Lets build a CHEAP(!!!!!!!) bracket motor!

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YY1 said:
So all those guys that say in other threads (some may be on this thread as well)

"no substitute for displacement"

...might be wrong?
Click to expand...
OK, I hate to say this but I’m still god danm posting hell so for the 4 attempt to post a GR reply,,,, the F’in short GD version....

Not necessarily. While there is no replacement for displacement it is also how the displacement is done. An otherwise equally built up 340 vs 360 will produce very similar results with the 360 peaking early in the rpm range and then falling off vs the 340 which will leak at a higher rpm and hold onto the power longer.

You play the different power curves differently with gearing in the trans, rear and tire size.

One day I’d like to win lotto and build 3 - 360 engines.
1 - regular 360
2 - A 340 race block since it could handle the overbore needed to make a 360 with the stock 340 stroke.
3 - a 340 block and the crank below. A 3.45 stroke for the 355 cube race engine.

Why? Just to show how lier is effected by stroke at the same displacement.
4AE93506-3BBA-4004-A5B0-8DAD4FE32438.jpeg
 
@YY1 You dislike the statement of bigger is better and find it false somewhere?
 
I was thinking more of a 440 versus a 318 for the displacement discussion.
Wow, did we hijack and destroy Gregs thread! lol.
I'll stop getting off track.
 
I dislike the statement that there is no replacement for displacement.

There are several documented replacements, like forced induction for one.

There is never a real world case of "all other things being equal".

In theory, yes, but in reality, no.

BTW- you proved the point by explaining about the 340 with it's larger bore.

I'm agreeing with you!
 
YY1 said:
I dislike the statement that there is no replacement for displacement.

There are several documented replacements, like forced induction for one.

There is never a real world case of "all other things being equal".

In theory, yes, but in reality, no.

BTW- you proved the point by explaining about the 340 with it's larger bore.

I'm agreeing with you!
Click to expand...
I understand your agreeing.
Forced induction changes the game.
Do it to one, a similar result should happen to the other, right? IDK, I never owned a supercharger.
Again, one day lotto will come in....
 
Gentlmencan we go back to cheap bracket recipes?


Since the original opening post never stated a price limit, only a goal of cheap, how about this one?
One nice set of 8 400 stock pistons, one cheap 4.15 stroke crank, one set stock 440 rods. Install in 440 block. Result is 491 cubes. Find one pair of stock heads and bowl port them, back cut the valves the cheap way. 509 hyd cam with stock rockers and pushrods. Stock intake and TQ carb. 450 hp and no need for a stall converter!
 
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gregsdart said:
Gentlmencan we go back to cheap bracket recipes?
Click to expand...
A bracket racing car does not need to be fast but only consistent. You can race a 100% stock engine and car in bracket racing... and win. However, going fast is more fun! The op stated he was looking for 400 hp and that's the issue...how to build a engine to make 400 hp on the cheap.
 
Pretty sure, as rumblefish stated earlier, a "simple" cam and intake change in an otherwise stock (and not necessarily rebuilt) 5.9 will get you there if not awfully dang close.

That's what DC marketed as the 380/385 HP crate engine, and also as stated- all that I've seen record of dynoed at 385 or more.

For the record, the 300 HP crate setup was the factory stock 5.9 cam.

...and again we're at simple math to deduct the 20% gross to net conversion and arrive close to the 245 net HP rating of the 5.9 in my '00 Dakota R/T.
 
My one experiance with building a magnum was my 408 stroker. I was pushed towards the single plane intake but chose the airgap in hopes of making the motor a touch more civil for off idle and cruise. It made over 500 hp at 5700 rpm with that manifold. My guess is the airgap would be possibly a better choice for a lower power build.
 
Thats what ive got going together for the wifes aspen to bracket race.

stock 5.9, new rings and bearings, .028hg, home ported heads with vj,1.6 chevy rockers, 218/224 .528/.536 110 cam, airgap intake, 750DP, 1-5/8 hedman headers.

its going into a gutted 80 aspen with a 904 and 3200 stall with 3.73 gears. well see how it does this summer
 
gregsdart said:
Gentlmencan we go back to cheap bracket recipes?


Since the original opening post never stated a price limit, only a goal of cheap, how about this one?
One nice set of 8 400 stock pistons, one cheap 4.15 stroke crank, one set stock 440 rods. Install in 440 block. Result is 491 cubes. Find one pair of stock heads and bowl port them, back cut the valves the cheap way. 509 hyd cam with stock rockers and pushrods. Stock intake and TQ carb. 450 hp and no need for a stall converter!
Click to expand...
Wait, you said "Could i make 400 hp with less than $1,000?" on the opening post.
 
Again, buy a running 100,000 mile 5.9 Durango with a bad transmission (trust me there are three on your local craigslist right now) for $800, and spend another 700 on the Magnum to car chassis conversion, carb, cam and intake.

I still say it can be done for $1500-ish
 
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gregsdart said:
To kill a little time and have some fun i propose we come up with a recipe for a truly cheap bracket motor. The only rules for the build are it must be a mopar v8 , make 400 hp minimum and all things like the core engine , parts and machining labor plus tax be tallied!
My idea;
Magnum 5.9.
Could i make 400 hp with less than $1,000?
Click to expand...

Assuming and hoping the mystery engine needs no machine work in the cylinders... and it is good to go....
Air cleaner $25 - ish
Summit Racing® Air Cleaners SUM-G30010B
Intake @ $220
Professional Products CrossWind Intake Manifolds 55026
Carb - 800 cfm remanufactured $464
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-18139
Headers @ 180
1970 DODGE DART Summit Racing® Headers SUM-G9040
Exhaust pipe @ 15 X 2 = $30
Summit Racing® Exhaust Tubing SUM-640025-1
Muffler @ 33 x 2 = $66
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-631125
Exhaust clamps @ $4 each X 6 = $24
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g4625-1
Muffler hangers 2 x 7 = $14
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wlk-35210
Complete engine gasket kit/Magnum
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-260-1723/make/dodge
Someone stated Oregon cam regrind @ $180
Unless you want a new cam... your looking at about double the cost, not included the the total tally below.
$1,203, oil, filter, gasket sealent and other sealent/chemicals not included.
Keeping the stock cam would bring you back to $1123. Now we’re down to $923.

Still not a bad quick shopping spree at Summit!
A classified hunt should result in good cost savings.
You could save a bunch with a FABO used AFB 600 carb instead of the Edelbrock reman @ there price. Even if you needed a gasket it and jetting kit you would be well ahead of the curve. You could save an easy $200.

I did drop the ball on a distributor. These can be found inexpensively. If you don’t mind taking them apart or learning them, a spring kit is a few dollars and this distributor is $41.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/make/dodge/engine-size/5-9l-360/engine-family/mopar-small-block-la/department/ignitions-electrical/part-type/distributors/price-range/20-50?N=price-range:20-50&SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending
Spark plug wires @ $32
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-867807/year/1970/make/dodge/model/dart

Going up $73 smackers... back to $996.

Then go back and search out @318willrun thread on his hyper tuned scorcher. Every thing is always in the tune, carb and distributor!

Keep hunting the classifieds for those great deals! Drop the price further!
Trade with a buddy. I did a CF clutch DF set up for a converter I needed to get something running now instead of later. Hell! Works for me!
(Makes me wonder about the final cost in adding a converter and gears.... and probably new sneakers after the upgrades, I’ll for surely need some sticky ones!)
 
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Very, VERY common to find cross hatching still in 150,000 mile Magnum bores.

That strongly suggests they don't need re-ringed, bored out, etc and can be run as is.
A more common issue is rod bearing knock.

I'd keep the Magnum exhaust manifolds as they flow great (esp the 1992 ones) and sound great, plus you shouldn't have steering or ground clearance issues like you will with $150 headers (plus you save the $150)
 
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rumblefish360 said:
Assuming and hoping the mystery engine needs no machine work in the cylinders... and it is good to go....
Air cleaner $25 - ish
Summit Racing® Air Cleaners SUM-G30010B
Intake @ $220
Professional Products CrossWind Intake Manifolds 55026
Carb - 800 cfm remanufactured $464
Edelbrock Thunder Series AVS Remanufactured Carburetors 18139
Headers @ 180
1970 DODGE DART Summit Racing® Headers SUM-G9040
Exhaust pipe @ 15 X 2 = $30
Summit Racing® Exhaust Tubing SUM-640025-1
Muffler @ 33 x 2 = $66
Summit Racing® Turbo Mufflers SUM-631125
Exhaust clamps @ $4 each X 6 = $24
Summit Racing® Muffler Clamps SUM-G4625-1
Muffler hangers 2 x 7 = $14
Walker Exhaust Hangers 35210
Complete engine gasket kit/Magnum
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-260-1723/make/dodge
Someone stated Oregon cam regrind @ $180
Unless you want a new cam... your looking at about double the cost, not included the the total tally below.
$1,203, oil, filter, gasket sealent and other sealent/chemicals not included.
Keeping the stock cam would bring you back to $1123. Now we’re down to $923.

Still not a bad quick shopping spree at Summit!
A classified hunt should result in good cost savings.
You could save a bunch with a FABO used AFB 600 carb instead of the Edelbrock reman @ there price. Even if you needed a gasket it and jetting kit you would be well ahead of the curve. You could save an easy $200.

I did drop the ball on a distributor. These can be found inexpensively. If you don’t mind taking them apart or learning them, a spring kit is a few dollars and this distributor is $41.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/make/dodge/engine-size/5-9l-360/engine-family/mopar-small-block-la/department/ignitions-electrical/part-type/distributors/price-range/20-50?N=price-range:20-50&SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending
Spark plug wires @ $32
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-867807/year/1970/make/dodge/model/dart

Going up $73 smackers... back to $996.

Then go back and search out @318willrun thread on his hyper tuned scorcher. Every thing is always in the tune, carb and distributor!

Keep hunting the classifieds for those great deals! Drop the price further!
Trade with a buddy. I did a CF clutch DF set up for a converter I needed to get something running now instead of later. Hell! Works for me!
(Makes me wonder about the final cost in adding a converter and gears.... and probably new sneakers after the upgrades, I’ll for surely need some sticky ones!)
Click to expand...
All that plus the motor like I saw for 250, and away you go.
Do these just bolt up to a 904/727 transmission?
 
YY1 said:
Very, VERY common to find cross hatching still in 150,000 mile Magnum bores.

That strongly suggests they don't need re-ringed, bored out, etc and can be run as is.
A more common issue is rod bearing knock.

I'd keep the Magnum exhaust manifolds as they flow great (esp the 1992 ones) and sound great, plus you shouldn't have steering or ground clearance issues like you will with $150 headers (plus you save the $150)
Click to expand...
Dany's Magnum had 200K with crosshatch still visible.
We did NOT ring it,and with thin head gaskets and EQ318B's it had 5% leakage.
Even on the cyl with a new standard piston and the used rings off the old piston on it!!!
20190717_110117.jpg
20190717_110117.jpg
 
ChuckDock said:
Wow, nice! The bottom end was ok as well? no rod/bearing issues?
Click to expand...
Rods/mains fine. plasti gauged on the wide end with new standard bearings. So some crank wear.
Running 20W50 because of that.
Cam bearings were de laminating/falling apart!!!
So it got rods/mains and cam bearings.
Our thought was the factory low tension rings were already seated to the cylinders, so why replace them and run the risk of having the new rings not seat?
It survived one season of brackets so far with no problems...
The plug shown has 8 hot laps at Edgewater on it..
20190516_135137.jpg
20190811_101158.jpg
 
ChuckDock said:
Wait, you said "Could i make 400 hp with less than $1,000?" on the opening post.
Click to expand...
the $1000 coment was just a question about one direction a guy could go. I didn't intend it to become the only way to build a 400+ hp bracket motor. Also, being a post about bracket motors, if you don't need it in a race car, you don't need to include it in the cost. Stuff like mufflers, aircleaners, etc.
Ways to save money IMHO would be things like used plugs and plug wires, cap, rotor, etc. Much $$ could be saved at a U pull it yard! Waterpump can be driven by an old heater fan on a home built bracket. Spot weld a pulley to the stock magnum waterpump and use a furnace blower belt like i did years ago. I am glad to hear some great ideas on how to accomplish the goal for cheap.
 
@gregsdart , I hear ya! This, “On the cheap route” is what I kind of did o my 5.9 for my ‘79 Magnum. It worked out to a bit more than I listed for a few reasons outside the engine. I did need a B&M adapters flexplate. It is a good deal all around.

Today, prices have gone up and alternative source of “Cheap” would have to be explored, since items like the intake have gone up a good bit over the last 5-7 years.

A used Chink intake, Edelbrock carb, cheap distributor & Summit headers are a inexpensive item that would work just fine. It could easily leave enough $$$ room for a good roller cam.
 
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