j par
Well-hung Member
You haven't...
Nobody has..
Edelbrock carb adjustment
- Thread starter skrews
- Start date
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Nobody has..
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
What’s frustrating and irritating is the C/E guys all claim that IF by chance you take one of those carbs off and install a Holley or clone and it goes faster and runs better it’s only because you are wholly ignorant of how the C/E carbs work and tune.
Of course, when the opposite occurs, and a Holley is replaced by a C/E carb and it runs better, it’s because the Holley is junk, untunable, leaky and worthless. It couldn’t be that they don’t understand how the Holley works and how it should be tuned. No, that can’t be. It’s just the Holley is junk.
BTW, I’m still surprised that many of the Holley tuning myths still hang around like a bad onion. Just getting those errors out of your head makes tuning the Holley much more simple, and makes them much more fuel efficient.
PRH
Well-Known Member
“Most”? People don’t really understand how a carburetor functions.
At least not a deep enough understanding of the subtleties of how the different circuits interact with each other, and how to make adjustments to them, in the event they need adjusting.
And that’s fine. They just want it to work.
(IMO)I have enough of an understanding on how a Holley type carb works, so that unless it’s just absolutely the “wrong” carb for the application, or is one of the newer models that has some inherent design flaws(like a Holley XP950), I can usually get one to run pretty well.
One of my biggest bitches with the C/E style comes into play when you put one on a single carb application where the motor has a “big” cam that provides very low idle/low speed vacuum.
Without some sort of surgery ....... it’s not going to idle well, and usually the tip in response is also poor, because the low speed circuits don’t operate well when the signal is weak...... which is just what you get when the cam is big.
It’s just fundamental...... an idle circuit that functions optimally on a motor with a cam that’s like 214/224-114 isn’t going to have enough capacity to work equally well on motor with a cam that’s 275/285-106.
For most of the stuff I’m involved with, there is no really “correct” C/E style of carb I can sell, and be confident it’ll work satisfactorily with only basic tuning.
I know I can buy a new Holley style carb for any typical race motor, and be able to get it easily dialed in on the dyno with regular adjustments.
You just need to buy the right one....... and fortunately...... there are plenty to choose from.
At least not a deep enough understanding of the subtleties of how the different circuits interact with each other, and how to make adjustments to them, in the event they need adjusting.
And that’s fine. They just want it to work.
(IMO)I have enough of an understanding on how a Holley type carb works, so that unless it’s just absolutely the “wrong” carb for the application, or is one of the newer models that has some inherent design flaws(like a Holley XP950), I can usually get one to run pretty well.
One of my biggest bitches with the C/E style comes into play when you put one on a single carb application where the motor has a “big” cam that provides very low idle/low speed vacuum.
Without some sort of surgery ....... it’s not going to idle well, and usually the tip in response is also poor, because the low speed circuits don’t operate well when the signal is weak...... which is just what you get when the cam is big.
It’s just fundamental...... an idle circuit that functions optimally on a motor with a cam that’s like 214/224-114 isn’t going to have enough capacity to work equally well on motor with a cam that’s 275/285-106.
For most of the stuff I’m involved with, there is no really “correct” C/E style of carb I can sell, and be confident it’ll work satisfactorily with only basic tuning.
I know I can buy a new Holley style carb for any typical race motor, and be able to get it easily dialed in on the dyno with regular adjustments.
You just need to buy the right one....... and fortunately...... there are plenty to choose from.
Yes, springs, rods, jets. I just got tired of working with the Carter comp 750.
PRH hits on a few things I dealt with for a long time. It was the late 70's and 80's and I was dead set on the Carter.
I just couldn't get it to work. Replaced it with a Holley 4779 750 and never looked back. Ran better OOTB
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yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Yeah, you just didn’t understand the simplicity of the carb.
Those carbs will bolt onto anything from a /6 to a Pro Stocker and if you are really an oddball, you’ll just need to change the metering rods.
Records would fall, more time could be spent tuning the chassis and gearing and the records would drop again.
If only those morons could grasp the C/E carb. If only. Their lives would be all the better. And, the tunnel ram guys could run them in line, and not have to bother with that nasty, incomprehensible sideways linkage.
Surely I jest.
yup just like the holley 6160 vac secondary carb that Holley build for that application Works grate! for what it is intended for.
I don't mind them AVS's but would still choose the list 6160 holley over the avs.
Now if i had to choose from a standard 1850 Holley and a AVS........well...... that would be a toss up.
The simple fact that the more "racing oriented" you get, The more the Holley become the "favorite" carb. not saying you can't make any carb work right on your ride. you can, including some of the most odd ball carbs like that funky square carb. seen some fast cars running them.
If there isn't enough vacuum to keep the metering rods down at idle with the lightest springs that you have............then tuning isn't possible.
Here's a video of one of the best Carter builders/tuners in the country:
Had some friends in the 80's that were carb guys in the Stock/SS... they were charging 300-500 back then to go through carbs to get them right and legal with all the trick stuff. That was a bunch of $ back then. Minimum wage was in the 3.35/hr range! LOL
Playing in that arena and running at the top of class isn't cheap and NOTHING is ootb. I remember going through 500 connecting rods to get 8 that we liked for any specific build. Fricken boxes of rods everywhere to get stuff that matched up nicely.
C/E and Holley styles will work. Depends on what you want to do. I agree that if the Stock elim cars could run any carb, most would have a square bore holley on them withing days of any rule change. And the OEM didn't always do things to make things run the best with the supplier deals and all. Easier to stick with one group than branch out. That all changed around 1970 for mopars when holley 4 barrels started to become std equipment on many V8 engines. Mopar was a Carter company prior to that change. Might be why the street Hemi had the carters on it and not holleys. As mentioned, 68 SS got holleys.
Playing in that arena and running at the top of class isn't cheap and NOTHING is ootb. I remember going through 500 connecting rods to get 8 that we liked for any specific build. Fricken boxes of rods everywhere to get stuff that matched up nicely.
C/E and Holley styles will work. Depends on what you want to do. I agree that if the Stock elim cars could run any carb, most would have a square bore holley on them withing days of any rule change. And the OEM didn't always do things to make things run the best with the supplier deals and all. Easier to stick with one group than branch out. That all changed around 1970 for mopars when holley 4 barrels started to become std equipment on many V8 engines. Mopar was a Carter company prior to that change. Might be why the street Hemi had the carters on it and not holleys. As mentioned, 68 SS got holleys.
I must have read hundreds of threads line this over the years and all make very valid points. Some carbs have design flaws, manufacturing flaws etc but I'm my experience, it's usually not the carb - it's the user/s. Holleys are the SBC of the carb world - not necessarily because they're better, but because they have to most aftermarket support.
Here's what I have learned :
i. all carbs can work well, if the user understands the carb's design, its
limitations and their overall combo's requirements.
ii. no carb runs PERFECT out of the box, because every combo and application is
different
iii. custom carb builders know from experience what basic tune on a carb will
work in the ballpark for a given combo, but you still have to dial it once it's
on your engine.
iv. a carb does not know what brand is stamped on it any more than an engine
does - all have + & minus
v. get a wideband or even better, dual widebands installed, you'll be glad you
did.
vi. take the time understand your carb and how it works when tuning its circuits
from idle, transition, cruise and WOT on the carb design before you start
wrenching on it. The information is out there so there's no real excuse, do
some reading and get into it.
I have run a 2 & 3 circuit 1200 Holley Dominators, dual Thermoquads (awesome) dual Eddy Thunder AVS 800s, and single 750/850/950 HP Holleys successfully with big cams (270-280@.050). Loved em all
Nice, clean plugs on the street, killer throttle response, along with awesome cruise and WOT numbers. I HAD to learn and importantly, wanted to.....and am still learning. In the meantime I still have buddies who won't take the time to do this and have black plugs, washed out bores, dirty oil and stinky cars, yet they refuse to listen or take the time to learn. Ego gets in the way as always.
Lots of guys are going fast and running real good with Eddys and Carters, as well as Holleys and TQs. Just need to figure out what the carb/s likes on your combo and dial it in.
The key thing most miss are : patience, learning and application of what is learned. Most people are just too lazy or time poor to do so.....then blame the carb/s.
The key is to learn about/ understand the carb, some patience and at least a Wideband or two.
My 2c
Here's what I have learned :
i. all carbs can work well, if the user understands the carb's design, its
limitations and their overall combo's requirements.
ii. no carb runs PERFECT out of the box, because every combo and application is
different
iii. custom carb builders know from experience what basic tune on a carb will
work in the ballpark for a given combo, but you still have to dial it once it's
on your engine.
iv. a carb does not know what brand is stamped on it any more than an engine
does - all have + & minus
v. get a wideband or even better, dual widebands installed, you'll be glad you
did.
vi. take the time understand your carb and how it works when tuning its circuits
from idle, transition, cruise and WOT on the carb design before you start
wrenching on it. The information is out there so there's no real excuse, do
some reading and get into it.
I have run a 2 & 3 circuit 1200 Holley Dominators, dual Thermoquads (awesome) dual Eddy Thunder AVS 800s, and single 750/850/950 HP Holleys successfully with big cams (270-280@.050). Loved em all
Nice, clean plugs on the street, killer throttle response, along with awesome cruise and WOT numbers. I HAD to learn and importantly, wanted to.....and am still learning. In the meantime I still have buddies who won't take the time to do this and have black plugs, washed out bores, dirty oil and stinky cars, yet they refuse to listen or take the time to learn. Ego gets in the way as always.Lots of guys are going fast and running real good with Eddys and Carters, as well as Holleys and TQs. Just need to figure out what the carb/s likes on your combo and dial it in.
The key thing most miss are : patience, learning and application of what is learned. Most people are just too lazy or time poor to do so.....then blame the carb/s.
The key is to learn about/ understand the carb, some patience and at least a Wideband or two.
My 2c
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