Electronic Ignition Conversion HELP

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72DartSwingerV8

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I'm finishing up the 72 Dart Swinger 318 and it won't turn over. I got a Electronic Ignition system from a 76 Volare at a junkyard which included everything. This is how I wired everything:

Orange - to magnetic pick up distributor
Grey w/ Black stripe - to magnetic pickup distributor
Green - cut
Black w/ yellow stripe - to coil negative

Here's where I think I went wrong.

Light Blue w/ yellow - spliced into the dark blue that goes from ignition to the ballast resistor

the other ignition ecu with the three wires coming out is wired as:

white - grounded
green - alternator
dark blue - same ballast resistor terminal as the Light Blue w/ yellow goes to.

Now on the other side of the ballast resistor I have 2 Brown wires 1 of which go to the positive side of the terminal with the other going back into the harness somewhere. On the diagram it shows that I provide the wire to the coil positive but the wire looks stock. The diagram also shows that the yellow wire on the starter relay goes to the ballast resistor but the yellow wire off of my starter relay goes back into one of the large firewall plugs.

Everything was soldered so the connection is good but I think I have may have crossed a wire somewhere. ANy help would be greatly appreciaited and the sooner I get this doen the sooner I start it up!

here's the diagram I'm using:
attachment.php
 
On the earlier models to yellow wire to start relay didn't go anywhere else. The wire that is hot in start position on yours is that brown wire you didn't recognize.
The drawing doesn't suggest you should move the yellow wire.
 
on a 72 dart you shouldn't have to touch any other wires other then the ones your installing.

all you need to do is run the black/yellow wire to the negative coil and the light blue/yellow to the run side of the ballast. the green isn't used and the other two plug into the dist.


how about a few pics of what you have to help us understand a little better.
 
Judging on where they are, the first one goes to just what it's lying on--your washer motor.

I believe the second is probably the brake warning light, goes down the fender by the frame to the warning light switch.

You say it won't "turn over." Do you mean it won't crank, or that it will crank the engine on the starter but won't fire?

DEFINITIONS:

"turn over." same as "crank" as in the engine goes round on the starter

"fire" engine runs on it's own either briefly or starts and runs

"runs" engine continues to run.

The browns --one comes directly from the ign switch and is hot in "start" provides 12V for a hot spark to the COIL + (coil side of resistor) It SHOULD already be wired up

The "new diagram" talking about the yellow is wrong in this case, it is referring in your case to the brown, but again, your brown should already be wired up

The "other ECU" you mentioned is actually the voltage regulator and appears to be wired OK.

Don't mess with the yellow on your starter relay. It is SPECIFICALLY to run the starter relay (from the key) in "start" when the other push on terminal is grounded by the clutch/ neutral safety switch.

So you have three important, separate circuits in a Mopar ignition for "start"

Yellow, from the key, is hot in "start" and fires the starter relay

Brown, from key, provides 12V directly to coil in start

Blue , from key, provides "ignition run" when key is released to "run." This feeds ignition system through resistor, the alternator field, the regulator, electric choke if used, and I don't remember, possibly retard solenoid if used on distributor, and possibly idle solenoid if used.

IT IS IMPORTANT to check the blue for voltage drop.

With everything wired up, turn key to "run" engine OFF. Put one probe of your meter directly on the battery, the other probe where you can reach a "dark blue" connection, like the resistor. You should see NO more than 1/2 volt, and that is generous. More indicates a voltage drop from the battery, fuse link, through the bulkhead connector, to the ammeter circuit, to the ign switch connector, through the switch, back out the switch connector, and back out through the bulkhead. ALL these points can add to and cause volt drop.

My dart, before I did a partial re-wire, had a ONE VOLT drop and was causing an overcharge condition as well as hard starting.
 
I checked it and have 1/2 volt. I checked the starter relay and found that when I dosconnected the brown w/ yellow tracer and manually grounded it it turned over. Now I'm not getting any spark. It seems that I'm getting no power to the coil. Any ideas?
 
I would "simplify" the problem. Go over the diagram carefully and wire it up with clip leads if you have to, direct to the battery. With the system in "run" condition, you should have nearly same as battery to the "key" side of the resistor, a lot less at the other side, and the same voltage at the coil

You should have a fairly low voltage reading at the coil neg, which indicates that you are getting juice all the way from the battery, through the resistor, through the box, and through the coil.

MAKE SURE the box is grounded.

MAKE SURE you are getting juice to the blue "when cranking." Again, clip leads are handy, because the temporarily remove the car system "problems" from the mix.

Are you sure the box is good?

Are you sure the coil is good?

How about the reluctor gap in the distributor. Must be set to .008 with a non magnetic feeler (brass). I was just in O'Reillys a short while ago, and was amazed that they STOCK these

Frankly, from the "looks" of the wiring in those pictures, it's suspect.
 
Box is grounded and good. Coil is good. The only brass feeler i had was .010 and i set to that and got intermittent spark. I will buy a gauge tongight and try it out. However, I can still only crank the engine over with the key when the starter relay is grounded directly.
 
You need to get a test light and test the wires on the ballast resistor to make sure the power supply is right for the ECU, one side should have power with the key in the on position and the other side should have power when you have some one turn the key to the start position and turn the starter. If you have to ground the starter relay, you may have cut into the park safety switch for starting the car only in park. Make sure your distributor is not 180 degrees out if you do not get spark. Hope this helps you.
 
68dodge said:
You need to get a test light and test the wires on the ballast resistor to make sure the power supply is right for the ECU, one side should have power with the key in the on position and the other side should have power when you have some one turn the key to the start position and turn the starter. If you have to ground the starter relay, you may have cut into the park safety switch for starting the car only in park. Make sure your distributor is not 180 degrees out if you do not get spark. Hope this helps you.
Click to expand...

Come ON, man. the ballast will have power on BOTH sides with the key on, it will have battery on the "key" side and lower (dimmer) on the other side Whether the dist is 180 out or not has nothing to do with whether you will have spark. You should have spark where EVER the dist. points.

I agree, though, why are you having trouble with the relay? None of that should have been changed for this project. Is something in the ignition hooked up to something at the start relay? The yellow wire shown in that diagram may be confusing the issue.
 
I don't know why I'm having trouble with the relay. I didn't alter anything on it and went by the Chilton manual on how to check it. I went step by step and then once I removed the brown w/ yellow tracer and grounded it, it turned over from the key. I left all of the components there while I rebuilt the engine so there wasn't any tinkering with it.
 
I guessed I missed, you haven't run this AT ALL? right? Maybe you just didn't get it hooked up at the transmission? Maybe the trans linkage is misadjusted? (It IS an auto trans?)
 
Sorry about that. Let me clarify. The car has not run yet and was originally a points style distributor. 318 with 904 auto tranny. All of the electrical is hooked up to the transmission. Do you mean the 3 piece kickdown linkage? It needs adjustment I'm sure, but it needs to run first right? Is there a specific way that the plug in the tranny needs to go? It's a 3 prong plug but it can fit in there upside down or right side up, I'm not sure which is which. I should have clarified that in the beginning. Thanks for all the help so far 67Dart273, greatly appreciated.
 
67Dart273 said:
Come ON, man. the ballast will have power on BOTH sides with the key on, it will have battery on the "key" side and lower (dimmer) on the other side Whether the dist is 180 out or not has nothing to do with whether you will have spark. You should have spark where EVER the dist. points.

I agree, though, why are you having trouble with the relay? None of that should have been changed for this project. Is something in the ignition hooked up to something at the start relay? The yellow wire shown in that diagram may be confusing the issue.
Click to expand...

Common on man, you have to pull the wires off to check for power. The side of the ballast that has the coil wire, must have power on start up. No power it will not start. The power supply that goes threw the ballast is from the ignition side.
 
68dodge said:
Common on man, you have to pull the wires off to check for power. The side of the ballast that has the coil wire, must have power on start up. No power it will not start. The power supply that goes threw the ballast is from the ignition side.
Click to expand...

COME ON MAN Use your head

!!!!YOU CAN NOT CHECK FOR OPERATING VOLTAGE WITH WIRING DISCONNECTED!!!

"Why is this, you ask?"

It is because when you disconnect a wire, YOU REMOVE THE LOAD. You can have some pretty darn crappy connections in the path to the ignition switch, AND STILL SHOW 12V just fine with the wire disconnected.

TO get a true picture, you MUST check this under load, hooked up, so that you can see what's is happening.

Let's simplify this down to a "points" system, and let's "say" that you have the ever --popular bad connection in the bulkhead.

Here's the circuit---from the starter relay stud, ---through the fuse link--through the bulkhead--through the ammeter circuit--through the igntion switch connector--through the switch--back out the switch connector--back out the bulkhead--to the ballast--out the ballast to coil + --through the coil--to the points --WHICH ARE OPEN

This means that you have NO LOAD on this circuit. If you turn on the key, you WILL measure "battery" anywhere in that circuit--clear down to the open points!!!!!

Now we CLOSE the points, which puts the circuit under load IF the points are not corroded.

NOW we measure the drop everywhere-----(let's say) the .1-.2V into the bulkhead, the .2V through the ignition switch, and the .4V coming back out the bulkhead, so NOW instead of "battery" at the key side of the ballast, we measure "battery" (12.6) - bulkhead drop (.2) - switch drop (.2), -bulkhead drop (.4) and so now we have a grand total AT the resistor of 12.6-.8 = 11.8

What does all the above mean? You have found some significant bad connections from the battery through the harness and back to the ign system!!

To take this a step further, you cannot get a feel for what is "getting to" the coil without the coil drawing current. If the system is setting in a "run" condition/ engine off, the coil drawing current, you can measure EACH SIDE of the resistor and see what's going on.

Same thing is true of the brown bypass circuit. If one simple thing--like the bulkhead connector is corroded, you can NOT measure the "brown" circuit disconnected, because this will NOT show up the bad connection through the bulkhead.
 
72DartSwingerV8 said:
Sorry about that. Let me clarify. The car has not run yet and was originally a points style distributor. 318 with 904 auto tranny. All of the electrical is hooked up to the transmission. Do you mean the 3 piece kickdown linkage? It needs adjustment I'm sure, but it needs to run first right? Is there a specific way that the plug in the tranny needs to go? It's a 3 prong plug but it can fit in there upside down or right side up, I'm not sure which is which. I should have clarified that in the beginning. Thanks for all the help so far 67Dart273, greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

No, referring to shift linkage. You can easily check the park/ neutral switch, just find the harness (backup lamps and NSS) goes down from the relay/ bulkhead to the transmission. Disconnect the push on wire from the relay, and put a test lamp from that wire to the battery.

"Wiggle" the shifter in park and neutral. You should get a steady light if it's OK, a blinky light if it's marginal, or no light if something bad.
 
Alright, I adjusted the shift linkage and now it turns over from the key. I put a test light on the wire going from the coil to the distributor and the spark was inconsistent. I gapped it with a brass feeler at .008. Everything is tightened and grounded. What could be causing this lack of spark?
 
OK, now put your meter on the coil + and while watching meter, crank the engine USING THE KEY. You should get a reading very close to battery voltage. Battery voltage while cranking should be NO LESS than 10.5 volts.

A better way of doing this is to measure the voltage drop DIRECTLY. The way to do this is clip one probe of the meter to coil + , and the other directly to the battery.

WHILE the engine is turning over WITH the key in start, you should read NO MORE that 1/2 volt drop

If the voltage looks OK, you might have a lot of wear in the distributor, or a bad pickup coil in the distributor. A recent conversation with a tune-up guy claims that these things evidently lose enough magnetism that they get intermittent.
 
I got it to run!! The distributor cap was really worn so I cleaned it up a bit and found that I was 180 out on it. I switched it around and it fired up. Thanks a ton 67Dart273 for all of the help, it was exactly what I needed.
 
!!! GREAT !!! Just in time to "cruise the gut." Spent 4 years A Miramar in the '70's
 
Alright, I got the car running, but it doesn't want to run. The engine backfires intermittently out of the Carb, has a thumping noise (similar to a dead cylinder), the ampmeter reads at +40 while its running, and it doesn't want to idle. The Carb has been rebuilt, it is a Holley Spreadbore. Fuel tank was replaced with a clean one, gas is good. I used a smoker to look for vacuum leaks and there aren't any. I've been chasing this for awhile now. Any ideas?
 
You need to fix the charging system PRONTO because you can damage "stuff" as it is obviously running overvoltage. (Or the battery has a real dead cell.)

Check the charging voltage with a meter on the battery

I'd bet it's REAL high, goes higher with RPM

Pull the plug off the regulator and see if it STOPS charging. If not, you have a wiring problem, or a problem with the alternator, or the wrong alternator

If it stops charging, stop the engine, turn the key to "run" and measure the voltage at the blue wire in the regulator connector. Compare this to battery voltage accurately.

Another way to do this is place one probe into the blue wire terminal at the regulator plug, the other on the battery positive. Accurately read the voltage which should be low, the lower the better, zero would be perfect.

Suspect a ground problem at the regulator. Hook the system up, start the engine, and.....

place one probe on the battery NEGATIVE post, and the other on the regulator case. Be sure to "stab" through the paint/ chrome. Again you are looking for a very low reading. Anything over .2V (two TENTHS of a volt) is too much, and shows a ground problem between the battery and regulator.
 
Alright, I checked the voltage between the regulator and battery and it was .5v. When I start the car and run it for a little bit, the ammeter reads +40 then slowly goes down to +20.
 
Now I adjusted the timing and my ammeter reads at +40. It stays pegged and doesn't come down at all. Isn't the timing completely unrelated to this?
 
You may have an intermittent, or a bad battery, hard to say.

Do you think your battery is "up?" It might just be "that much dead?"

But I asked you to also check the charging voltage, IE the voltage at the battery while running.

At this point I think I might be inclined to scare up a temporary "known good" battery (??out of your wife's car??) and substitute it long enough to find out if you have a battery or charging problem

The .5 V for now is OK
 
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