identify this broken off boss that was jamming the clutch fork

[scudzuki]

As the title states, I found this broken off aluminum boss behind the clutch fork in my 72 Dart with 4 speed trans. Tried to identify it by looking at pix online.
It sure looks important.
There's some witness marks on the outside of the "D" that suggest it is for locating another part.
There's a big fracture on one side that is old and a fresh fracture that let it loose.
Of course I got the car this way; the more I dig into it the more horror stories I find to clean up.
Thanks.

 

[Professor Fate]

SWAG:
Looks like it might be a locating hole for a dowel pin- check the engine to bellhousing mating area to see if it may have been forced together without being aligned, breaking that piece off the bellhousing...
It appears to be aluminum, so that narrows it down a bit.
A ruler or some object (a penny, for example) to give it some scale would be helpful too.

 

[scudzuki]

SWAG:
Looks like a locating hole for a dowel pin- check the engine to bellhousing mating area to see if it may have been forced together without being aligned, breaking that piece off the bellhousing...

Thanks.
Doesn't seem to affect the clutch linkage, thankfully, it feels great now that I completely rebuilt it.
I better check the bellhousing to motor screws, though, I've found a bunch of loose fasteners so far in my journey.
Whoever worked on the car in past was not very detail oriented.

 

[sr71mopar]

Looks almost like the nose of the starter.

 

[Professor Fate]

Looks almost like the nose of the starter.

Yeah- good call!

 

[scudzuki]

The boss is from the nose of a band new Powermaster mini starter. The seller installed it then didn't bother to tighten the bolts... which I discovered when it stopped turning the engine over. I got the correct length grade 8 bolts when I discovered why it stopped turning the engine over. It's only now that I see he FUBARed a perfectly good starter. Ugh. Thought about trying to weld it back on, but it's cast AL and so probably will be too dirty to weld, plus I'd have to make a fixture to locate the boss. Hopefully it lines up close enough when it goes back in.

 

[Professor Fate]

The boss is from the nose of a band new Powermaster mini starter. The seller installed it then didn't bother to tighten the bolts... which I discovered when it stopped turning the engine over. I got the correct length grade 8 bolts when I discovered why it stopped turning the engine over. It's only now that I see he FUBARed a perfectly good starter. Ugh. Thought about trying to weld it back on, but it's cast AL and so probably will be too dirty to weld, plus I'd have to make a fixture to locate the boss. Hopefully it lines up close enough when it goes back in.

You need that boss- it not only locates the starter in the bellhousing, but it supports the end of the Bendix shaft.
If you can't weld it back on, contact Powermaster and see if they will sell you a new nose piece.
If it's based on the Mopar mini starter, you might be able to use something like this:
NOSE CONE FRAME for MINI STARTER MOPAR DODGE PLYMOUTH (HOUSING only for repair) | eBay

 

[scudzuki]

You need that boss- it not only locates the starter in the bellhousing, but it supports the end of the Bendix shaft.
If you can't weld it back on, contact Powermaster and see if they will sell you a new nose piece.
If it's based on the Mopar mini starter, you might be able to use something like this:
NOSE CONE FRAME for MINI STARTER MOPAR DODGE PLYMOUTH (HOUSING only for repair) | eBay

It does not support the end of the bendix shaft in this starter.
The hole would be machined or at least have witness marks if the shaft entered it, and it has neither.
Nonetheless if the nose cone you linked will fit the Powermaster starter I'll install it, thanks.

 

[AJ/FormS]

It does not support the end of the bendix shaft in this starter.

That's what I thought as well. but IDK

 

[Dave999]

you can run those denso style starters without that end part. many conversions cut it off altogether, replace the entire end plate and snout with a customer machined and clockable mounting or need the starter to be shimmed forward 1/8 - 1/4 inch, meaning it doesn't register in the bore anyway.

that part just fills a space that the original chrysler part very much depended on and which the newer denso mini style does not.

fine unless of course you have a particularly wild combo with huge compression on a sheet metal bellhousing that deforms and twists under the effort.

attached same denso starter configuration different end plate and mounting for a different car still the same starter..... different mounting holes different casting shape, same starter




Dave

 

[scudzuki]

you can run those denso style starters without that end part. many conversions cut it off altogether, replace the entire end plate and snout with a customer machined and clockable mounting or need the starter to be shimmed forward 1/8 - 1/4 inch, meaning it doesn't register in the bore anyway.

that part just fills a space that the original chrysler part very much depended on and which the newer denso mini style does not.

fine unless of course you have a particularly wild combo with huge compression on a sheet metal bellhousing that deforms and twists under the effort.

attached same denso starter configuration different end plate and mounting for a different car still the same starter..... different mounting holes different casting shape, same starter




Dave

Agreed. The end cone that Professor linked looks like the same casting that was on the starter so I'm going that route first. The raised ring on the flange that locates the starter on the billet flanges is only semicircular on the cast end cones so it won't establish the gear engagement precisely. I must have gotten lucky when I bolted it back in after the nose was already broken off since it worked fine after, but I'd like to fix it right.

 

[MMissile]

Denso is the only way to go. I've never had one fail, but have always had a new-spare in the race-trailer and garage.

 

[Dave999]

One of the issues that the spigot end does solve is that the denso mini starter was used on a couple of 90s models as standard equipment. one of the 2 mounting holes was a different size on some of them and in the orginal application the stud or bolt for that hole fitted perfectly but on others it didn't.

when it comes to fitting them to everything else. most if not all of the end castings are made with the bigger hole, but not all combinations of transmission bellhousing use the bigger stud or bolt.

the spigot end seated into the depression in the bell is a sure fire way to get it in the right place
if the end doesn't fit properly into the hole in the bell the starter feels like it is fitted but one of the mounting lugs sits proud of the bellhousing face, which of course you can't see in some installs.
that coupled with the fact that some v8 block castings have a casting mark or boss that needs to be ground flat to fit the starter, otherwise part of its body hits it, leads to quite a few being put in slightly squint and the end castings either snap or one of the mounting lugs snaps off.

you can get a bushing that will help mount a big hole stater or a small bolt/stud bell housing.
however when all is said and done. if the flat face of the starter in against the flat face of the bellhousing flange,and the side of the end casting of the starter aligns with the curvature of the opening in the bellhousing, its not far off, in fact its probably pretty damn right.

If you have an odd combo of converter/ring gear/flywheel or adapter/bellhousing/ pinion style. Then mancini racing does starter shims to move it forward in the car.

Dave

 

[scudzuki]

One of the issues that the spigot end does solve is that the denso mini starter was used on a couple of 90s models as standard equipment. one of the 2 mounting holes was a different size on some of them and in the orginal application the stud or bolt for that hole fitted perfectly but on others it didn't.

when it comes to fitting them to everything else. most if not all of the end castings are made with the bigger hole, but not all combinations of transmission bellhousing use the bigger stud or bolt.

the spigot end seated into the depression in the bell is a sure fire way to get it in the right place
if the end doesn't fit properly into the hole in the bell the starter feels like it is fitted but one of the mounting lugs sits proud of the bellhousing face, which of course you can't see in some installs.
that coupled with the fact that some v8 block castings have a casting mark or boss that needs to be ground flat to fit the starter, otherwise part of its body hits it, leads to quite a few being put in slightly squint and the end castings either snap or one of the mounting lugs snaps off.

you can get a bushing that will help mount a big hole stater or a small bolt/stud bell housing.
however when all is said and done. if the flat face of the starter in against the flat face of the bellhousing flange,and the side of the end casting of the starter aligns with the curvature of the opening in the bellhousing, its not far off, in fact its probably pretty damn right.

If you have an odd combo of converter/ring gear/flywheel or adapter/bellhousing/ pinion style. Then mancini racing does starter shims to move it forward in the car.

Dave

I did notice the PM starter has a larger hole one emd of the flange.
I figured if the nose casting I ordered won't fit the motor I'll make a bushing for the larger hole.
I have a lather (and a mill and a CNC mill and TiG welder) so I can fab a few things.

 

[Dave999]

just remembered when you pull it apart the shaft has a ball bearing down the inside
don't loose it

but there is nothing particularly challenging in there, can't remember whats necessary to swap housings, if the pinion need to come off drive the snap ring cover off
pull off the snap ring, small screw driver then pliers, but don't over stretch.
denso used to have pinion swap details on one of there many sites

it pays to have a new snap ring cover and snap ring. and that internally splined washer and small spring also have a habit of trying to escape

Dave

 

[scudzuki]

just remembered when you pull it apart the shaft has a ball bearing down the inside
don't loose it

but there is nothing particularly challenging in there, can't remember whats necessary to swap housings, if the pinion need to come off drive the snap ring cover off
pull off the snap ring, small screw driver then pliers, but don't over stretch.
denso used to have pinion swap details on one of there many sites

it pays to have a new snap ring cover and snap ring. and that internally splined washer and small spring also have a habit of trying to escape

Dave

I got impatient (the new nose cone isn't expected until Monday and I got the TB FI and everything else ready to go) so I made a bushing and welded it in the oversize hole. Bolted it up and it engages and turns the motor over without any fanfare. Weld is shitty 'cause I didn't clean the casting well enough but it's not gonna fall out.