No hassle headers for 66 dart w/360?

Early A-Body Discussions

  1. macman340

    macman340 Well-Known Member

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    You wanta come over to the beach when mine arrive and give me a hand?
     
  2. GGs66GT

    GGs66GT FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    I was looking for headers for my '66 on the web yesterday and came up with Doug's D-450 .
    How ironic I just looked here to find the same thing and a glowing report on how they fit.
    Thanks guys.
     
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    • Mopar Tim

      Mopar Tim FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      I will get a set myself, look good. AND long tube as well!
       
    • JDMopar

      JDMopar Well-Known Member

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      I passed on a brand new set of D450's a guy had for sale in the swap meet here at The Nats for $500. I haven't found a Barracuda yet, so I disn't want to drop the money. Somebody got a good deal....cause they're gone!
       
    • larryj

      larryj Active Member

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      Reading through all of the posts on headers in a 66 Dart is discouraging and convincing me that the best option is keeping the 273 exhaust manifolds. I am not willing to give up PS so the rare 340HP manifolds won't work. Not cutting up the fenders. But have a 340 and 360 in the garage waiting to get rebuilt and dropped in.
      Has anyone used that setup? Wondering how much the turbulence from smaller exhaust ports would affect performance.
       
    • R3dplanet

      R3dplanet Well-Known Member

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      I certainly have.

      Even with the Doug's Headers I had leaks to the point where I had to pull them several times to weld them up, thereby negating the whole point of Doug's in the first place as the TTIs are not slip-fit headers. With power steering and brakes and a manual gearbox it's very, very difficult to get it all to fit. And if you find trouble you have to disassemble the brake, steering, and clutch stuff to get it out of the way to fix the never-ending exhaust trouble. Even with a hydraulic clutch setup I spent way more time dicking around with the exhaust than driving the car. What a total pain in the ass.

      It's the kind of thing that sounds great in the planning stage but in the real world it's awful unless you like ripping out all the above mentioned stuff over and over again.

      Admittedly my 360 with Doug's Headers was a joy when it mostly worked - fast and beautiful sounding. But that almost never happened. There were always exhaust gasses finding their way into the cabin. Very rapidly the car became something I hated to work on so it sat and sat for months in between repair efforts.

      I started with the 273 manifolds before I went with Doug's but they really were quite limiting. The ports are too mismatched and too small. My solution? I sold the 360 and rebuilt the 273 with go-fast parts. Of course it isn't nearly as fast but since I've bought the car and grown up a bit my need to go fast has diminished. Plus, my 20/20 hindsight is that an early-A designed for a Slant/6 engine isn't the best candidate for a hotrod unless you really go all in or live without power steering and brakes.

      My '65 Barracuda is really more of a GT car, a tourer, a gentleman's cruiser as I like to say. I'll take driveability and reliability over all-out performance at this point in my life. It still sounds amazing and to me that's the best part - that's where the visceral joy is.

      But that's just my opinion. Your objectives might be different than mine.

      Cheers.





       
      Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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      • Ciguatera

        Ciguatera FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        R3dplanet and Novacuda have both said in this thread that they have Doug's D-450 headers and had to make modifications to make them fit. R3dplanet's changes mainly seem to apply to a manual transmission car. I want to add headers to my '65 Barracuda Formula S with the stock 273 and automatic. I will also be adding Kelsey Hayes discs with a power brake booster (exact type to be determined), and power steering (probably a Federal pump and Firm Feel box).

        What modifications will I have to make to make these headers fit with the power steering an brakes I mentioned?
        Should I get the unfinished headers and then have them finished after they've been test fit? I would hate to have to damage the finish on the ceramic coated ones if I have to modify the headers themselves.

         
      • stretch

        stretch I cut my cars!

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        What did you use for a hydraulic clutch set up? Are you using an A833? Is it external using a factory clutch fork or is in internal? Can you use a Borg and Beck style pressure plate with it. Most hydraulic clutches require a diaphragm pressure plate.

        Also, you mention using 340 manifolds. I have two sets from the '67 up A-bodys, are these the manifolds you are referring to?

        Thanks, And sorry about the thread hijack.
         
        Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
      • AJ/FormS

        AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s FABO Gold Member

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        Back in about 74,I dropped a 340 into a 65 Valiant wagon, with a 904.That was easy.
        I went fenderwell as that was the only header option at the time. That was the easy choice.
        The fit was perfect, of course.
        And with 13s up front, steering was not a problem.
        Hooking up the street exhaust was a little dorky, but that 340 was more than the chassis could handle anyway, so a few horsepower lost to turbulence was no big deal.
        I was 22 at the time and dumb as can be. Today I would do things a little differently; today I know that the oilpan doesn't have to scrape the pavement, to "handle".
        If I was to put a V8 into an early A, it would for sure be a 360
        And it would for sure have headers.
        And probably fenderwells. I think Hooker makes 5208s, that have just one or two pipes going down as usual, and the others thru the apron. I would give those a try. And,if I had to, I would modify the merges and collectors to turn them smoothly to exit in the usual way.And if I had to I would run an automatic.
        That's what HotRodding is all about;making it work. If a person, no one specific, is afraid of a header install.........maybe HotRodding is not in his blood.
        You can think of Not using headers, as like giving up 1 or even 2 camsizes in horsepower, and for sure 1 size in torque. Or you can think of it as having to run 1 or 2 sizes more gear. Or the next size smaller engine, that does have headers.

        I like 360 torque and when you put a big cam(big for a streeter) into her, she loses torque off the bottom. So I already know that I want a cam,down in the 220/230 range, so then I need to start with a 360, so that I can have at least stock 360 torque off idle. .
        In an early-A, I think I could be happy with a 210/220 cam and tuned right, I believe she could get fuel-mileage deep into the 20s. And that means I can drive it anywhere,anytime. But for me,it has to have headers to get the overlap period working,to pump up the power, else I might as well have put a 318cam in it.
        The point is; If you put a cam into your engine, it's a chain reaction, everything else has to support the new cam. The whole purpose of the bigger cam is to make the engine more efficient at a new higher operating rpm. For that to actually work, more air has to pass thru the engine. Not only do headers let that happen, they encourage it,assist it, and make it, happen.
         
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        • Killer6

          Killer6 Well-Known Member

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          Before You break out the drill, the Sawsall, and the nibbler,....be honest here,...what goals
          do You have for Your ride, power-wise/ET-wise/usage-wise? Most of the power is in the heads
          and cam/intake/carb choice. As to the post that it leaves You with no hp, maybe with a stk.
          273 mannies, but there are better ones that fit, and I can see how cast mannies are holding
          back all of these 3G Hemi's, LS's & Mod Motors from the factory,.....they're just PIGS!!!
           
        • R3dplanet

          R3dplanet Well-Known Member

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          Hello there.

          Yup, I have an A833-overdrive unit. I'd love to get a 5-speed but I just can't justify spending $5k for one extra gear. The 833OD isn't my favorite but it works alright. Maybe one day I'll cut up the car and get a 5-speed but not any time soon.

          I used a few different factory clutch forks along with the 10.5" aluminum bell housing. I also experimented with different pivots. The long and short of it is that in order to use a CRC external pull-type slave cylinder I had to use the shortest fork in order to clear the exhaust pipe. Even then I didn't like how close the slave cylinder was to the exhaust because boiling the hydraulic fluid is a bad idea. Header wrap solved that problem. But with the short fork and stock clutch pedal location the amount of force necessary to push the clutch was really heavy, and all of the components had to be dead nuts perfectly aligned. Especially the clutch pedal to master cylinder.

          I finally ditched all that and used the internal floating slave setup from American Powertrain. The "Hydramax" throwout bearing. That works much better. The upside is that it just works, the downside is that you have to pull the gearbox to install or replace it. Also, you have to stack shim washers to get the correct clearance (1/8") between the clutch splines and bearing. I could not get exactly the right combo with shims, so I turned down a simple spacer on the lathe. Depending on the clutch you use this may or may not be a problem for your application.

          One thing is that while it does work correctly, there is no adjustment. Lucky for me I have barely the right adjustment from the top to bottom of the clutch pedal, but I wish I had a bit more on the bottom. If I had done a better job choosing where to mount the clutch master cylinder and pedal rod this wouldn't have been a problem. If you mount the pedal rod and master cylinder too high on the firewall you'll loose overall throwout, but if you mount it too low you'll lose mechanical advantage. There's not a lot of room for error. But in the end it does work correctly and it let me finally stop screwing around with clutch forks and external slaves.

          I use a Centerforce clutch, but someone mentioned recently that there is another new diaphragm clutch that is easier to depress. Someone also mentioned that somebody makes a 9.75" or 10" diaphragm clutch that fits into the 9.5" bell housing. It turns out that the 9.5" bell housing has more than expected clearance. I wish I could remember who sold it but it escapes me now. That doesn't matter unless you have a 273 and don't want to get the larger bell housing. I wouldn't use the Borg and Beck style just because it's harder to push.

          I'm not using the 340 Hi-Po manifolds. I tried twice but they flat out do not fit a car with power steering. Neither to do the '98-'02 Dakota manifolds. I have a much smaller power steering gear than stock from Borgeson and there still isn't room for the manifolds. The driver side dump is just in the wrong place. I tried to fit them this way and that but no dice. Your choices are really either only the 273 manifolds or Dougs/TTI headers if you have power steering. For a while I thought about making new patterns to cast larger bore and better aligned 273 manifolds, but I'm not set up to do cast iron - especially not that size. I'd like to find someone who is capable of that. The 340 manifolds are '68-'71 Hi-Po units, casting numbers 2863553 and/or 2863549.

          Hopefully this is helpful information.

          Cheers.




           
        • R3dplanet

          R3dplanet Well-Known Member

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          If everything fits together on your car with Doug's D-450, then the coating is very nice. No two of these cars is the same for a variety of reasons. Some users have reported popping them in with no trouble. Others like me had a horrible time. If you think you might have to weld them like I did, then I would buy the raw, uncoated headers. Then do whichever modifications you need, and then have them coated. I ship mine to an outfit that does Jet-Hot coating and that coating has always worked great. Of course it requires a bunch of bumbling getting them sorted out and shipped. Just a thought.

           
        • pishta

          pishta I know I'm right....

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          I cant believe I have not popped in on this one. "S" car: I popped the inners at the spot welds and have them in the garage. Now I can run my old Cyclone fenderwells or mod some later supercomps (larger port sized) without hassle. you want to put the inners back in? Got a MIG welder and an angle grinder with a flap wheel on it? The 5208 Super comps fit P/S but they require holes (just take the entire inner out and run a J-bar support) The TTI and Dougs are pricey but fit (as well as they can with a unibody that doesnt have 2 chassis measurements the same from car to car) if they say P/S I would believe them but I have never seen them on a P/S car. Most of my early A Header pics from shows are Dougs. Why are you hung up on Power steering? light car, light steering.
           
        • stretch

          stretch I cut my cars!

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          I much prefer the feel of a Borg and Beck clutch. I have manual steering and brakes. I'm leaning towards Doug's headers.

          I have set up a few hydraulic throw out bearings but only on T-5s.

          Thank you for the detailed response.
           
        • Litz

          Litz Well-Known Member

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          How difficult is it to run street exhaust with the Hooker 5208's?
           
        • cosgig

          cosgig MoBro Inc. FABO Gold Member

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          Hmm, nobody mentioned the Spitfire knockoffs. I'm running an original set of Spitfires, direct from Harold himself!! Probably the only person who actually received them. They are not under chassis, but work just fine with my exhaust and manual steering. Knockoffs are still available thru Laysons I believe.
           
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          • toolmanmike

            toolmanmike FABO Staff Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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            You're one of the lucky ones. The biggest issue with the OP and others is headers and power steering. If my 273 car had to have more power and still have power steering, I would build the 273 and run stock manifolds. May be spend the bucks and have them extrude honed if that would make much difference. If the Dougs don't work with PS, you can't have it both ways.
             
          • JimmyB

            JimmyB New Member

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            Please forgive me if this is an idiotic question. If the fenderwells are the issue why can't you modify them? Would that give the front wheels not enough room to reach full lock? Or is everyone just wanting to keep the stock wheelwells? I'm asking because I simply don't know. My car doesn't even have wheels on it yetlol.
             
          • AJ/FormS

            AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s FABO Gold Member

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            I used Hookers in 75, as earlier stated. They were the only game it town. It was over 4 decades ago, so I don't recall the number. All the tubes went on the outside of the frame. They were designed for Go-Fast racers with big tires on the back and tall skinny front runners up. And it's all straight line driving......pretty much. And for this application they probably worked well.
            For me, I just wanted an exhaust on my car so I could drive it. Remember I was about 22. With the skinny 13s that were on the car when I got it, this combo seemed to work fine. I can't even remember if the tires ever rubbed. It's just too long ago.
            But a taller wider radial, I'm pretty sure wouldda got to rubbing. Now I could have maybe moved the tire outboard with a lesser backspace, but that I know,now, wouldda upset the scrub radius, and then the steering wouldda got funky. There is no cheap easy solution to this problem, with those old-style headers.

            As to the 5208s, I too am waiting to hear from experienced installers. I have heard that one or perhaps two pipes , go down between the engine and the frame and the rest on the outer side of the frame. That sounds very good to me. And I really would like to see that, and to hear about if those outer pipes interfere with say 235/60-14s on a zero-offset 7 inch wheels. Or what their owners HAD to use for tires and wheels to make it work. I would never run those skinny 13" bias plys again,lol.
            As to hooking the collectors to the exhaust, I would be prepared to cut them off if I had to and re-engineer the turn to underchassis exhaust. That seems like peanuts, compared to building an entire header from scratch.

            oh wait, I don't even have an early A. Still, you know, this information would get bookmarked..........just in case. A wagon again, with a working tailgate,would do it for me.
             
            Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
          • JimmyB

            JimmyB New Member

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            Thanks for the reply. I am in no way a purist and with my history as a wheeler I have no problems with some serious modifications. I am just have to learn what is acceptable on a car... my willys had no inner fenders at all.
             
          • gregsdart

            gregsdart Well-Known Member

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            In 1977 i took in trade a set of Hooker 1 7/8 fenderwell race headers. From a friend that had them on his 1970 AAR cuda.with slip fit primary extensions for tuning. I didn't know if they would fit the 65 Dart with 340 i had, but they did! As i remember, i only had to cut the usual area for the tubes at the top of the inner fenderwells.
             
          • famous bob

            famous bob mopar misfit

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            You will probably have to run smaller front tires, unless u got it jacked to the moon.
             
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            • vpmopar

              vpmopar Active Member

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              My 64 Dart GT convertible has a 360 with 340 X heads. It has power steering and a four speed. I am running a set of Dougs D450 headers. I used Permatex high temp silicone sealer on the slip joint as per their instruction sheet. No exhaust leaks after about a year on the car. I did have to change the factory steering coupler to a Flaming River piece for clearance. The headers fit well with almost no problems. The installation was kind of "fiddley" but no worse than I expected.
               
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              • valiant 1954

                valiant 1954 Active Member

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                no one has mentioned the hedman 78500 with the #1 tube modification , saw it on a 65 cuda 360 4 speed , owner said they where a pcs of cake , alot of clearance even for the z bar with stock suspension . there shoukd be some pics if you research it ,, while we are taling about header ... there is also [ still aaible factory direct] for 650 the hedman fenderwell 75110 for the 63-66 a bodies , this was comfirmed by my email from them they will still make them for you like i said 650 FROM THEM ONLY my question after seeing this headache for years while builing my 66 is , i would order the 75110 , does anyone know , or have run them , the pics look like [since they turn 90 degrees] and fit up under the floor pan ,, they look as if they are inboard more than the hookers ? SO does ANYONE knowif they interfere with the turning radi and not with the t bars turned up all the way ,,with 13s as some of the cheaper ones did ? these 2 options are all i can find that will work for me , but like you all , im noe spending , till i know that they will clear the steering ,, HELP !! somebody had to run these a some time , saw alot of pics and info BUT ?
                 
              • valiant 1954

                valiant 1954 Active Member

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