New cluster did not fix the dead Gauge issues HELP

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gdizzle

gdizzle

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ok round 2 for the 66 dodge dart
Engine rebuilt and is now running. I had replaced the cluster board with a new one from eBay. Also replaced the Voltage Limiter with a new one from Amazon. Turn indicators inside the dash are now flashing. But gas and temp are no go.
I had tested both gauges when i removed the cluster, with some D batteries and I got the gauges to move properly, so I think they are working. But nothing happens when I put them into the car.

I have also tested that I am getting fluctuating current at the temp sensor on the engine itself, and I am.

I assume that if the light indicators are flashing with my blinkers, then the cluster is grounded, correct? Or is it possible for the gauges to not be grounded, while the blinker indicators are working?

Also not working is any cluster illumination. I have replaced all bulbs.

I would really appreciate some step by step things I can do to get this new cluster to work properly. Fuses look good, and I have even replaced them. How can i determine I am geting power to the cluster ? also note: ammeter has been disconnected/bypassed. I am leaving that as is.

thanks guys.
 
Well "you should have" added a ground pigtail while you had it out LOL

Have you tried grounding the sender wire, then turning the key on? Gauge should IMMEDIATELY head toward hot / full.

It's even possible the new board has a problem. On my old boards I had to solder jumpers across the IVR contacts to the board traces

You simply have to check it all

Cluster needs grounded

IVR must have 12V to it. Gauges have to have sender continuity or a "test" ground at the sender wire
 
thanks for reply. The IVR sockets are tight, no wiggle. Could you give me an even more dumbed down explanation of how to ground the sending wire to see gauge jump up?
i assume I wouldnt want to hold it too long for fear of blowing/buring out the gauge, right?
As for cluster ground and pigtail, isnt the entire cluster grounded at any one point? Isnt there continuity on the entire board? or are there points at which ground is broken and looks for another mounting screw?
 
this is the new one BTW.
 

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gdizzle said:
this is the new one BTW.
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View attachment !!!!!grounding.jpg
typical 66 dart tiny grounds. you sure can't get enough of them for sure.
the red circles are the only ground point on that instrument cluster there are supposed to be 4 of them(yep your screw heads are "IT" and that isn't much to rely on for a 40+ year old car). especially on a "painted a zillion times" dashboard so all that grounds is the threads through thin metal. I pulled 5 layers of paint (one latex paint at that) off of my dashboard:glasses7:

View attachment DSCF3805.jpg


you can see my grounding wire sticking out the back of this picture, I also cheated and built a 12volt regulator to limit my current to 12volts for my LEDs also.

View attachment DSCF4162.jpg

plus most darts have the 4th tab broke off at some point or other. out of 4 clusters I only have one that has all 4 tabs on it.(the one you can't see in the first picture)

View attachment !!!ring and wire.jpg
I usually add this grounding wire to any one of the yellow screws circled and to the dashboard or brake pedal frame, one on the convertible top motor, one in the trunk for rear lighting (since I run LEDs back there they "like to be well grounded) and 2 extra in the engine compartment. 1 behind the headlight bucket for headlights/turn/parking and 1 braided to engine from the firewall.

oh and do the relay upgrade for your lights if you have not already done so. you WILL be pleased at how much better the voltage is at the bulbs and how much strain you take off the headlight switch..
umm hmmm ?I think the orange wire on the headlight switch is the dash illumination. Check the FSM to make sure, mine isn't near me right now.

plus as 67dart273 said you need to ground the end on the wire temporarily and see if the gauge moves. don't do it long, just enough to see if the wire is good to the gauge.
check the flat wire connectors that go over the pins also. mine were crusty and would give me problems till I "purple powere'd" them. It cleaned them up (and the wiring too!) really well. But I did have to "adjust" the pin connections a bit to make sure they stayed tight in the new pins. I had some old brads that was a little bit smaller then the pins to tighten too on the bottom of the connector and left the top tight to the plastic.
View attachment DSCF2720.jpg

If the gauge moves then check the ground to firewall or frame on the engine block, if that's good then check sender unit.
 
gdizzle said:
thanks for reply. The IVR sockets are tight, no wiggle. Could you give me an even more dumbed down explanation of how to ground the sending wire to see gauge jump up?
i assume I wouldnt want to hold it too long for fear of blowing/buring out the gauge, right?
As for cluster ground and pigtail, isnt the entire cluster grounded at any one point? Isnt there continuity on the entire board? or are there points at which ground is broken and looks for another mounting screw?
Click to expand...

The clusters are all originally grounded by the mounting screws. Not the best. Just unhook your temp sender out under the hood and ground it. You don't want to leave the key on for long. The fuel has two places for access, either the tank sender, or access the tail harness connector in the left kick panel. You 'll have to conult the manual for proper wire.

The cluster is essentially "one big thing" so yeah, grounding at any point should be OK

Thanks for the photos by the way
 
I guess what I am asking is, if the little green flasher indicators are working, then am I to assume that the cluster is properly grounded. Or is it still possible that the Temp and Gas gauge are lacking a ground, even though the flasher indicators are working.
 
gdizzle said:
I guess what I am asking is, if the little green flasher indicators are working, then am I to assume that the cluster is properly grounded. Or is it still possible that the Temp and Gas gauge are lacking a ground, even though the flasher indicators are working.
Click to expand...

No. "Ground" for a circuit that is not actually properly grounded can backfeed through something else

EXAMPLE: Back in the days of 62-3-4-5-6 etc Chevs, which had part of the stop / tail lamps on the trunk lid and part on the body, you'd see stuff like the lights appear to be on, but you hit the brakes and some of them go dead. This is because with the tail lights on, they are "finding a ground" through the turn / stop filaments circuit. When you step on the brake, suddently you have 12V on both ends of the circuit.
 
Ok pulled the dash out again. connected a pigtail to every ground screw, even added a ground from the cluster frame to the board. Put it back in, and tried grounding the pigtail to any part of the dash, ebrake mount etc.... nothing made the gauges work. still dead.

Tried to ground it out from the engine side, and gauge did not come to life? Maybe bulkhead problem? But if I remove the sender wire (temp) and touch a multimeter directly to the sender unit, I do get varying voltage. Is that right? That would mean it is getting voltage via the ground to the engine strap?

Recap this is now what I got as far as cluster goes:
Both turn indicators flash, dome light works, head lights work, hi beams work and show red light on dash to indicate Hi Beams are on.

I do not get the dash lights that should illuminate the entire dash when the lights gets turned on.
Gas and Temp are dead.

thanks for more help please.
I cant take this out on the road at night if I cant get dash lights to light up.
 
I've lost track of what you have and have not done.

I've written this previously. Treat the gauges as an end --to--end SYSTEM

1...You have voltage coming to and out the IGNITION switch, which goes to one of the pins on the harness connector on the pc board. THAT IS "switched 12V" power to the cluster

2...You have a ground on the cluster.

1A...The switched 12V runs the gauge instrument limiter The IVR is also grounded

3...The IVR has the so called "5v" output, which runs to SUPPLY the gauges

3A....The IVR output goes to the fuel gauge

3B....The IVR output goes to the temp gauge

4....Each gauge sender terminal runs to it's own dedicated pin on the harness connector, one for the temp and one for the fuel

4B....The fuel sender wire only goes on place........from the cluster PC board connector, through the left kickpanel connector, and back to the tank..........essentially one wire

4C.....The temp sender only goes one place....from the cluster PC board connector, through the bulkhead connector to the temp sender....essentially one wire

Test as much as you can "out of the car." "Rig" a battery to the proper PC board terminal and the cluster ground. Now you can ground the sender connections one at a time and test. First ground them at the gauge stud, then move to the PC board proper pin.

If the gauge works at the gauge stud, but not at the PC board connector pin, then you have a problem right there

============================

Problems with my 67:

Broken / loose PC board connector pins. You can repair them in some cases. Just because you have a new or repop board does not mean it is OK

Poor connections between the IVR spring fingers and the board. I had to solder jumpers across

Bad IVR. replaced it.

Loose nuts at the gauge studs. Replaced the nuts.

You have to goe step by step, examining, testing, and repairing each and every step on the way. Just like a chain, "one" broken link will stop the show.

For the sender wires, each terminal in that path........the harness connector at the board. The kick panel connector for fuel, and the bulkhead connector for temp. At the sender ends, the sender connector themselves.
 
Keep in mind that I'm just guessing. Since this thread starts at round 2, I'm also guessing your round 1 was copper traces blistered off the circuit board. If that was your thread and condition found you can confirm it was the traces to the gauges.
Since I'm reading the ground is good and the limiter is working, I'm betting the gauges are dead. If I'm correct on a points I wouldn't have expected those gauges to work.
When the copper traces blister and lift from the board they can touch one another creating unimaginable short circuits. The result would be widespread damage.
As for the dash lights... the dimmer rheostat must be good and must be turned up. Most headlight switches are replaced because only that rheostat has failed.
Go to the fuse box with a simple test light. Find 1 fuse that doesn't get power at either end unless the headlight switch is pulled one click. With the switch pulled there should be power at both ends of that fuse.
 
Thanks for the troubleshooting list. @redfish, no , my original PCB did not blister, it was just old and the little stems had come loose.

@67Dart, I plan on using your list to troubleshoot. I want to test the cluster out of the car like you mention. But how do I rig up a 12v system without buying another car battery? Is there a AC to 12v convertor that I could plug into the wall? That is cheap?

Also i do have some Wall Wart plugs that says it is 12v, but at very low amps like 1 or 2.
I would assume that I would need more amps than that?
Any help please. I have done a ton of wiring (AC), but 12v system is completely new to me.

also when you say Switched 12v, does this means it supplies 12v only when the key is in ignition?
 
gdizzle said:
Thanks for the troubleshooting list. @redfish, no , my original PCB did not blister, it was just old and the little stems had come loose.

@67Dart, I plan on using your list to troubleshoot. I want to test the cluster out of the car like you mention. But how do I rig up a 12v system without buying another car battery? Is there a AC to 12v convertor that I could plug into the wall? That is cheap?

Also i do have some Wall Wart plugs that says it is 12v, but at very low amps like 1 or 2.
I would assume that I would need more amps than that? (that should work fine for testing)
I use a 12v 1 amp transformer from an old router I junked for that kind of stuff.
Any help please. I have done a ton of wiring (AC), but 12v system is completely new to me.

also when you say Switched 12v, does this means it supplies 12v only when the key is in ignition?Yes, key in and turned to the run position.
Click to expand...

Hope I wasn't butting in.
 
Key turned to Run, does this mean the car is running? I believe I can put key in, and turn one click to right, then another click to right will start car.
 
gdizzle said:
also when you say Switched 12v, does this means it supplies 12v only when the key is in ignition?
Click to expand...

Yes. I would just figure a way to rig up to the car battery. You have a garage, or no?

So far as wall worts you have to be VERY careful.

Some are AC output, not DC

There is no standard for polarity

Voltage is often mis-represented. Often, something that claims 12V is "open circuit" much higher, or maybe the rating is just "sloppy."

And sometimes the ripple filtering is poor, as the original application had additional circuit conditioning inside the device.

It--really--is a crapshoot.
 
humm I could use my multimeter to test the Wall wart output to verify polarity and voltage output.
Sadly I do not have a garage, just a driveway.

Let me also ask, the Fuse for the dash, that is for all dash lights correct? So if the turn indicators work and the Hi Beam indcator works, then the fuse has to be good, right?
i gotta get the Dash lights working, the ones that illuminate the background.
And the Headlight switch with the Rheostat is new. Other silly question, does the Dome light dim with rheostat or is Dome light just either On or Off?
 
gdizzle said:
humm I could use my multimeter to test the Wall wart output to verify polarity and voltage output.
Sadly I do not have a garage, just a driveway.

Let me also ask, the Fuse for the dash, that is for all dash lights correct? So if the turn indicators work and the Hi Beam indcator works, then the fuse has to be good, right?
i gotta get the Dash lights working, the ones that illuminate the background.
And the Headlight switch with the Rheostat is new. Other silly question, does the Dome light dim with rheostat or is Dome light just either On or Off?
Click to expand...

The dimmer control does two jobs........grounds the dome light switch wire just like the doors do.

It's main job is dimming the dash lights.

I don't get your inst fuse question.

The dimmer RECEIVES power from the tail fuse through the light switch. The dimmer output SENDS power to the inst fuse, and then off to the dash lights. That is the only job of that switch.
 
Sorry for poorly written questions. I guess what I am asking is are the Dash lights also connected to the Turn Indicator/HiBeam indicator lights on the dash> Or are they separate feeds? Meaning are the turn indicators/HiBeam indicator passing through the fuse for the dash lights?
 
gdizzle said:
Sorry for poorly written questions. I guess what I am asking is are the Dash lights also connected to the Turn Indicator/HiBeam indicator lights on the dash> Or are they separate feeds? Meaning are the turn indicators/HiBeam indicator passing through the fuse for the dash lights?
Click to expand...

Dash lighting is separate from indicator lamps.
Dash lights dim with the headlight switch and indicators do not.

Also dash lights are not on the same circuit or fuse as indicators.
 
^^Yup. Dimmer controlled dash lights are the ONLY thing on the inst fuse, and are fed with orange wire.

Things like indicators are simple to understand

Turn and high beam indicators............These are a grounded socket with a dedicated separate wire to each, coming through pins of the cluster PC board connector. Hi beam goes to high beam side of the dimmer switch.

Each turn indicator is spliced into the front lamp output of the turn signal connector. you can SEE that. There are two wires into the left and the right front terminals.

Brake and oil are different. These are insulated sockets with two wires. One side of each socket goes to switched 12V "ignition run."

The "bottom" end of the wire (which would be grounded) goes to.............

the oil light goes through the bulkhead connector, to the oil sender. It grounds when there is no pressure

The brake light goes TWO places

Goes to a switch on the parking brake handle, which grounds when pulled out. Works like a dome light switch

The same wire branches off and goes to the brake distribution safety switch. This "trips" to ground if either the front or rear brakes have a leak, powering the indicator.

I'm not trying to be mean here. You need to study the wiring diagram. These are just like a road map.
 
Is this same as yours?
2aancc1.jpg



We'll flip it around, because it will then match the shop manual

Notice that the pin layout now matches the diagram

1...First pin of 5 is missing at far bottom left

2....Instrument lamp feed

3....Right turn indicator

4....Switched "ignition run" to power limiter

5....high beam indicator

FAR RIGHT CONNECTOR

6..."G4" to fuel sender

7...instrument lamps.

8...left turn indicator

9....blank

10...temp gauge sender

Go to the right, notice "oil pressure warning" notice it has TWO WIRES

G5 on left is switched ignition power "going to" lamp

G6 on right runs out through bulkhead to oil senderw

e01teg.jpg


2u9jvoh.jpg
 
If these are correct for your car, you might want to save them for future reference.
 
No dome lamp brightness isn't adjustable. If you look really close at profile side of the headlight switch, a finger on the part that turns comes around to push down a separate little light switch to turn on dome. Almost like a light switch on a wall. Anyway...
All except the BRAKE lamp bulb are sharing the same chassis ground, yet all get positive from separate sources. That's why so many wires. Turn and high beam bulbs operating confirms the ground and those positive sources.
All modern connectors have controlling keys or pilots so they cannot be attached wrong. That's not the case with these inst' panel connectors. It's pretty easy to push one of these on wrong, upside down, stepped sideways, both. That would also cause all sorts of problems.
 
Sorry I didn't read all this. Search for my thread on fixing the cluster in my 64 & 65. I tested them on the bench first. Like you, I put an electronic Vreg and tuned the voltage so my gages read perfect w/ test resistors (had to add some shunt resistors to the board to tweak).

I recall that the fuel and temp gages do not require the ground of the cluster. Their sensors complete the circuit to ground. You will not hurt the fuel gage by grounding the sensor input. The needle will peg though. You can get at the wire in the connector under the driver's side kick panel if you don't want to crawl under to the tank. Best guess is you aren't getting 5 VDC out of your electronic Vreg, but a voltmeter would tell you that. It probably isn't bad, and more likely you failed to disable the Vreg inside the fuel gage. Did you read the instructions that came with it? Most Amazon sellers are lax and give no value-added like a clear description or instructions, but you can find them at one ebay vendor's listing (search "voltage limiter" and "Plymouth") or on the RTE site.
 
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