New engine has loss of compression

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mopowers said:
Some engine builders prefer the 1.6s for a number of reasons.

Those Comp rockers look good though.
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That's because they get hung up on stupid stuff. There's really zero reason for 1.6 rockers. The only ONE reason there is really, is if you already have a camshaft that you want to use, but want more lift. Other than that, they are pretty much useless as tits on a boarhog. If you're picking parts right from the get go, just get a cam with the lift you're looking for. Problem solved. Higher ratio rockers will not unlock any magical powers on an engine with the same lift cam running 1.5s. Ain't happenin.
 
mopowers said:
Did you ask your engine builder about the vertical marks?
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No not yet, I didn't really look much into them until just recently, I will ask though.

inertia said:
Well,, if you'd done that solvent test I mentioned,, it's woulda given you an indication, and confirmed that...

tried to help.. cheers
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I did do that test, and everything seemed to hold solvent for a very long time and were all very even. So as far as I know the rings were sealing up well in the first place, so I guess iv'e got enough confirmation about the ring condition lol. I just was wondering why the vertical lines were there.
 
DartVadar said:
I did do that test, and everything seemed to hold solvent for a very long time and were all very even. So as far as I know the rings were sealing up well in the first place, so I guess iv'e got enough confirmation about the ring condition lol. I just was wondering why the vertical lines were there.
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Lol,, well,, you know that test works..lol

Because the mark travels the same distance as the top ring,, I'd guess it's from the top ring gap.. or the top ring picked up a piece of crap..

Do all cyls have a similar mark.??

The ring gaps are supposed to be on opposite sides of the piston, installed in line with the wrist pins (on a non thrust surface),, and will often migrate,, Having said that,, I've seen the gap stay pretty much where installed...

Ma Mopar had a disgruntled employee align all the ring gaps,, the warranty claims were huge..

hope it helps.. cheers
 
RustyRatRod said:
That's because they get hung up on stupid stuff. There's really zero reason for 1.6 rockers. The only ONE reason there is really, is if you already have a camshaft that you want to use, but want more lift. Other than that, they are pretty much useless as tits on a boarhog. If you're picking parts right from the get go, just get a cam with the lift you're looking for. Problem solved. Higher ratio rockers will not unlock any magical powers on an engine with the same lift cam running 1.5s. Ain't happenin.
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I never said 1.6s unlock magical powers over 1.5s. I just know what was recommended to me by Brain at IMM. I highly doubt he "get's hung up on stupid stuff," and I certainly know whose advice I'd follow if it came from you and him. In fact, here is a quote from him in a previous thread:

"1.6 ratio helps overcome the bad lifter angle sb mopars have, and puts more "action" at the valve without moving the lifter higher in the bore"

I'm not sure if it matters with a mild build, like what the OP has.
 
inertia said:
Lol,, well,, you know that test works..lol

Because the mark travels the same distance as the top ring,, I'd guess it's from the top ring gap.. or the top ring picked up a piece of crap..

Do all cyls have a similar mark.??

The ring gaps are supposed to be on opposite sides of the piston, installed in line with the wrist pins (on a non thrust surface),, and will often migrate,, Having said that,, I've seen the gap stay pretty much where installed...

Ma Mopar had a disgruntled employee align all the ring gaps,, the warranty claims were huge..

hope it helps.. cheers
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It could be from the top ring, when I gapped them I de-burred the gaps as well.

And yes they all look about the same, nothing to catch a finger nail on though. And When I arranged the ring gaps I just put the top and second ring on opposite sides of the piston, but I don't think I lined them up with the wrist pin.
 
I would hone and install new rings.
Why take the chance, the cylinder is already somewhat compromised by the scratch.
 
I have 2 thoughts,,

If it were my car, I would prob stick it back together as is,, with the gaps oriented correctly, expecting I MIGHT have to take it apart again, - but then again,, I wouldn't have pulled the pistons after the solvent test.. lol

If the cyls aren't honed correctly,, or the wrong grit is used,, you could have as much trouble with new rings as the old..

Sooo,, as Sireland suggests,, for peace of mind,, HAVE it de-glazed and new rings would be my choice for you...

or,.. toss a coin...

pheww,, I hope that helps.. lol
 
People throw around rocker ratios like they are the end all be all. Look at it from a smaller perspective. The difference in a 1.5 and 1.6 is .1. That's 1/10.....ONE TENTH. Maybe it does help correct the pushrod angle. That's actually a perspective I hadn't thought of and probably a good one. But in sheer terms of lift, as I said, the best thing to do is simply choose wisely with the cam to begin with.
 
inertia said:
I have 2 thoughts,,

If it were my car, I would prob stick it back together as is,, with the gaps oriented correctly, expecting I MIGHT have to take it apart again, - but then again,, I wouldn't have pulled the pistons after the solvent test.. lol

If the cyls aren't honed correctly,, or the wrong grit is used,, you could have as much trouble with new rings as the old..

Sooo,, as Sireland suggests,, for peace of mind,, HAVE it de-glazed and new rings would be my choice for you...

or,.. toss a coin...

pheww,, I hope that helps.. lol
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Well the reason that I pulled the entire thing apart was because a few bearings didn't look as good as they should have looked...It looked like something ran through some of them, and there were some odd strips of copper in some places, the crank needs a polish too, didnt really damage that though. But I wanted to clean everything and figure out what caused that metal or whatever to go through. I talked to my engine guy and he said that it could have come from a few places, the cam (not flat but wore more than it should be), and the spacers under the springs. The spacers were just little shims of copper, and they weren't hardened like they should have been. Looking at the bottom of my oil pan confirms that there was alot of metal in the engine even after 4 oil changes, little slivers of non ferrous metal, some seems to be copper...I can take a picture to show how much metal there is. Well this stuff happens I guess.

So I want to clean EVERYTHING out, and figure out what caused the metal. Could the scratches in the bores be caused by the little pieces of metal in the oil?

And would a simple ball hone like Rusty suggested a while ago be all I need, and would they get rid of the scratches? Because I thought you hone the cylinder wall for the rings that you use?
 
I actually don't use a hone per se when Ire-ring. I use green Scotchbrite over the stones of my flex hone and WDD40 to lubricate them. It really is only a glaze breaking operation - if you "hone" until you see a ton of marks you probably went too far anyway. Moly rings really don't need much to seat these days, so if it's low mileage I'd just use the scotchbrite. I've used that on everything from my Neon to strokers being freshened as long as the bores are straight and round and it's just a surface for the new rings to seat to.
 
I had a concern that for a novice,, getting the knack of the right drill speed and the in/out motion to achieve the proper crosshatch may over-do a coupla bores while you learned..

But with a very fine ball hone,, or Moper's method,, I can't see you doing much harm..

Having said that,, I have had a few moly ringsets fail to seat because of too course of grit..

Thats why I suggested the shop do it,, but heck,.. everyones gotta learn

cheers
 
I showed my engine guy a picture of the marks and he wasn't too worried, he said that as long as there isn't some huge nick or scrape its good. And said that when I hone for the new rings that will get rid of most of it anyways.

He said to very lightly hone it like moper said, and use an old ball hone to just take the glaze off as they are alot smoother than a new one. I also have another block sitting around that I could practice on to get the right technique. I could also just get my grandpa to do it as he has done this quite a few times in the past.
 
Any mild abrasive will work. moper has it right on the money. Moly rings don't need a lot of help. Just as long as the glaze is broken. The scotchbrite sounds like a good idea as well.
 
""the spacers under the springs. The spacers were just little shims of copper, and they weren't hardened like they should have been""

WTF ? That is the second time I've heard this , I have taken a part a few RPM heads after hearing this and have never seen the copper washers , only hardened steel cups . Y ou have pics of this ?

Is this getting to be like watches , they making fake RPM heads ?
 
jerry6 said:
""the spacers under the springs. The spacers were just little shims of copper, and they weren't hardened like they should have been""

WTF ? That is the second time I've heard this , I have taken a part a few RPM heads after hearing this and have never seen the copper washers , only hardened steel cups . Y ou have pics of this ?

Is this getting to be like watches , they making fake RPM heads ?
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I wish I took some pictures, but when I took them into my engine guy he took a valve out to see the seat, and as he took the spring off and saw the copper spacer he just said "thats why I'm not happy with edelbrock stuff" Then he showed me what should have been there. I take it this isn't too common?

At least when I get the heads back they can actually be bolted on...
 
It's more common than you think but not fatal. Not the first time I've heard of it, but out of around 10 sets over the past 12 years I've never seen it myself. I have had incorrect valve springs (like 1 out of 16) before, and no valve seals before in addition to the terrible finish and valve jobs. There should be cups under the shims to keep them from eating into the aluminum head.
 
moper said:
It's more common than you think but not fatal. Not the first time I've heard of it, but out of around 10 sets over the past 12 years I've never seen it myself. I have had incorrect valve springs (like 1 out of 16) before, and no valve seals before in addition to the terrible finish and valve jobs. There should be cups under the shims to keep them from eating into the aluminum head.
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Definitely didn't have those, well is it almost better to buy a set of these heads bare and have them assembled the first time?

And could the lack of these cups be the cause of all the little metal pieces in my oil pan? they are all non ferrous metal, so aluminum and copper.
 
RustyRatRod said:
People throw around rocker ratios like they are the end all be all. Look at it from a smaller perspective. The difference in a 1.5 and 1.6 is .1. That's 1/10.....ONE TENTH.
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It's actually less than one tenth...


You are right, chasing rocker arm ratio does about as much good as pissing in the ocean to raise the water level...

Pick your cam correctly in the first place....
 
DartVadar said:
Definitely didn't have those, well is it almost better to buy a set of these heads bare and have them assembled the first time?

And could the lack of these cups be the cause of all the little metal pieces in my oil pan? they are all non ferrous metal, so aluminum and copper.
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Could be , those springs will eat into the heads . Shop I go to has taken apart and sold hundreds of these heads and never saw without the cups , they tool apart a few while I watched , all had the cups .
Did you buy them new off a reputable seller ? I'm really thinking that here are fake ede heads out there , and why not , they fake anything worth a buck these days .
I would take pics and send them to edelbrock with the serial number and ask them what is going on .
 
jerry6 said:
Could be , those springs will eat into the heads . Shop I go to has taken apart and sold hundreds of these heads and never saw without the cups , they tool apart a few while I watched , all had the cups .
Did you buy them new off a reputable seller ? I'm really thinking that here are fake ede heads out there , and why not , they fake anything worth a buck these days .
I would take pics and send them to edelbrock with the serial number and ask them what is going on .
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I bought them at a reputable store that I go to all the time, so I highly doubt that they are fake. I will maybe look into it. I got a call and they are assembling the heads today, so I will report back all of the problems they found with them.
 
moparlover said:
sounds like you are gettin 'er done DV

what kind of oil were you runnin? just wondering
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Yup! Need to fix now otherwise it'll never get done.

And I ran rottella 15-40 with a bottle of Lucas oil break in additive for the cam every time.
 
So I went and picked up the heads today, and they were rough, valve job was really bad from edelbrock, the height of the valves was all wonky before too. It was a big bill, but they are ACTUALLY ready to bolt on now.

New Retainers
Dual Valve Springs installed to specified height for my cam
Spring Seats
New valve seals
different keepers
3 angle valve job
Machine spring seats
re-surface head (needed to be straightened up)
 
ok do me 2 favors. you may have done it before...

1. when you first start the engine, the oil dont really do it's job until it gets warm. so there will be 2 minutes or so when it's not working. during that time frame, all your mains/rod journals/cam journals (NOT lobes) should be coated with something. this will get it by until the oil warms: white lithium grease. use a THIN amount on all bearings/journals. you can put a thin layer on the oil pump lobes too. dizzy gear. it's important to only put thin layers because globs can plug holes making the oil to take even longer to reach parts, basically defeating the purpose.
the cam lobes get the manufacturer's lube that comes with. but the rest of the stuff gets lubed with the white stuff. some will disagree and just use the red cam lube on everything but i'm an old timer lol.

2. antiseize. it has a purpose other than preventing seizing. it ensures your torque settings are accurate when torquing all bolts that have a spec. again a THIN layer, all threads have to be clean. for instance rod bolts should not even have a spec of dirt , a small amount of antiseize, it will make sure that your ft/lbs on your torque wrench match what the bolt is actually gettting. use it on all main cap / rod cap / head bolt threads.

also if this is a hot little engine i recommend the valvoline racing flavors or brad penn oils. there are a few other good ones also. rotella isnt really one of them it's a budget/fleet oil. it's ok for normal street operations. anything that is going to really stress the bearings, i wouldnt use it.

i just wish i could be there to hear it run, i love hearing new engines :D
 
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