DOES THE HDK SUSPENSION K-MEMBER HANDLE BETTER THAN A T-BAR SUSPENSION?

[J-c-c]

Sticks in head that XV found that a stiffer lower core support made a significant difference in how rigid the frame rails were. Don’t remember if they had a k-frame in it but kind of seems like it did?

Been a lot of years, I would have to dig out the magazine articles to verify. And can’t do that for a little while.

I remember that marketing claim rather well, and could never get a definitive explanation why exactly it was important what the frame rails were doing forward of being firmly mounted to a rigid k member that a more robust lower radiator crossmember was suppose to improve. Seemed to be as important as how much the radio antenna tip moved.

 

[72bluNblu]

Sticks in head that XV found that a stiffer lower core support made a significant difference in how rigid the frame rails were. Don’t remember if they had a k-frame in it but kind of seems like it did?

Been a lot of years, I would have to dig out the magazine articles to verify. And can’t do that for a little while.

The XV article is online here
Take The XV Challenge – MoparAction

They don't specifically say if the K member was installed during testing, but since the pictures show the car bolted to the surface plate by it's drums the suspension is in place which would mean the K is there.

One of the bigger findings was the need for a shock mount to firewall brace. If necessary for a torsion bar car, it would be even more important for a coil over conversion, simply because of how the suspension loads are moved from the torsion bar crossmember to the K or shock mounts. The HDK frame hoops help strengthen the shock mount itself, but they don't do anything for one of the less rigid parts of the chassis, namely the firewall to shock mounts/frame rails.

While XV obviously was selling their products so they "had a dog in the fight" so to speak, the chassis testing they did is still really the only scientific structural testing published for these cars. There's absolutely no way I'd run a coil over conversion of any brand without adding some kind of forward bracing.

 

[72bluNblu]

I remember that marketing claim rather well, and could never get a definitive explanation why exactly it was important what the frame rails were doing forward of being firmly mounted to a rigid k member that a more robust lower radiator crossmember was suppose to improve. Seemed to be as important as how much the radio antenna tip moved.

I believe @BergmanAutoCraft was at XV when they did this testing, he could probably add some detail to what was in the article.

 

[J-c-c]

The XV article is online here
Take The XV Challenge – MoparAction

............ the chassis testing they did is still really the only scientific structural testing published for these cars........

I believe this simplistic definition applies somewhat to XV press releases:

Propaganda: "The intentional selective use or distortion of facts with the primary purpose to change, alter, or sway another's position or opinion on a matter at hand and not to widen, inform, or move a discussion along"

IMO most reasonable people should be able to agree often on facts. The issue usually goes astray on how they are interpreted.
I read the original article upon release numerous times.
Maybe I should review again to see what I missed.

 

[DionR]

I remember that marketing claim rather well, and could never get a definitive explanation why exactly it was important what the frame rails were doing forward of being firmly mounted to a rigid k member that a more robust lower radiator crossmember was suppose to improve. Seemed to be as important as how much the radio antenna tip moved.

You must be assuming they were selling kits. They were selling cars and I would expect that generally they wouldn’t spend money on something they didn’t need.

They had the data, they could have even fudged them or lied and said the lower radiator support wasn’t needed and saved some money on the builds. But they didn’t.

 

[J-c-c]

You must be assuming they were selling kits. They were selling cars and I would expect that generally they wouldn’t spend money on something they didn’t need.

They had the data, they could have even fudged them or lied and said the lower radiator support wasn’t needed and saved some money on the builds. But they didn’t.

If it wasn't needed, and they didn't include it, what was the "sizzle" left to market beyond undisclosed multi post data?

The front lower radiator support was if I remember correctly a welded alum member. That is very big no no design wise if it is critical and to be heavily reverse loaded at high cyclic rates.
However, if your goal is to make a sale and just get it out the door, it matters little.

 

[72bluNblu]

I believe this simplistic definition applies somewhat to XV press releases:

Propaganda: "The selective use or distortion of facts with the primary purpose to change, alter, or sway another's position or opinion on a matter at hand and not to widen, inform, or move a discussion along"

IMO most reasonable people should be able to agree often on facts. The issue usually goes astray on how they are interpreted.
I read the original article upon release numerous times.
Maybe I should review again to see what I missed.

Well, you can certainly argue that there's more to chassis testing than putting a chassis on a surface plate and testing deflection with corner loads. Because clearly there is.

But, that is a valid (if simple) way to test a chassis. And really there's no way to "game" it, you load a corner and measure the deflection. There are certainly different ways to interpret that information, and again you can argue how important reducing some of that deflection is too. Since you've provided no actual data, I don't see what's wrong with looking at what XV did. And really XV didn't come up with shockingly different information than what people already knew and had already been doing as far as chassis stiffening.

You must be assuming they were selling kits. They were selling cars and I would expect that generally they wouldn’t spend money on something they didn’t need.

They had the data, they could have even fudged them or lied and said the lower radiator support wasn’t needed and saved some money on the builds. But they didn’t.

Well, they were selling kits as well. You could buy a lot of the chassis stiffening products and their suspension packages that they made for their cars separately.

If it wasn't needed, and they didn't include it, what was the "sizzle" left to market beyond undisclosed multi post data?

The front lower radiator support was if I remember correctly a welded alum member. That is very big no no design wise if it is critical and to be heavily reverse loaded at high cyclic rates.
However, if your goal is to make a sale and just get it out the door, it matters little.

No, the lower radiator support was rectangular steel tubing that welded to the frame rails in place of the lower factory support. It's right in the pictures.

They had a K frame that was welded aluminum, but there's no issue with that if done properly accounting for the different strength and stiffness of the aluminum. No more so an issue than a tubular steel welded K, which all the aftermarket K's are.

 

[J-c-c]

Well, you can certainly argue that there's more to chassis testing than putting a chassis on a surface plate and testing deflection with corner loads. Because clearly there is.

But, that is a valid (if simple) way to test a chassis. And really there's no way to "game" it, you load a corner and measure the deflection. There are certainly different ways to interpret that information, and again you can argue how important reducing some of that deflection is too. Since you've provided no actual data, I don't see what's wrong with looking at what XV did. And really XV didn't come up with shockingly different information than what people already knew and had already been doing as far as chassis stiffening. I remember the XV 4 post testing with a F1? engineer to be the greatest thing since sliced bread at the time in the Mopar world, All the buzz. I never saw any of this data shared from XV or that "people already knew", can you post it?


Well, they were selling kits as well. You could buy a lot of the chassis stiffening products and their suspension packages that they made for their cars separately.




No, the lower radiator support was rectangular steel tubing. If you say so. Maybe they went to steel because I complained so strongly about it? LOL

They had a K frame that was welded aluminum, but there's no issue with that if done properly accounting for the different strength and stiffness of the aluminum. No more so an issue than a tubular steel welded K, which all the aftermarket K's are. I'm sorry, there are huge issues with welded structural Alum suspension pieces. Welded steel and welded Alum have night and day differences regarding fatigue, and why you very seldom see if ever welded alum suspension items. It a common misconception.

 

[DionR]

If it wasn't needed, and they didn't include it, what was the "sizzle" left to market beyond undisclosed multi post data?

Because that's all they offered? Forgetting what XV offered maybe?

 

[DionR]

The XV article is online here
Take The XV Challenge – MoparAction

Interesting article, thanks. I like how their k-frame was triangulated and no huge cantilever on the lower control arm mounts. And look how wide the spread is on those Vette lower control arms at the pivot. Should be nice and stiff.

 

[DionR]

Ha! I figured out how to quote you! Sort of.

DOES THE HDK SUSPENSION K-MEMBER HANDLE BETTER THAN A T-BAR SUSPENSION?

Sticks in head that XV found that a stiffer lower core support made a significant difference in how rigid the frame rails were. Don’t remember if they had a k-frame in it but kind of seems like it did? Been a lot of years, I would have to dig out the magazine articles to verify. And can’t do...

www.forabodiesonly.com

I never saw any of this data shared from XV or that "people already knew", can you post it?

You can look at the article just like anyone else and see how they braced the cars. J-bars inside the fenders, torque boxes, subframe connectors, etc. It's all there and far as I know only the lower radiator support was anything new and none of it was earth shattering.

If you say so.

Again, look at the article at least. Last time I looked, it was impossible to weld aluminum to steel and the lower radiator support sure looks welded in to me. Plus, as Blu noted above, they sold them separate and they were steel.

I'm sorry, there are huge issues with welded structural Alum suspension pieces. Welded steel and welded Alum have night and day differences regarding fatigue, and why you very seldom see if ever welded alum suspension items. It a common misconception.

Not sure I would classify the k-frame as a "suspension" component as it doesn't move. The lower controls arms are aluminum Vette parts as are the spindles. That stuff is pretty common in aluminum.

 

[J-c-c]

Article is as I remember it, a lot of fluff. If that Alum K member design pictured doesn't make you vomit, nothing will.
Their biggest break thru, and its huge, is the custom tuning the shock package for the specific car they are 4 post testing, and something none of us here are likely ever to be able to achieve.
They deserve the end they met IMO.

 

[DionR]

Well, they were selling kits as well. You could buy a lot of the chassis stiffening products and their suspension packages that they made for their cars separately.

You're right, I guess they were. I had forgotten about that.

I would guess though that in the beginning they were looking to build kits. But just based on the article. I wonder if the parts were something that came along later.

Either way, good point.

 

[J-c-c]

The kits became avaliable when the fully dressed cars were not in demand. Again, if I remember correctly it took a bit of arm twisting to get them to offer kits, and that was close to the end of the line of that operation.
Like who needs to buy a straight round tube from them for a SFC?

 

[J-c-c]

Here are 2 threads from over on Moparts that have the early reception in 2007 to the new XV offerings and all the drama that entails.
The first one has a lot of claims, the second gets a bit more testy as all 3 aftermarket manufacturers get into the mix RMS, XV, and MF.
I will say, we were a lot more civil in those times.
XV Level 1 Suspension

Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s

 

[72bluNblu]

I'm sorry, there are huge issues with welded structural Alum suspension pieces. Welded steel and welded Alum have night and day differences regarding fatigue, and why you very seldom see if ever welded alum suspension items. It a common misconception.

LOL!!!

What utter horse puckey! All aluminum, welded or not, has a fatigue life. And all welds, ALL welds, have a fatigue life too. Yes, even in steel. That fatigue life is different depending on the base material and filler, and depending on the alloy the welding process itself. Hell welding high carbon steel has a whole host of issues if the temperatures aren't controlled and the product isn't heat cycled afterward to address carbon migration into the welds.

As far as welded suspension components, well, you pretty much only see them in the aftermarket to begin with. OE stuff is pretty much all cast or stamped, because having individual welded components adds complexity to manufacturing. And it's a quality variable, which OE manufacturers don't want in suspension components.

You rarely see welded aluminum components in the aftermarket because high quality aluminum welding is a skill not a lot of people have. And since most of our aftermarket suspension components aren't actually engineered, just welded together, well, you don't see people using aluminum. Using aluminum for those pieces is fine, IF you do the engineering work to make sure the parts will hold up. Most companies use mild steel because they do ZERO engineering on this stuff.

It's not a problem inherent with welded aluminum. Properly engineered and welded there's no "huge issues" with welded aluminum. Hell most motorcycle frames nowadays are welded cast aluminum, which introduces another entire level of complexity. Which can be addressed of course with proper engineering and procedures, obviously.

I like how when you really throw out wild stuff you put your reply in other peoples quotes so you can't be quoted too. Classy.

The kits became avaliable when the fully dressed cars were not in demand. Again, if I remember correctly it took a bit of arm twisting to get them to offer kits, and that was close to the end of the line of that operation.
Like who needs to buy a straight round tube from them for a SFC?

You're just making stuff up now. The article about the cars came out in December of '06. The articles you linked were '07, and they already talked about the suspension kits that you could buy and install yourself.

I bought a set of XV set belts in '08, and absolutely at that point you could buy any of their suspension components separately because I looked at all of them. The original XV was around for a few years after that point, past 2010 for sure.

 

[HemiDenny]

For anyone interested....and kinda back on topic.

Cold, wet and rainy here in NW Ohio....so between trips to Boutwell Customs to check out a small paint color correction on my buddy Marks Hemi Demon, checking up on the 69 back half Dart build, and adding components to the Hellcat / Road Runner as they show up, I decided it was as good of time as any to change out the Qa1 1" extended ball joint (been in there since 2010) for the 2" All Star versions in the silver Duster.

I really like what I see, so much I cut one apart to examine how I might adapt the 2" stud as a retro fit to the Qa1 / adjustable pre-load housing. Unfortunately the heat treated ball portion is slightly larger than the Qa1 ball. So I headed to the machinist to see if he can built the longer stud to fit in the Qa1 adjustable pre-load housing for the HDK customers. Be an fairly easy swap out because you would not even have to remove the Qa1 ball joint housing from the control arm, simply unlock and unscrew the lid.

Life is good.

 

[J-c-c]

LOL!!!

What utter horse puckey! All aluminum, welded or not, has a fatigue life. And all welds, ALL welds, have a fatigue life too. Yes, even in steel. That fatigue life is different depending on the base material and filler, and depending on the alloy the welding process itself. Hell welding high carbon steel has a whole host of issues if the temperatures aren't controlled and the product isn't heat cycled afterward to address carbon migration into the welds.

As far as welded suspension components, well, you pretty much only see them in the aftermarket to begin with. OE stuff is pretty much all cast or stamped, because having individual welded components adds complexity to manufacturing. And it's a quality variable, which OE manufacturers don't want in suspension components.

You rarely see welded aluminum components in the aftermarket because high quality aluminum welding is a skill not a lot of people have. And since most of our aftermarket suspension components aren't actually engineered, just welded together, well, you don't see people using aluminum. Using aluminum for those pieces is fine, IF you do the engineering work to make sure the parts will hold up. Most companies use mild steel because they do ZERO engineering on this stuff.

It's not a problem inherent with welded aluminum. Properly engineered and welded there's no "huge issues" with welded aluminum. Hell most motorcycle frames nowadays are welded cast aluminum, which introduces another entire level of complexity. Which can be addressed of course with proper engineering and procedures, obviously.

I like how when you really throw out wild stuff you put your reply in other peoples quotes so you can't be quoted too. Classy.



You're just making stuff up now. The article about the cars came out in December of '06. The articles you linked were '07, and they already talked about the suspension kits that you could buy and install yourself.

I bought a set of XV set belts in '08, and absolutely at that point you could buy any of their suspension components separately because I looked at all of them. The original XV was around for a few years after that point, past 2010 for sure.

It appears you cannot distinguish "puckey" from vomit. I'm glad to quote the above for all eternity. Study up on the term "HAZ" regarding welded alum when you get off your high horse.

And if what you say is indeed true that XV was still kicking in 2010, and you want to nail me to cross in that I might be a couple years off in its demise about an event 14 years ago that matters little in the big picture, be my guest, it fits all your other misguided assumptions, speaking of class.

 

[HemiDenny]

Good of time as any to add the latest
version HDK UCAs with the ball joint boot modification. This mod has been a standard item for around a year now. The HDK UCA ball joint receivers allow the dust / grease boot to captured on the bottom of the ball joint (like OEM) Aluminum or steel sleeves based on extension of the stud then hold the boot in place.

works great.

 

[DionR]

It appears you cannot distinguish "puckey" from vomit. I'm glad to quote the above for all eternity. Study up on the term "HAZ" regarding welded alum when you get off your high horse.

And if what you say is indeed true that XV was still kicking in 2010, and you want to nail me to cross in that I might be a couple years off in its demise about an event 14 years ago that matters little in the big picture, be my guest, it fits all your other misguided assumptions, speaking of class.

Funny, I would have said you were the one on the high horse...

 

[DionR]

Good of time as any to add the latest
version HDK UCAs with the ball joint boot modification. This mod has been a standard item for around a year now. The HDK UCA ball joint receivers allow the dust / grease boot to captured on the bottom of the ball joint (like OEM) Aluminum or steel sleeves based on extension of the stud then hold the boot in place.

works great.

View attachment 1716200391

Is that the 1" extended ball joint?

 

[HemiDenny]

Is that the 1" extended ball joint?

yes....it is a file photo. No pics of the two inch yet. I'm not sure I want to post any of the 2"....someone will want a gusset on it.

 

[J-c-c]

Funny, I would have said you were the one on the high horse...

Really, "You're just making stuff up now", "What utter horse puckey! ", "You rarely see welded aluminum components in the aftermarket because high quality aluminum welding is a skill not a lot of people have", "Most companies use mild steel because they do ZERO engineering on this stuff.", "I like how when you really throw out wild stuff". "Classy", "And since most of our aftermarket suspension components aren't actually engineered, just welded together, well, you don't see people using aluminum", and so on High horse banter, ring a bell?

 

[72bluNblu]

It appears you cannot distinguish "puckey" from vomit. I'm glad to quote the above for all eternity. Study up on the term "HAZ" regarding welded alum when you get off your high horse.

And if what you say is indeed true that XV was still kicking in 2010, and you want to nail me to cross in that I might be a couple years off in its demise about an event 14 years ago that matters little in the big picture, be my guest, it fits all your other misguided assumptions, speaking of class.

LOL!

Well there are exactly 2 K-members for these cars that have had FEA, and they would be the factory K and the XV. Vomit all you like, but if you don't like that aluminum K it's only your own ignorance fueling your opinion, not anything based in engineering principles. Hell the swing arm on my '07 Triumph Speed Triple is welded cast aluminum, it's almost like it isn't a problem. The reason you don't see more welded aluminum is only because it requires a higher level of design, engineering, and skill of construction than the aftermarket companies that make suspension for these cars want to put into their products. Which is why the XV stuff was so expensive, which is part of why they went out business (that and poor customer service, but, that's not a design problem).

As for your overly dramatic "nailing to the cross", well, yeah, you're wrong. XV was alive and kicking in 2010, and still sending out publications. Check the copyright date on their XV magazine attached below.

You're the one that made up the facts to support your opinion, I just happen to have the evidence.

Good of time as any to add the latest
version HDK UCAs with the ball joint boot modification. This mod has been a standard item for around a year now. The HDK UCA ball joint receivers allow the dust / grease boot to captured on the bottom of the ball joint (like OEM) Aluminum or steel sleeves based on extension of the stud then hold the boot in place.

works great.

View attachment 1716200391

Aluminum!? How dare you!

yes....it is a file photo. No pics of the two inch yet. I'm not sure I want to post any of the 2"....someone will want a gusset on it.

Hey if you've got the engineering analysis to back up not having a gusset, have at it

 

[DionR]

Check the copyright date on their XV magazine attached below.

That’s pretty cool how they welded that aluminum lower radiator support to the steel frame rails and sheet metal. You can actually see the welds in the pictures of the Cuda build.