Gotta build ANOTHER engine.

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the other reason you degree the cam is to optimize its operation. Most cams have designed installation centerline, which may have no or little relation to the timing gear marks, especially when the timing set is manufactured by a different entity. I don't know about your particular cam manufacturer, but MP cams have a recommended installation centerline. It varies from cam design to cam design but it can be 2 degrees advanced, or 4 degrees advanced, whatever.
 
toolmanmike said:
Looks like you better hook up the degree wheel. Just sayin'
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I plan on it next time. Too late for this engine. I lined up the small crank dot with the dot on the cam gear. Which SHOULD be correct assuming the cam and all is made correctly, right? Or do you still see something wrong? I'm trying to learn.
 
1994redram said:
I re-timed it. Is that correct now?

I think the saying is "im a day late and $3,000 dollars short".
View attachment 1715285053
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That's a bunch better.

If you ever build a chrysler SB or BB, if the crank keyway isn't pointing in line with the number 1 cylinder, roughly towards 1:30 on a clock, when lining up the dots, something is wrong.
 
And as a side note....as shown in your photo...you are on Number 6 firing.....
 
This is a surprisingly common mistake.......
You’re not the first to do it..... and won’t be the last.

I’m sure that somewhere in the world, someone is making the same mistake....... right about........now.
 
70aarcuda said:
And as a side note....as shown in your photo...you are on Number 6 firing.....
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Haha, I knew that. I thought I would be slick and time it and all on the first rebuild. I wanted it to fire up perfectly like on TV. I quickly found out I was 180° out on the ignition timing. I made a mental note the the crank was top dead center, but the cam wasn't top dead firing on #1.
 
20190203_194058.jpg


Did not notice the second key way before.
 
rustycowll69 said:
there's some guy/business doing 408 crate motors I've seen mentioned several times on this site. He seems to have some loyal clients, who claim he makes a good motor, good power, that lives. I can't recall the name offhand, I think he was located in the midwest. I'm sure someone else on this forum can come up with the name.
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If you are referring to MRL Performance, he is closed...
 
Cool pics, what an oversight though.
Always degree, they can be as much as 8 degree off on the old grinds. Some are spot on. Clay checking valve clearance is always good with big lift cams and at the very least, roll your motors over by hand as you assemble them.Too many people get ahead of themselves and find it doesn't even spin or parts are missing.

Good luck next time.
 
We did same thing with crank gear orientation. We had it timed correct cam at 12, crank at 12, tdc #1 compression. But when we rolled over by hand to set valves, there was piston to valve interference. It was on a stand and we bent 2 or 3 valves! I didnt reef on it, valves bent very easily.
Took a "discussion" on here to figure out crank gear had multiple slots for alignment. As mentioned above, rotate as you go.
 
On an SBM, the easy way to time the cam, is to put the #1 piston at exactlyTDCexactly.. Then rotate the cam to put it on split overlap exactly. Then without moving either crank or cam, slip on the pre-timed sprocket and chain set. If it doesn't fit, use a different crank slot until it does. If either cam or crank moves, start over. It is permissible to advance the CAM up to 4 degrees for most cams, thumper-types not included, to get the initialization done.
From this point you are within a couple of degrees of perfect. Now you can install the degree wheel and fine-tune it.
I've been doing it like that on everything that runs a chain, for IDK well over 4 decades. The initialization works on gear drives and Desmodromic too.
After you get this done, you will want to rotate the crank one full turn, so #1 is now at TDC-compression and ready for the distributor.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
Cool pics, what an oversight though.
Always degree, they can be as much as 8 degree off on the old grinds. Some are spot on. Clay checking valve clearance is always good with big lift cams and at the very least, roll your motors over by hand as you assemble them.Too many people get ahead of themselves and find it doesn't even spin or parts are missing.

Good luck next time.
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an acquaintance of mine, was assembling a gen2 Hemi. He was trying to do it fast and not really thinking about what he was doing. The pistons are extensively domed with huge valve notches, and the valves are not arranged in a line like a usual Mopar wedge. He managed to put several pistons in backwards, just bolted on the heads and when he tried to throw the rocker assemblies on he bent some brand new valves. You really need to pay attention to details when building an engine, especially expensive, high performance ones.
 
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rustycowll69 said:
an acquaintance of mine, was assembling a gen2 Hemi. He was trying to do it fast and not really thinking about what he was doing. The pistons are extensively domed with huge valve notches, and the valves are not arranged in a line like a usual Mopar wedge. He managed to put several pistons in backwards, just bolted on the heads and when he tried to throw the rocker assemblies on he bent some brand new valves. You really need to pay attention to details when building an engine, especially expensive, high performance ones.
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I was initially getting p-v contact with my build but that was due to the lifters being fully pumped up and the pushrods being slightly too long, once I got shorter pushrods I could assemble the rockers and slowly rotate the engine so the spring pressure would bleed-down the lifters.

Wouldn't spinning the oil pump pump the lifters back up? I've also been searching around and i've seen a couple people mention they ran cams slightly bigger than mine on a stock Magnum short block with no P-V clearance issues.

I guess if I really want to get this right I gotta hit the junkyard and grab 2 more lifters to convert into solid testers... but then i'll need shorter pushrods too to take out the .090" or so of preload...?
 
MOPEkidD-3 said:
I was initially getting p-v contact with my build but that was due to the lifters being fully pumped up and the pushrods being slightly too long, once I got shorter pushrods I could assemble the rockers and slowly rotate the engine so the spring pressure would bleed-down the lifters.

Wouldn't spinning the oil pump pump the lifters back up? I've also been searching around and i've seen a couple people mention they ran cams slightly bigger than mine on a stock Magnum short block with no P-V clearance issues.

I guess if I really want to get this right I gotta hit the junkyard and grab 2 more lifters to convert into solid testers.
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I've never worked with dialing a Magnum engine, but I used to change the tip of my dial indicator to a flat tip, and place it on the top edge of the hydraulic lifter. You could also just use a solid lifter, or they make tools that slip into the bore like a lifter to make it easier to dial indicate. Goodson sells them, I believe .
 
rustycowll69 said:
I've never worked with dialing a Magnum engine, but I used to change the tip of my dial indicator to a flat tip, and place it on the top edge of the hydraulic lifter. You could also just use a solid lifter, or they make tools that slip into the bore like a lifter to make it easier to dial indicate. Goodson sells them, I believe .
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Oh i'm talking about checking actual piston-valve clearance, I already degree-d the cam with a degree wheel using a dial indicator on the edge of the lifter just like you describe and it came out spot-on with the 0 advance keyway on the crank sprocket, I made sure I was lining up the correct dots on the sprockets too. Cam is a custom-grind hydraulic roller from Racer Brown.
 
MOPEkidD-3 said:
Oh i'm talking about checking actual piston-valve clearance, I already degree-d the cam with a degree wheel using a dial indicator on the edge of the lifter just like you describe and it came out spot-on with the 0 advance keyway on the crank sprocket, I made sure I was lining up the correct dots on the sprockets too. Cam is a custom-grind hydraulic roller from Racer Brown.
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of course there are light v. springs, you can use and you can "map out" your clearances, and/or make a spread sheet to track the clearances before and after the critical valve events. I've never assembled anything pushing the envelope enough(over 0.500" lift) to warrant doing it. It can actually be quite a complex problem, because there are so many variables involved. I don't know how you could do it with hydraulic lifters, unless maybe you temporarily ran a pair of solid lifters and adjustable pushrods to check each cylinder. It would be pretty time consuming to do, unless you just used the clay method.
That said, if you are pushing the envelope with big valves, pop-up pistons, high lift or big duration cams, high compression, etc, it is a very important and necessary procedure.
 
1994redram said:
I plan on it next time. Too late for this engine. I lined up the small crank dot with the dot on the cam gear. Which SHOULD be correct assuming the cam and all is made correctly, right? Or do you still see something wrong? I'm trying to learn.
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Yeah, the issue is that there dots and triangles and squares by the various keyways in the crank sprocket, which are used to indicate how the timing is advanced, retarded, etc., by using that particular keyway. But those symbols by the keyways are to be ignored when 'aligning the dots'.

As you show it 're-timed' is on the money, as far as 'aligning the dots' goes; the hollow dot on the valley between teeth on the crank sprocket is lined up right below the cam sprocket dot. As has been said, that is where you start and then you check timing with the degree wheel to make sure it is very close to the proper ICL (and to make adjustments if it is not). You also make sure that some goofed up marking or keyway machining is not causing more timing havoc ; that is rare but not unknown.
 
nm9stheham said:
Yeah, the issue is that there dots and triangles and squares by the various keyways in the crank sprocket, which are used to indicate how the timing is advanced, retarded, etc., by using that particular keyway. But those symbols by the keyways are to be ignored when 'aligning the dots'.

As you show it 're-timed' is on the money, as far as 'aligning the dots' goes; the hollow dot on the valley between teeth on the crank sprocket is lined up right below the cam sprocket dot. As has been said, that is where you start and then you check timing with the degree wheel to make sure it is very close to the proper ICL (and to make adjustments if it is not). You also make sure that some goofed up marking or keyway machining is not causing more timing havoc ; that is rare but not unknown.
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I personally hate all those machined marks. Make it zero and go from there..... The idea of plug and play is assuming the intake centerline is correct at 0. It just creates problems like this and the OP ain't the first one to ride this horse....

JW
 
Even if you don't use a degree wheel the easy way to check is turn it to TDC overlap should be one opening and one closing if it's not at TDC you need to recheck.
 
The best advice don't rush when building engines and if it can be measured do it. If it doesn't run right at least you will really know first hand what you have.
 
furrystump said:
The best advice don't rush when building engines and if it can be measured do it. If it doesn't run right at least you will really know first hand what you have.
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Lesson learned. I’ll take my time and learn how to degree a cam correctly next time. I’ve timed several small block Mopar’s including this engine with that timing set. I just wasn't paying attention and screwed it up. I checked coil bind, retainer to guide clearance, main and rod clearance, etc. I just didn't degree it due to lack of knowledge how.
 
there was a detailed procedure given in the Direct Connection Racing Manual, that's how I learned how. What is nice, there, is that they explain why you do everything, too. If you Google it, you might get an excerpt online.
I'm pretty sure YouTube has something, but it may not be mopar specific
 
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