PanGasket
has cork sides
I really wanna see the results you get with this. Very cool build so far!
EFI Bung in head update
- Thread starter pishta
- Start date
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pishta
I know I'm right....
Update: Juss fabbed the fuel rail. Went the EZ route and took one off a Northstar V8. It has the identical 2.00" injector spacing and it was an EZ take out, 4 bolts! Came with an integrated fuel pressure regulator too, only downside is that its a "dead head" rail meaning the pressure regulator is in front of the rail on the feed side. Usually its on the end to bleed off the pressure and keep the fuel in circulating, but its a minor thing. Itll make the fuel lines easier to run as they both will feed off the back of the head, out of site. Cut the first 3 off, and then the last 3 off. Trim to butt fit and braze. Bend the fuel lines so they follow the curve of the head at the rear and bend the rear mounting tab so its flush with the engine sling boss. make a little plate that goes between the boss and the mounting tab and bolt them together. Use the 9/16 mystery bolt on the front of the head to make a front rail mount. Make sure you use equal pressure when fitting this on the injectors as the middle is going to be weaker at the braze point. I think the rail is stainless as I cant get any pipe solder to stick, will get it professionally welded.
slantsixdan
=..=
Nifty, but I'm confuzzed; is this a returnless fuel rail (no fuel return line to the tank)?
PanGasket
has cork sides
it appears that it has the return on the same end as the feed oddly.:-k least that's what I'm seeing.
Wolfy2U
Army Aviation Retired!
If I remember right, I read somewhere that the chevy vette had a fuel Injection system that had the return built into the filter that was before the regulator. Might have to look that one back up.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
Ya'll are talking about the Corvette fuel/reg. Many EFI modders use it because for $20 (O'Reilly's) you get a 56 psi reg with your fuel filter. True "return-less" means only 1 tube going forward from the tank (fuel pump in tank). That was an EPA mandate ~2001 so gas in the tank didn't get heated by flowing to/from the engine bay. I haven't read of vapor lock problems, since the boiling point of gas is much higher at EFI pressures.
I don't know that it is uncommon for a "pressure reg on rail" (2000-) to be installed at the upstream side, so fuel is dead-headed to the rest of the rail. I have one from a Magnum engine at home. I kind of recall that the supply and return are on the same side of the rail, as in Pishta's. I expect it has more to do with how the fuel lines are run in the car. It probably wouldn't affect the rail pressure. They all operate as "back-pressure regulators", which is similar to a "pressure-relief valve". Most reference the fuel pressure to intake manifold pressure, but the Corvette filter/reg doesn't, so it controls to 56 psig, i.e. relative to atmosphere.
That stainless Northstar rail looks like a good choice. The Magnum rail has a nylon hose connecting the 2 sides, which is a failure point. Nylon fuel hose is used in most modern cars and scares me. They have no clamps and I have read of it cracking over time. Nothing like a high-pressure gasoline spray to make a nice fire. Usually they drip first, so you smell it.
Junkyard diving will save a lot of time and money. For my someday slant EFI plans, I bought a used V-6 rail with injectors (Intrepid, I recall) real cheap. The spacing closely matches the runners on a slant intake, you just slide along till you find the spot. I'm not too worried about spraying right at the intake valves. I don't know that anyone ever proved that is important.
I don't know that it is uncommon for a "pressure reg on rail" (2000-) to be installed at the upstream side, so fuel is dead-headed to the rest of the rail. I have one from a Magnum engine at home. I kind of recall that the supply and return are on the same side of the rail, as in Pishta's. I expect it has more to do with how the fuel lines are run in the car. It probably wouldn't affect the rail pressure. They all operate as "back-pressure regulators", which is similar to a "pressure-relief valve". Most reference the fuel pressure to intake manifold pressure, but the Corvette filter/reg doesn't, so it controls to 56 psig, i.e. relative to atmosphere.
That stainless Northstar rail looks like a good choice. The Magnum rail has a nylon hose connecting the 2 sides, which is a failure point. Nylon fuel hose is used in most modern cars and scares me. They have no clamps and I have read of it cracking over time. Nothing like a high-pressure gasoline spray to make a nice fire. Usually they drip first, so you smell it.
Junkyard diving will save a lot of time and money. For my someday slant EFI plans, I bought a used V-6 rail with injectors (Intrepid, I recall) real cheap. The spacing closely matches the runners on a slant intake, you just slide along till you find the spot. I'm not too worried about spraying right at the intake valves. I don't know that anyone ever proved that is important.
Not sure how I missed this thread - subscribed!
KitCarlson
Well-Known Member
I was confused about the return-less system, so did more research and found that the filter and regulator are in the tank. Not a good place to service but they suggest 100,000 mile service. When connecting hoses in-tank, it is essential to use in-tank hose like Gates 30R10, regular hose will not stand being submerged in gas.
The fixed fuel pressure works, but there is an advantage in fuel pressure regulated by manifold pressure when using larger flow injectors or on turbo cars. I have experience with each and desire manifold regulated pressure, since it cuts back fuel some at idle, resulting in improved control resolution.
Many single line systems now monitor fuel pressure with a sensor and control pump motor speed to regulate pressure. This is the best for not heating fuel, and precision fuel pressure regulation. Since manifold pressure is also measured, fuel pressure may be properly regulated for constant differential pressure at injectors, for consistent flow vs on-time.
The fixed fuel pressure works, but there is an advantage in fuel pressure regulated by manifold pressure when using larger flow injectors or on turbo cars. I have experience with each and desire manifold regulated pressure, since it cuts back fuel some at idle, resulting in improved control resolution.
Many single line systems now monitor fuel pressure with a sensor and control pump motor speed to regulate pressure. This is the best for not heating fuel, and precision fuel pressure regulation. Since manifold pressure is also measured, fuel pressure may be properly regulated for constant differential pressure at injectors, for consistent flow vs on-time.
slantsixdan
=..=
There is discussion of the effects of (apparently) less-than-optimal intake manifold placement and angle of injectors in [ame=http://u225.torque.net/cars/tech/Papers/900852.pdf]this SAE paper[/ame] by Chrysler see page 9, "Intake Manifold" section. If you take a look at Figure 17 (zoom in), the injector placement and angle on the Chrysler 2.2 & 2.5 MPFI engines (all turbos + the '93-'95 FFVs + the '91-'95 Mexican non-turbos) looks "wrong", but those engines run well.
805moparkid
Slant and AFX Guy
hey dan there is a good "modern headlight" thread starting you may like to jump in on!
pishta
I know I'm right....
The rail has the regulator right under the inlet, so its not a true "dead head" like my Breeze. The fuel gets back to the surge tank via the 2nd stainless line at the back of the head. I chose a surge tank so I wont have to run 12 feet of high pressure EFI hose, just about 4 feet from the tank (actually a huge diesel spin on fuel filter) which will be mounted forward of the alternator and fed by the low pressure carter mechanical fuel pump from the tank. It gets pressurized from the Bosch external inline fuel pump (Mercedes S-500 pull) from the surge to the regulator to pressurize the rail and what is left over ~54 psi gets routed back to the surge tank which eventually overflows back to the old fuel tank via a return line plumbed into the sender, directed away from the sock. The surge is a little obscure, but all that high pressure EFI line might get a little crazy under the car. We'll see.
KitCarlson
Well-Known Member
Pishta,
Thanks for the information on your fuel system. I plan similar, but thinking of using an inlet/float assembly to regulate the surge tank fuel level from mechanical pump, with electric pump inside surge tank, with local return and vapor vent "T" to tank and evap canister.
I need to finish my kitcar, and get started on efi for Barracuda. I wish I liked paint work
.
Thanks for the information on your fuel system. I plan similar, but thinking of using an inlet/float assembly to regulate the surge tank fuel level from mechanical pump, with electric pump inside surge tank, with local return and vapor vent "T" to tank and evap canister.
I need to finish my kitcar, and get started on efi for Barracuda. I wish I liked paint work
.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
SlantSixDan, Thanks for the link to the SAE paper. Great to get one free, since one usually has to pay ~$20. Good to have you back posting, somebody was looking for you last week with a slant question.
pishta,
Your fuel design sounds similar to the setup on Euro cars with the Bosch Jetronic system - M-B, VW, Audi, ... They have a sub-assembly mounted forward of the tank w/ fuel pump, accumulator, and regulator in one package. You can find photos on ebay. However, the parts aren't cheap. I got 2 of those fuel pumps cheap on ebay ($15 new), Walbro's version (smaller than Bosch). I had to buy the banjo fittings on the outlet, from a DeLorean supplier (they used Jetronic). I put one on my Newport 383 a few weeks ago after the Holley gear-rotor pump got flaky. I think they run ~50 psi for Jetronic, but I run it at 18 psi in my Pro-jection.
pishta,
Your fuel design sounds similar to the setup on Euro cars with the Bosch Jetronic system - M-B, VW, Audi, ... They have a sub-assembly mounted forward of the tank w/ fuel pump, accumulator, and regulator in one package. You can find photos on ebay. However, the parts aren't cheap. I got 2 of those fuel pumps cheap on ebay ($15 new), Walbro's version (smaller than Bosch). I had to buy the banjo fittings on the outlet, from a DeLorean supplier (they used Jetronic). I put one on my Newport 383 a few weeks ago after the Holley gear-rotor pump got flaky. I think they run ~50 psi for Jetronic, but I run it at 18 psi in my Pro-jection.
slantsixdan
=..=
Shhh! See whatchya done? Now that link's gone dead. Looks like for now you can use [ame=http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/9/30/2589169/900852.pdf]this one[/ame]. The SAE has gotten really tightfisted; these days they're all about making money however and wherever they can.
I'm mostly not.
PM or email is best.
Well, aren't we just a ray of sunshine? lol
slantsixdan
=..=
»shrug« Just statin' the facts, man. I've cut way back on my online posting here, there, and everywhere.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
I'll try to get Dan's SAE paper link to the TurboVan guys. Too bad one can't install a 2.5L in an A-body that I know of, but interesting what fuel injection and a tubocharger allows. It motivaties me towards my eventual slant plans. Checkout the video of an $800 Mopar minivan stomping a high-dollar Z28, 12.65 sec 1/4 mi. Imagine what it could do in a light Dart, and with 2 cyl added back, since I understand the 2.5 L block was based on the slant. Too bad we can't get the overhead cam and cross-flow head.
http://www.turbovan.net/pauls_van.mpg
http://www.turbovan.net/pauls_van.mpg
I know and we been missin you, almighty bearded one.
slantsixdan
=..=
There is a longitudinal version of the 2.5.
Imagine the humiliation!
Nope. No commonality at all, except for some of the same engineers working on both engines.
pishta
I know I'm right....
Thats no $800 van, he has that much in the transmission alone. I have read up on it. Still a junkyard hero though! Gonna get some more work done tomorrow. Got the MS stimulator built and running, but this stupid serial port connection issue is driving me nuts. I got 4 computers and none communicate with the MS1 or 2 upgrade, nor even loop back to themselves. Even trying linux(s) on my old HP laptop that has a serial port, others need USB gabage. MS3 has USB built in, thats a great option. I have been planted in this ceat for 3 days trying to get the serial issue solved. Good times! Im in the garage tomorrow
slantsixdan
=..=
havensole
Well-Known Member
Being as it wont loop back would tell me that it is something in your MS hardware. Check all solder points to make sure that nothing is crossed and all diodes/capacitors are facing the right way. If you've desoldered anything make sure that the solder pad on the PCB hasn't come up as can happen. Even if you bought one of the prebuilt boards I'd check this stuff first since a reversed capacitor or diode is a fairly easy mistake to make.
Really great project you're doing. I'm a huge fan of JB Weld. As long as the mix is right it will remain pretty darn strong. I've seen vids of people fixing cracked blocks with it, with variable results. Be really interested to see how it holds up over tie in the head.
Really great project you're doing. I'm a huge fan of JB Weld. As long as the mix is right it will remain pretty darn strong. I've seen vids of people fixing cracked blocks with it, with variable results. Be really interested to see how it holds up over tie in the head.
pishta
I know I'm right....
Ok, got the MS to talk. After replacingn the max232 Serial interface chip (Twice) and recapping That same chip with 4 higher volt rated .1 uf caps...it finally worked but only By physically plugged into the serial port in the back of my desktop pc! None of my cables worked, 25 pin serial with 9 pin adapters or the usb serial port trash they sell on ebay, complete garbage! So my MS box is hanging off the port on the back like a knife stuck in the computers back. My stim quit working but that is nothing compared to the MS not talking to the tuner software. It was the cable the entire time. i breadboarded the stim from local sourced parts Because i couldnt wait for shipping. Only saved me 20 bucks, not worth it unless you like to solder a tiny rollercoaster track of wires onto a 3x3 breadboard. It takes 5 little potentiometers that run about 5 a pop so the majority of the cost is those But ill describe it more in a MS thread. Lots of advice to share for 805 mopar or anyone else looking for a efi kit, but i tell you, the one offered here on this board As a bolt in is freakin cheap compared to the time inv;lved with MS.
Another note. The efi rail on some of the caddies northstar motors is unique in the fact that the intake is plastic ( no suprise) but it has built in retainers for the injector tops. They clip into the intake..because they are individual plastic pieces that are connected in series by some sort of heatshrunk hose! Maybe they saved 5 bucks a car doingnit that way instead of furnace brazing stainless? I got mine tig welded with some 160,000 strength filler rod. Dude says the tube will break before the weld.
Another note. The efi rail on some of the caddies northstar motors is unique in the fact that the intake is plastic ( no suprise) but it has built in retainers for the injector tops. They clip into the intake..because they are individual plastic pieces that are connected in series by some sort of heatshrunk hose! Maybe they saved 5 bucks a car doingnit that way instead of furnace brazing stainless? I got mine tig welded with some 160,000 strength filler rod. Dude says the tube will break before the weld.
KitCarlson
Well-Known Member
About the serial cable. If it works with 9 pin direct plug-in then you need a straight, pin for pin cable. Typically only 3 wires required, pins 2, 3, 5. I build my own.
The best USB to RS232 converters have Prolific, or FTDI chips inside. They seem to work well. There are however Chinese copies.
When a USB converter is plugged in it is assigned a COM port number. Plugging into different port results in new assignment, so it is easy to loose the port in the application configuration. I find it necessary to clear ports since I use a large number of USB serial devices. To find the assigned port look in the device manager of PC. Most applications get hung if USB is plugged in after application starts, or USB connector is wiggled.
I can be of further help in debug, and provide information on loop back testing, with terminal emulator.
I have been using Bluetooth, and happy to say goodbye to USB converters.
The best USB to RS232 converters have Prolific, or FTDI chips inside. They seem to work well. There are however Chinese copies.
When a USB converter is plugged in it is assigned a COM port number. Plugging into different port results in new assignment, so it is easy to loose the port in the application configuration. I find it necessary to clear ports since I use a large number of USB serial devices. To find the assigned port look in the device manager of PC. Most applications get hung if USB is plugged in after application starts, or USB connector is wiggled.
I can be of further help in debug, and provide information on loop back testing, with terminal emulator.
I have been using Bluetooth, and happy to say goodbye to USB converters.
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