Edelbrock carb adjustment

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  1. yellow rose

    yellow rose Master Of Insanity

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    You’d be surprised at the general ignorance on holley tuning. Luckily for me, I have a mentor who is bringing me along. He doesn’t just tell me stuff, he makes me think it through until I so far in the weeds I actually need help, and I’m not just being mentally lazy.


    It’s possible Hamburger just didn’t have the knowledge to tune the Holley as good as a TQ.

    The amount of misinformation and straight ignorance on Holley tuning is staggering. Just look at power valve timing, and how the power enrichment even works.

    Yet virtually every book, article, blog or whatever tells you the exact WRONG way to set power valve timing.

    That’s just one of many errors still taught, believed and defend by guys who just read the books, articles and blogs.
     
  2. PRH

    PRH Well-Known Member

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    Edelbrock makes TQ’s??
     
  3. j par

    j par Well-hung Member

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    I remember when such strong words and language was used in regards to a rag clutch and adjustments so forth and that anybody who didn't know about them was an idiot and anybody didn't know how to use them was a moron. But then comes along the clutch tamer for the diaphragm clutch which does or at least ends up with the same result or better with much less expense and much easier on the Fly adjustment and then attitudes ideas strong talk all change into something else...
    Some are fascinated by this approach and think it's god-like while others roll their eyes..
    Personally I'm happy with my Holley Carter Edelbrock thermal quads... LOL...
     
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    • j par

      j par Well-hung Member

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      My Holley's with metering rods look down upon you...
      IMG_20200908_165151.jpg
       
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      • yellow rose

        yellow rose Master Of Insanity

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        Don’t rewrite history. I still say the birth control pressure plate is junk (it is) and a rag disc is for a daily driver.

        But, so many guys are cheap bastards, and unwilling to learn to tune a clutch, the Clutch Tamer is the only option. And a rag disc is FAR better than any other of that dual friction junk that that’s the only option.

        Since I have realized that the vast majority won’t spend the money on a clutch and aren’t willing to learn how to tune one, I suggest they do the only other option they have for a stick.

        That, or they can switch to a powerglide.
         
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        • j par

          j par Well-hung Member

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          I still say that old tired method that was used years and years ago a rag clutch is an expensive hard to adjust way of doing things. maybe 15 years ago it was the only thing out there and you had to spend thousands of dollars to make it work learn all kinds of tricks and how to make it happen. do you have to crawl under the car every time you needed to make an adjustment and take a guess at it at best.
          Now the modern way to do things is to put a simple device under the dash that is easily adjustable with a twist of the knob.
          there was only one redheaded stepchild way of doing things and it was called a rag clutch... now modern thinking and technology has taken over and some just can't keep up with it or get their heads around it...
          Out with the old in with the new...
           
        • j par

          j par Well-hung Member

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          I hope I wrote that with enough reassurance of myself that I almost sounded god-like.... That way everybody has to believe every word I say or they feel themselves stupid....
           
        • j par

          j par Well-hung Member

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          And the first person who says we're derailing a thread about a guy sledge-hammering a carburetor is derailing...
           
        • yellow rose

          yellow rose Master Of Insanity

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          LOL...sintered iron is the disc of choice. You just don’t want to pay for it.

          The issue is I’m trying to have a discussion with someone whose clutch tuning experience is zero.

          You have no idea what is current, what works, where to start or what adjustments to make first.

          Ive tried to help, but you refuse to listen.

          So rather than buy a good clutch, and learn to tune, you buy a clutch that at best is ok, with some parts breaking disc and then try and control it with the clutch pedal.

          When the guys in Comp Eliminator start using the CT, then I’ll look into it. That will never happen. The most it’s used is by class rules, and guys that are tired of breaking parts and that is the cheapest route.

          You’re in the same boat with carbs. You won’t learn. The Holley OE the Holley clones will out power and out drive everything else.

          Unless you TEST something other than what you have, you don’t know what you don’t have.

          You base everything on your one experience. You shouldn’t even be in this discussion.
           
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          • j par

            j par Well-hung Member

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            You think because you talk down on people that everybody else is listening to you and assuming that you have the experience you say you do...
            Every time you're asked to prove what you talking about you go on to even a bigger rant and a bigger temper tantrum...
            And you are correct I do have experience with my carburetors and I do have experience with my clutch & clutch devices...
            So your suggestion is I start buying stuff for comp eliminator? Do you buy stuff for comp eliminator? we all know the answer is no we all know that you constantly put down anyting drag racing yet talk about it constantly. You don't have a car that you take to the track you haven't been to the track in probably 15 years but yet you talk like you were there yesterday... with your own car no less. You talk about experience but if you do have any which still to this day goes unproven... There's certainly no proof of it...
            One thing is for certain my English teacher would have gave you an A in assertive self-insured writing...








            (A good old-fashioned get YR wound up thread...)
             
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            • 66fs

              66fs FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              He knew what he was doing. The only point I was trying to make was, if you know what you are doing, any carb can be made to work great. Look at Stock and Super Stock racers. I am not a racer, so I will not be using a Holley on anything I do.
               
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              • j par

                j par Well-hung Member

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                It's funny myself and anybody I give a ride to never say Hey it would be a little faster if you had Holley carburetors..(technically I do...)
                They say "HOLY (insert curse word)!!"
                 
              • Hysteric

                Hysteric Well-Known Member

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                There's lots you can do with the carter you just can't 'buy' the parts to modify it like a holley. Any carb can be modified because at the end of the day its all physics that determines how it works. As an example if you wanted to introduce air into the main well to slow the fuel down how would you do it? Would you stack 3 or 5 holes on one side or would you have a cylinder where you could place all the way around and have more holes but smaller in size so that the mixture is more homogeneous?

                When I first got into carbs I asked Shrinker what I could do to improve the the design of the Holley and his response was: "Fix a Holley and it will work like a Carter"

                And this:

                Carters design philosophy is similar to other manufacturers. That is its to size the booster and channel so that there is no need for air bleeding. Air bleeding (emulsion) is a crutch to enable cheap manufacturing to function across a wide range of applications. A carby can be designed so that there is zero emulsion. People think that emulsion air creates some form of improvement to atomization, that is not the case, you cant actually emulsify a liquid and a gas, you can only emulsify like substances like liquids with another liquid etc. What other manufacturers of carburetors do is they design the booster as a 2 stage so its got lots of vacuum, and to stop the mixture going rich at the top end they reduce the size of the drillings etc so that friction and turbulent flow control the AFR. Doing it this way reduces changes to AFR from weather changes. A carby thats over reliant on emulsion air is over reactive to weather because the emulsion air is effected by the air pressure of the day. If you dont use it it doesnt screw it up.
                Holley is a hotrodders carby but its not the best carby for someone who is seeking more.

                 
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                • yellow rose

                  yellow rose Master Of Insanity

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                  I agree with most of that. The over emulsion crisis was brought on by guys thinking more is better, when its most often not.

                  Where are you going to find a Carter, or Carter style carb that has a 1.875 venturi and 2.00 throttle blade? Or bigger? You can’t.

                  So how much of what Shrinker says adapts to big Venturi, big throttle blade carbs?

                  I wish he was still around to ask him. I’d love to hear his thinking on that.
                   
                • yellow rose

                  yellow rose Master Of Insanity

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                  I totally understand. My mentor can do unbelievable stuff with a Quadrajet and make serious horsepower with them.

                  The issue is cost, complexity and could you do the same or more with a Holley?

                  The answer is yes, you can.
                   
                • PRH

                  PRH Well-Known Member

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                  The way I see it is...... not everyone is, or wants to become a carb “guru”.

                  Most racers just want to buy something that works, bolt it on, and go racing.

                  For your typical big cam race engine, there will be some Holley or Holley type carb where you can do just that, and not have to reengineer the whole thing so it will idle in gear with your 280@.050 cam that provides 2” of vacuum.

                  It’s the difference between having literally hundreds of different part numbers, from a large contingent of suppliers to choose from....... vs a handful or parts from Edelbrock.
                   
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                  • crackedback

                    crackedback FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    What era did Ed Hamburger make that comment. Converter tech has come a long way from 70-80's. Stuff that was relevant and true then may not be today. I remember when stock and SS auto cars were easily .2 slower than the stick counterparts. Now it's not the same because of converters being light years better.

                    Holleys are so adjustable, you have to know where to look and solve each circuit in the big picture. OOTB, they are like our old mopars were built a 1/16 here and there isn't a big deal until you stack those tolerance all to one side then things are out of whack.

                    Ii absolutely agree on the emulsion "monkey see, monkey do" among carb companies and builders. If they could stick 10 emulsions in a block, I think some of them would try! One of the best metering blocks around is the old 3310 3 emulsion unit... solid piece.
                     
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                    • 66fs

                      66fs FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                      Long time ago. When did he stop racing. Since this is a race forum I won't expound any further since a Holley will work for that. So will most any 4 barrel carb.
                       
                    • rumblefish360

                      rumblefish360 So close, yet so far away FABO Gold Member

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                      Oh hell yea.

                      What year now was that?
                      I doubt it but it is also the year the statement was made and what was available then. How far developed and what Holley was available in Ed’s day? Fast forward how many years since the days of Ed?


                      I have no doubt that a TQ, Edelbrock/Carter can perform really well and stand next to or right close behind a Holley until the serious guns come out. Then the (Credit PRH!) racier stuff, LOL! Race engines come out and the tune-ability of the Holley prevails.

                      I‘ve seen some cool mods done to a Edelbrock. Minor mods on a TQ. But a Holley is made to modify. @yellow rose should write a post explaining how to tune a Holley..... some.... power valve wise... just sayin....

                      I can get a TQ to perform pretty darn good. I haven’t yet modified one for a “Race Engine” build. I’m currently not all that curious. Maybe one day.....

                      (Come on retirement day! And lotto.... what the hell! Might as well throw that in there too!)
                       
                    • Hysteric

                      Hysteric Well-Known Member

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                      I remember him saying a properly set up 750 would make 650 HP on a 420 cube engine. I would imagine he would say use 2 carbies as he ran 2 on his own race engine that was making 903 Hp from 412 cubes with 365 cfm.
                       
                    • yellow rose

                      yellow rose Master Of Insanity

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                      Interesting. I do know he was making his own carbs, but I haven’t looked into them much, and I don’t know what became of that stuff once he passed.
                       
                    • 66fs

                      66fs FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                      No, Holley makes a close copy. The Street Demons.
                       
                    • 66fs

                      66fs FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                      How do those Class racers make so much power with those "inferior" Carter and Rochester carbs? What ever works for you is fine with me. I have about 100 carbs, no Holleys. I dislike Holleys, but I'm not stupid enough to take a sledge hammer to one, I'd sell it to some one who can, or thinks he can make it run. I ran a Holley for years, then woke up and started trying other carbs that ran just as good or better. I also have not bought a new carb in 30+ years. My friends that still race do run Holley carbs, but on their street cars run Edelbrock or TQ.
                       
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                      • skrews

                        skrews Well-Known Member

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                        They are stuck with those carbs as they have no choice. Given the option between what the rule book says is legal and what ever carb their heart desires, I guarantee most if not all would be running something else. Likely a Holley.
                         
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                        • 66fs

                          66fs FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                          No, they had no problem using a Quadra-Jet, or a Thermo-Quad. Like everything they did, it was meticulously thought out and executed. They did not care what the latest thing was, just what flat out worked. They opened my eyes wide. Another friend , with a 396, 4 speed Chevelle had to have an 850 Holley. The thing was so slow, I asked if he had the original QJ. I spent a day modding it and setting it up for him. Next track day, the QJ made so much more bottom power it ripped the lining off the clutch disc on the first pass. But, he put the "race car" Holley back on and kept going slow. That QJ is probably still sitting on a shelf in his garage. Just one example. 98% of people don't need a Holley and all the associated tuning, in fact they would be better off fixing or tuning what they have.
                           
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