and nothing like say a hydroformed pickup truck frame. They're just supported by the inner fenders. The cars flex all over the place which is why we have seen cars with high wheel rates cracking the spot welds or inner fenders. It just fatigues out with the higher loads.
 
Could there be a stronger one made, sure, absolutely. But saying they do nothing, when even if they are designed for a 5mph crash so there isn't damage (which is a much higher load than cornering) doesn't do anything to stiffen this part of the car (which is badly needed with any front end setup, stock, yours, or anyone else's) is wrong. I did it first as an experiment and it seemed to work so why not keep it? Worst case I'd have to plug weld some holes shut with the MIG welder. Maybe in the future, I'll make some better ones. I have the USCT braces sitting here and they just plain aren't going to clear a 275 tire as far as I can tell so I can't use them to help. I got literally nothing done in 2023 until mid-September thanks to having hernia surgery which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

The foundation in which any of this attaches is fundamental because otherwise the chassis of the car and the k-frame is flexing it's making everything else on the suspension less effective. The spot welds are popping at the connection of the inner fender aprons to the firewall piece. Those bars attach the firewall upper pinch weld to the inner fender aprons. Even small pieces will help the stiffness since they'll be more in tension/compression with cornering loads than in bending.

Do you have pictures of a k-frame failure where the spot welds broke? I have seen the tubes for the pivot pins crack and also the steering box brackets where I would assume it was stick welded in all likelihood at the factory. I would like to see that regardless. As was mentioned previously, the OE ones have gone hundreds of thousands of miles with unknown amount of abuse. In my case, the car is very high mileage, I don't know the exact amount but it was used as a daily in Flordia for 30 years, I used it for a daily for summers for 4 or 5, and has even survived the 275 tires for 9 years / over 10k miles and driving on the lovely Michigan roads with 252 lb/in wheel rate. When I got the car there literally wasn't a strut rod bushing at all on the right side. They're good pieces for something that was mass produced with quesitonable quality control, which is a testimate to the design philosphy. We're also now using tires 100 mm wider on 4" larger wheels with signifigantly more grip and 2.5x the spring rate. I mean showing failures (bending could be a failure also depending on what the conditions causing it were) on 50+ year old mass produced parts with hundreds of thousands of miles vs something that's newer and has relatively few miles driven on it is apples and oranges. Things made of steel can flex literally forever so long as the stress is below the fatigue limit. The things you have here to reduce flexing are limited only to the weld beads, the "over the tube" design, and the wall thickess/steel grade. Our world is full of examples of arches, gussets, general triangulation, tension rods, all to make things stiffer.

I don't have doubts in your workmanship on assembling it at all. My point being, its not optimized from a shape perspective for handling, especially in resisting bending/torsion. Relatively small changes can help it a lot. The goal of commenting is "constructive criticism" to say, well, if we put our minds together, can we improve it? I think that is really what racerjoe is after in the end, right? If you don't want to consider it, that's your choice also. No worries.

If we wanted to go all out here, why not tie into the frame rails behind the lower control arms? Excuse my sketching skills on snip and sketch, the scale might not be great, but basically have a yellow tab on both sides of the rail, a tube fits in the middle, you pick up the rear mounting point, and tie it back to the frame. Should spread the load out further and resist twisting/bending of the LCA attachment. Or widen the LCA completely and mount it further back on this point.
View attachment 1716197878

Everything in a car is built by the cheapest bidder who meets quality standards and can stay in business. I am acutely aware of that on a daily basis at work.
In a few applications where the rear bar cannot be utilized due to a customer's particular oil pan or some weird exhaust placement that is one of the substitutes.
 
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I was trying to prevent this thread to get back to the strength debate, Without explanation, that is an odd goal but I'll address this and I'm done. OK

@goldduster318 I can appreciate the deep investigations from your engineering mind. ????

The tabs are 5" long and the center of the bar is 2.25" from the crossover square tubing. From what you are saying, a 225lb load applied 2.25" from a welded corner of a U shaped bracket will bend it. It will and it will also distort the square tubing it is attached to I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I'm saying that $hit ain't going anywhere. Nobody has made that claim it is "going anywhere" So here's what I did. I put a magnetic base dial indicator on the bottom of the lower radiator square tubing (old school XV piece). The indicator was on the end of the sway bar tab. Then, using a wooden block on the sway bar itself, I jacked up the car up using the sway bar to lift the weight of the car. The block was about 4" away from the sway bar tab. I lifted the car 2.5" from its static height and the end of the tab deflected .025". I continued to lift the tire off the ground and deflection increased to .045". The indicator returned to zero when I removed the jack. My car weighs 3500lbs. I have no idea what one corner weighs, but I bet its way more than 250lbs, or even 125lbs if the loads are divided equally on the mounts. Sorry the loads are equal and opposite Heck, just lifting the corner 2.5" was likely way over 250lbs. Also remember I was measuring 2.75" further away than center of the bar, so likely less deflection directly under the bar. And this should prove that the RMS SB mount location is a stiffer design by simply being half the distance from the square tube crossmember and also allowing a shorter arm for the SB with a smaller diameter needed for same SB wheel rate What does this prove, heck if I know, but it certainly isn't a wet noodle as some have said. Who said that? FWIW, I also tried with the mag base on the bottom of the K and that resulted in only .010" at 2.5" of suspension lift. However I chose another spot to eliminate comments about the K moving with the sway bar tab. I'm sure this will que the comments about the frame twisting now since the deflection was greater when the mag base was on the lower rad support. My response to that is, it's a 50 year old car picking up one corner. I'd like to see another one that doesn't move .015"! It you find this acceptable, I am then puzzled why so many here are constantly obsessed with LCA welded gussets, 11/16" TR, using subframe connectors AND torque boxes together, etc without any knowing numbers? This exercise here would have been most useful in the big picture had the same measurements had been made with an OEM sway bar set-up, and I fully admit you were under no obligation whatsoever to do so. The only explanation I can find to my puzzlement above always seems to circle back to the age old "confirmation Bias" predicament, and that will rankle some, but I have heard that before.




View attachment 1716197910
FYI. This is the current sway bar mount design, not like the one in the pictures above.
View attachment 1716197915
 
I don't know the reason for the cross bar having a rod end. The left to right side can twist meaning if, for example, you went into a corner and the left side mount is attempting to move in an arc due to the twisting of the k-frame about the axis going front-rear in the car Since there is a ball there, it just keeps the straight line distance to the other side the same only in the cross car direction, it will do zero for any simultaneous front-back movement because it will just pivot on the rod end instead of having to bend the rod to deflect. With only one bolt on each side, it can also run an arc. The degrees of freedom are not adequately restricted to get the best possible effect. For example, my truck has a removable crossmember similar to the transmission crossmember on our cars in roughly the same area and it has two bolts on each side with what's essentially a box tube in the middle. It has no degrees of freedom other than literally twisting the steel.
I believe it is very basic. And a restriction beyond one degree of freedom at this location, given the "real estate" available, and that the likely loads that would soon lead to failure likely due to fatigue with more joint restrictions. while proving that there is loading here and its significant. But you can't include a solution that you know will fail, so you don't tackle the problem until you can. Yes the spherical joint connection is only an improvement, but certainly not a cure all.
I've seen many Monte Carlo bars with spherical ends strangely.
 
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Did you figure out the tire size limitation on the front from the K-frame? It was quite easy to put the 275-35-18s in the car in my case with the stock stuff, so was suprised to see such narrow tires.

For anyone that might care, while Joe didn't have an issue with this, it is a valid question for some of the other kits out there. My brother is doing a Demon with a ControlFreaks kit and it cost him like $1000 each for custom wheels so he could fit a skinny 235 tire under the fender. Not saying he couldn't have found an off the shelf wheel that worked, but it wasn't a common size and the track width of the kit he bought was an issue.

Not pertinent to the HDK kit, but maybe someone will find the info useful.
 
For anyone that might care, while Joe didn't have an issue with this, it is a valid question for some of the other kits out there. My brother is doing a Demon with a ControlFreaks kit and it cost him like $1000 each for custom wheels so he could fit a skinny 235 tire under the fender. Not saying he couldn't have found an off the shelf wheel that worked, but it wasn't a common size and the track width of the kit he bought was an issue.

Not pertinent to the HDK kit, but maybe someone will find the info useful.
To be clear, your brother wanted skinny 235 tires, or was limited to 235 tires?
 
Thanks for your valiant effort in helping everyone learn. I'll be over here on the sidelines driving the **** out of my car and now worrying about how strong the coil over towers are.

Isn't this what all of this is about? Driving our cars, depending on our goal and intended use of course.

And while there are always things open for discussion and different ways to do things, based on Joe's autocross results when compared to his nemesis Cobra, sure seems like he made it better. Was it because of the HDK, the addition of adjustable shocks or something else, no idea. And in some ways it doesn't matter. Joe likes how it drives and it is faster compared to the Cobra so that is good enough for him.

It's not like this is NASCAR or something were we better be competitive every week. If an HDK or some other COC kit works for someone, more power to them. Not going to lie, but I have my reservations and a limited budget, but to each their own.

Now if we were doing a group build to compete in the Ultima Street Car Challenge, maybe it would be different. :D
 
To be clear, your brother wanted skinny 235 tires, or was limited to 235 tires?

He couldn't get anything bigger in there. As it was, his backspacing is limited by the rack and his front space was limited by the fender. And he had to add steering stops to keep the wheel from hitting the rack too.

In my opinion, not a great design. But to each their own.
 
@J-c-c interesting, your method of replying makes it impossible to reply to you. Don't know if you did that on purpose, but in my opinion not a graceful way to have a discussion.


Your reply to Joe "You are the self-appointed decider what this thread is about now?" is somewhat funny in that he started the thread and as such is uniquely positioned to do just that.
 
I also like the modern approach to wheel bearings. Stick all the wear stuff in a disposable package.

Plus, generally, the hub and wheel bearing assemblies have a tone ring built in for wheel speed sensors. Not that anyone is going to try and retrofit ABS, but the idea of a built in tone ring was part of what got me going down the road of a fabricated spindle.

I just want it so I can send wheel speed signals to and ABS module so the PCM get's what it needs and can do cruise control. But maybe ABS and traction control could be an option later? :)
 
@J-c-c interesting, your method of replying makes it impossible to reply to you. Don't know if you did that on purpose, but in my opinion not a graceful way to have a discussion.

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Your reply to Joe "You are the self-appointed decider what this thread is about now?" is somewhat funny in that he started the thread and as such is uniquely positioned to do just that.
Glad you find it "funny" and sorry you can see no "grace", likely because succinctness and honesty were of a higher priority.
Noted, OP controls the direction of all replies that follow, Got It.:thumbsup:
 
Plus, generally, the hub and wheel bearing assemblies have a tone ring built in for wheel speed sensors. Not that anyone is going to try and retrofit ABS, but the idea of a built in tone ring was part of what got me going down the road of a fabricated spindle.

I just want it so I can send wheel speed signals to and ABS module so the PCM get's what it needs and can do cruise control. But maybe ABS and traction control could be an option later? :)
Is an automatic far behind?:lol:
 
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