* Major Rant! *

[mcode]

So you're saying in this case, American workers can shove $#!+ out the door just like the Chinese??? Tsk, tsk, tsk. Just messing with you. Everyone knows that Cardone is crap.


And for all you China haters, I hope I don't read about any of you building a stroker motor for your Mopar. As you very well know, about 99% of those stroker cranks and rods are forged in China and then sent to the States for final machining. But wait, you hardly ever hear about these cranks and rods failing. The American machining techniques must turn those pos Chinese forging into a reliable product. That must be it...... or..... is it that the Chinese can build a good product when given good specifications? The Chinese will build to whatever specs they are given. If some cheap-*** engineer specifies cheap-*** materials you get a cheap-*** product that won't last.


Wylde1.

PS. Asian poontang still rates #1 in my book. :downtown: :thumbup:

I suspect it's more of someone holding their feet to the fire than the chinese willingly providing a quality product.

 

[needsaresto]

Nuthin wrong with cardone. Who do you think supplies napa(cardone brand) and the rest of the jobber stores? In fact my parts guy and I looked at returns in thier entire store system. NONE were cardone returns..the Fenco line was much worse for this so they got rid of it.

I do plan on inspecting the cardone product when it gets here.If it's not up to snuff,well neither was the new china junk. I can always sleeve my original master.

As for chinese crap,well YOU buy it seeing how your the expert and always seem to know more than anyone else.

My stroker is using an original crank and rods,to hell with chinese ****.

 

[Wylde1]

Nuthin wrong with cardone. Who do you think supplies napa(cardone brand) and the rest of the jobber stores? In fact my parts guy and I looked at returns in thier entire store system. NONE were cardone returns..the Fenco line was much worse for this so they got rid of it.

I do plan on inspecting the cardone product when it gets here.If it's not up to snuff,well neither was the new china junk. I can always sleeve my original master.

As for chinese crap,well YOU buy it seeing how your the expert and always seem to know more than anyone else.

My stroker is using an original crank and rods,to hell with chinese ****.

Sorry dude, but Cardone has a very long record of crap. Best of luck with your purchase.

Scat, Callies and a host of other big name companies get most of their cranks from China. They do the finish machining in house - probably because they can get better tolerances that way (just a guess).

I'm no expert - far from it. But how much stroke can you get from an original crank and rods? :scratch:


Wylde1.

 

[Wylde1]

I suspect it's more of someone holding their feet to the fire than the chinese willingly providing a quality product.

No doubt in my mind that's probably the case.


Wylde1.

 

[needsaresto]

Sorry dude, but Cardone has a very long record of crap. Best of luck with your purchase.

Scat, Callies and a host of other big name companies get most of their cranks from China. They do the finish machining in house - probably because they can get better tolerances that way (just a guess).

I'm no expert - far from it. But how much stroke can you get from an original crank and rods? :scratch:


Wylde1.

Well I guess Napa better stop selling brake parts right now based on your expert opinion. Cardone is NAPA brand..

I really dont think it matters what brand I buy, YOU would automatically declare it crap. Nope I dont value your opinion at all.:flower:

 

[inkjunkie]

Please don't think that everything that comes out of the NorthWest is wrote. I live in Eastern Wa and our stuff is pretty rust free. This area is compared to Arizona.QUOTE] I am an hour or so west of Spokane. In my opinion, this area is very much like the high Desert of Arizona, very similar to the Prescott area. 2 or 3 weeks of high temps (mid-high 90's), some rain fall, some snow and a few real cold days in the winter. I lived in AZ for 19 years or so......

 

[seabee]

A lot of China's manufacturing and cost efficiency is due to lack of what we in America demand in the workplace and environment. If people demand fair wages, basic humanities, and environmentally safe practices then turn around and fill there entire house with stuff produced in a country that does not embody these very beliefs...........

Get rid of minimum wage laws and let the pollutants and sweatshops begin. Then put "Made in USA Polluting Sweatshop" stickers on all the merchandise. If it cost $1 less than the stuff made in China you bet your a$$ Americans would buy it up regardless of the sticker.

Bottom line. Money will speak louder than ethics every time.

 

[MachineMan]

Scat, Callies and a host of other big name companies get most of their cranks from China. They do the finish machining in house - probably because they can get better tolerances that way (just a guess).
Wylde1.

Please provide a link to any forging house capable of forging quality crankshafts left here in the U.S.


Regulations seems to have caused all of them to close their doors.

Scat lost a ton, (literally), of forging dies when the forging house they used was closed down.

The mills producing quality steel here in the U.S. have suffered the same fate.

Scat turned to England for quality steel, and Germany for quality forgings.

When the forging house in Germany decided that 1000 pcs. was too small a quantity, and wanted to make 5000 pcs. the minimum run.... where do you go from there?

I guess you think they should have closed their doors too.


Instead, they gritted their teeth and found a company that uses quality steel and good methods to produce good forgings.

Where do you think the current production of crankshafts for Chrysler, GM, Ford, and the rest of the auto makers come from?

Environmentalist and regulators have pulled the guts from this country.

Many of the companies were models of how to do things the right way,.... but between the unions, green people, and regulators, the cost of staying in business meant being in the red year after year.


Please provide a link to any forging house capable of forging crankshafts left here in the U.S.
.

 

[slantsixdan]

I suspect it's more of someone holding their feet to the fire than the chinese willingly providing a quality product.

Exactly right. I have worked as a product development manager, and while it is possible to get good quality out of places like China and India, it is not yet possible without constant and very vigilant, intensive Western babysitting. Without it, specs get used as toilet paper, quality control gets laughed at as a quaint little Western joke, and specified materials are replaced with whatever the factory owner's brother-in-law's cousin can supply at a cheaper price. Samples come back with twenty different problems. You review each problem carefully with the factory rep (answer: "Yes, OK, we can fix, no problem!"). Next sample comes back with two of the original problems fixed, four of them worsened, fourteen of them unchanged and three new problems. Cycle repeats itself until the Western MBA says "Enough, just run it the way it is". Only a tiny fraction of the companies in those countries making whatever kind of widget you want made are even slightly capable of following a spec consistently, and even those companies will often say "Yes, yes, no problem" to absolutely anything asked of them, even if it is a physical impossibility. Not an exaggeration, that; one of my standard winnowing-out practices when I had to source something from India or China was to send candidate companies a physically impossible specification. Most companies said "Yes, yes, no problem, we can make for you, hundred percent quality, no problem." Only those few companies who said "We have some concerns about your specification" made it into my candidate pool. So that's number one. Number two, much of what Western companies do in the way of "quality control" is a pathetic joke of one kind or another. That's another (long) post for another time.

 

[MachineMan]

Much of what Western companies do in the way of "quality control" is a pathetic joke of one kind or another.

My Father worked for Lockheed Aircraft for 46 years as a
Quality Assurance Officer.

I myself worked as the Quality Assurance Manager of Amcor Industries, maker of safety related fasteners for the automotive industry.

(Any fastener that by it's failure could cause injury or loss of life to the operator)

All under the specifications of PQS 15-200

Dimensional, Destructive, and Non-Destructive Testing.

Right the way down to Salt Spray Test


I take what you said, "As a personal insult" to both my Father & myself.


Maybe you would like to re-phrase the above quote.
.

 

[Wylde1]

Number two, much of what Western companies do in the way of "quality control" is a pathetic joke of one kind or another.

That is soooooooo very, very true. Well at least for the one big fiber optics company I worked for.

I worked in the instrumentation department and some of the meters that we built cost anywhere from $20,000 to as much as $50,000. So for that price you would think there would be the highest of quality. End of quarter comes around and management wants to ship as much as they can out the door. There was unlimited overtime for everyone. Labour laws be damned, just get the stuff out the door. If we failed stuff in final calibration, management would fudge the numbers to put them in spec and ship the stuff out anyways. Nevermind the fact that they would forge my signature on the Certificate of Calibration. A month or two later the customer would return the meter on an RMA and that's when they would get recalibrated and if they failed would be repaired correctly. For the longest time we had a reputation for $#!+ products but we were basically the only game in town.

So why did management do this?? Because if they met or exceeded their quota they would get a HUGE BONUS on their pay. Quality never meant a thing. A huge bonus meant alot more. Greed. Pure and simple greed.



Wylde1.

 

[michformulaS]

I would agree he would. There are still attempts at pointing out the obvious risk in many decisions on quality but they are very often trumped by a decision of cost. The irony is that the cost of the failed product is not considered. I was in charge of the quality of electronic throttle controls at the time that Toyota sourced theirs. We did not get the contract due to to "cost". What is that cost now. A recent issue with a component that we make (not a safety item!) is showing failures in the field for another customer. A proposal was made to make this design robust for less than $0.15 a part but turned down by the OEM. Now what will be the cost? This is a major launch for a struggling North American based company on an engine that is going in just about every vehicle they make. I bet the PO'd customers will reach out to 100 more saying this companies come back isn't all it is cracked up to be....This is what will take down the perceived advantage we have right now over China.

 

[slantsixdan]

Maybe you would like to re-phrase the above quote.

Nope. Maybe you would like to read more carefully.

 

[MachineMan]

That is soooooooo very, very true. Well at least for the one big fiber optics company I worked for.

I worked in the instrumentation department and some of the meters that we built cost anywhere from $20,000 to as much as $50,000. So for that price you would think there would be the highest of quality. End of quarter comes around and management wants to ship as much as they can out the door. There was unlimited overtime for everyone. Labour laws be damned, just get the stuff out the door. If we failed stuff in final calibration, management would fudge the numbers to put them in spec and ship the stuff out anyways. Nevermind the fact that they would forge my signature on the Certificate of Calibration. A month or two later the customer would return the meter on an RMA and that's when they would get recalibrated and if they failed would be repaired correctly. For the longest time we had a reputation for $#!+ products but we were basically the only game in town.

So why did management do this?? Because if they met or exceeded their quota they would get a HUGE BONUS on their pay. Quality never meant a thing. A huge bonus meant alot more. Greed. Pure and simple greed.



Wylde1.

That is a story of flat out law breaking Greed.

That can happen in any country, any country where there is Greed.

So why you and that bearded guy lay it at the feet of " Westerners? "

Are you trying to say that odds are against something like this happening in the Philippines?

How about Russia?, Romania?, hell any country in Europe.

How about Brazil?, Argentina?, hell any country in South America.

How about the Middle East?

Asia?

Law Breaking Greed can happen anywhere.

The U.S. has some of the strictest quality standards in the world.


There is no system on earth that is Greed Proof.
.
.

 

[MoparMuscleGuy]

I own a small business and there are a few services I no longer offer because people were always complaining about the price. Now I get people calling and saying that they will not complain anymore about price, when they realize it was a bargain, after they tried to do it themselves, and I tell them sorry, I no longer offer that service.:grin: I may eventually offer these services again. I must say that this year is off to a great start. MMG

 

[slantsixdan]

So why you and that bearded guy lay it at the feet of "Westerners? "

Because, MachineMan, this present discussion is about how you do not get quality out of China without vigilant Western babysitting. And that means that when the Western babysitters fail to do their job (or simply don't exist), you don't get quality out of China, full stop.

If you're unable to understand that this is not a slam of the work you and your father did, but rather a tribute to its importance and a statement of the need for more people like you and your father, then your reading comprehension is poor. That ain't my problem.

 

[needsaresto]

All I know is every damn thing I ever got from china broke 10x faster than it should.Now I want stuff made not in china,but not really any choice out there. It's ALL made in china!

Machineman Im thinking my best option for a master cyl is to have my original sleeved!! At least it would be done right and not by chinese cheats.

 

[Wylde1]

All I know is every damn thing I ever got from china broke 10x faster than it should.Now I want stuff made not in china,but not really any choice out there. It's ALL made in china!

That's the sad reality of where things sit today. Example - I bought a couple of pedestal fans from Canadian tire. Beautiful looking fans. All the plastic housing and base was chrome plated. Paid all of $16 for each of them. After 1 summer of use both were seized up. On the other hand, my parents have a table-top fan that's over 40 years old. American made. The thing still works like the day they bought it. Ya get what ya pays for.

Machineman Im thinking my best option for a master cyl is to have my original sleeved!! At least it would be done right and not by chinese cheats.

That would be the better option. Stainless steel sleves would be the best option. Wait...... I know nothing and my opinion is worthless. Please disregard this post. :bootysha:


Wylde1.

 

[LH23H2R]

... and the stuff this is made in the U.S. is made by , uhhh ... "sick birds" , "sick Eagles" ...
you know , those "Ill Eagles" .
Their presence has done an incredible amount of damage to "our" economy ; lower the bar on wages , and leach off the government ( e.g. , welfare which the Working Class pays-into !!!! ) .

The other shitty thing is this : the vast-majority of metal(s) comes from god damned china !!!!!!!
So even IF that intake manifold / crank / rods says "Made in U.S.A." , its raw materials come from ding-dong china !
THANK YOU , ENVIRONMENTALISTS !!!!!

As far as A1 Cardone is concerned : I refer back to the "Ill Eagles" assertion . Yes , I've been to one of their plants ; not a single non-broken-English speaker to be found ...
... except in the office .

 

[MachineMan]

All I know is every damn thing I ever got from china broke 10x faster than it should.Now I want stuff made not in china,but not really any choice out there. It's ALL made in china!

Machineman Im thinking my best option for a master cyl is to have my original sleeved!! At least it would be done right and not by chinese cheats.

I agree.

We all know of "White Post", for a very long time they have done sleeving in Brass.

Better than a unit that can't be used.

Stainless is a great way to go.

I handle all the very off the wall stuff, for more common units.....


This place has done a "Great Deal" of that work.........

http://www.resleeve.com/sleeving.htm

Last I heard their return rate was less than 2%.

Their prices are reasonable.


If you have any questions let me know.
.

 

[needsaresto]

... and the stuff this is made in the U.S. is made by , uhhh ... "sick birds" , "sick Eagles" ...
you know , those "Ill Eagles" .
Their presence has done an incredible amount of damage to "our" economy ; lower the bar on wages , and leach off the government ( e.g. , welfare which the Working Class pays-into !!!! ) .

The other shitty thing is this : the vast-majority of metal(s) comes from god damned china !!!!!!!
So even IF that intake manifold / crank / rods says "Made in U.S.A." , its raw materials come from ding-dong china !
THANK YOU , ENVIRONMENTALISTS !!!!!

As far as A1 Cardone is concerned : I refer back to the "Ill Eagles" assertion . Yes , I've been to one of their plants ; not a single non-broken-English speaker to be found ...
... except in the office .

The really stupid thing is china has mostly coal fired electricity,so when the environmentalists forced industry out the door they made the pollution problem worse not better and made it a global problem!. China dont give a rats *** about the environment so why oh why dear god,would an environmentalist want that! I think it was mainly a push by shareholders that encouraged offshoreing. After all they would be the main beneficiaries of it via lowered labour and material costs.

 

[AMC PackRat]

Wow - this thread sure veered off into a strange (but interesting) direction. :happy1:

I worked QA for over 25 years in the machine tool industry before getting downsized. :sad1:

I think I'll let you guys go at it rather than adding more fuel, though - it's more entertaining that way. :roll:

 

[zigs]

No Zig...........

I understand, sorry.

A lot of the guys here know I lived in Auburn for 5 years, (45 minutes South of Seattle), I know Eastern Wash. is just the "opposite" of Western Wash.

It looks like Palmdale,(desert scrub brush, dry as a bone).

I meant no slam on you or yours, I was referring to the wet West side of Washington.

1979-1984 was some of the best years of my life, I made many friends and everyone shared what little they had.

"Best" people I ever met in my life.
.

No worries. I didn't know you lived in Wa before. I like the Kent ,Renton Auburn area. Just wouldn't want to live there.

 

[MachineMan]

No worries. I didn't know you lived in Wa before. I like the Kent ,Renton Auburn area. Just wouldn't want to live there.

Some of the best years of my life.

I lived in Auburn, and for over a year I worked in Renton.

There was stretches of unemployment, but I had more fun there broke then I ever had here working.

It was living in Auburn that I fell in with the Mopar crowd, check my welcome thread, you may know some of those guys.

Some of my best memories.
.

 

[Revhendo]

Please provide a link to any forging house capable of forging quality crankshafts left here in the U.S.


Regulations seems to have caused all of them to close their doors.

Scat lost a ton, (literally), of forging dies when the forging house they used was closed down.

The mills producing quality steel here in the U.S. have suffered the same fate.

Scat turned to England for quality steel, and Germany for quality forgings.

When the forging house in Germany decided that 1000 pcs. was too small a quantity, and wanted to make 5000 pcs. the minimum run.... where do you go from there?

I guess you think they should have closed their doors too.


Instead, they gritted their teeth and found a company that uses quality steel and good methods to produce good forgings.

Where do you think the current production of crankshafts for Chrysler, GM, Ford, and the rest of the auto makers come from?

Environmentalist and regulators have pulled the guts from this country.

Many of the companies were models of how to do things the right way,.... but between the unions, green people, and regulators, the cost of staying in business meant being in the red year after year.


Please provide a link to any forging house capable of forging crankshafts left here in the U.S.
.

The 4 inch arm for my 340 was from Mopar Performance. It was made by Scat. Failed horribly in the first 7 miles. (Didn't even get me home). Had it tested. It was too soft. Just sayin........