Ok so lets really talk K-members here Folks
- Thread starter johnparts
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johnparts
Slammed 1
Read that again Joe it says the material is cheaper and weaker not the unit. Meaning this I start with 1 foot of square tubing priced at $1.25 and build a k member with say 10 feet that comes out to $12.50 in material used and depending on wall thickness has some inherent flex in the tubing itself based on the design of the material. Now I start with a 1 3/4 round tube chrome moly priced at $6.00 a foot that same tubing now cost $60.00 for the same 10 feet and it's inherent strength is almost 4x that of the square tubing.
johnparts
Slammed 1
I like the RMS kit I just know there is no way I will even think about being able to afford it.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
Just gotta save like everyone else does. You make it sound like anyone that has bought an alter-k is rockafeller or something. Some of us buy and sell parts along pick up some overtime at work to save to afford parts. That's what I do. And ill bet there are more 10 year project cars out there with stock suspensions out there then alter- equipped ones.
johnparts
Slammed 1
I spent 5 g when I bought my car I'm not going to spend 4 on one part
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
if the square tube is way stronger then needed then why do ya need something 4x stronger.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
It's not a part. It's a system.
johnparts
Slammed 1
Let me tell you a story. I once worked for a company that developed a rear end for the new hemi cars. I told my boss that even though we spent 5600.00 building the first unit we shouldn't price the kit out of the realm of what most could afford. Now this was a "system" as well not just one part. It was axles, a viper center section, a custom built rear cover for the viper diff, new solid mounts for the cover, Hub bearings, and a 2 piece driveshaft. We retailed the first 2 units for $5,999.00 and they sold in 3 weeks. Well this wasn't enough profit for my boss so he bumped the price up to $8,999.00 and well we sold one to a sheik in Quatar but other then that the sales died. Flash forward 2 years and there are 2 other companies building similar set-ups and their price? $5,995.00 and they sell very well.
Why did I bring this up? well I feel that if you have something worth while don't worry about profit the sales will justify themselves in pure volume.
That rear cover alone was machined out of 10 lbs of aluminum and cost $2500 to prototype
Why did I bring this up? well I feel that if you have something worth while don't worry about profit the sales will justify themselves in pure volume.
That rear cover alone was machined out of 10 lbs of aluminum and cost $2500 to prototype
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
a business needs a profit to stay in business. i agree that stupid amounts of profit and being greedy is just stupid. i can't speak for all the systems out there but if you really look into the alter-k and everything you get it is actually one of the better priced systems on the market. can ya build one at home cheaper? maybe maybe not. if ya have one there to copy it exactly i'm sure you can. but if your gonna start from scratch and constantly improve it over the years i doubt it.. you still need supplies, to pay for electric, and what is your time worth? i know my time is worth more then $5 an hour. then if your gonna mass produce them your gonna need some help. what are ya going to pay those guys? i know i want top of the line guys welding front end parts together. i sure don't want some jack *** that is just learning to weld helping me. you gonna supply benefits to those employees? the good employees sure aren't sticking around for crap pay and no benefits. and what supplies do you need? welding machines? welding wire? lights and electric for the shop? heat for the shop? grinders, drills, material... etc..etc..etc... it all adds up man. companys can't build something and sell it for a $5 profit. just doesn't work that way.
johnparts
Slammed 1
Yeah Joe I hear you but there has got to be a ton of money being paid to Bill's employees then
johnparts
Slammed 1
Here is an entire mustang 2 style kit for $1179 retail with Brakes ( 11 inch disc)
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mustang-II-IFS-w-Tubular-Control-Arms,2089.html
Retail to so there is no accounting for discounts like dealer direct or wholesale
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mustang-II-IFS-w-Tubular-Control-Arms,2089.html
Retail to so there is no accounting for discounts like dealer direct or wholesale
The_night_rider
Sheriff of Rockridge
I have already talked to about 10 metal fabricators who said the same thing.
It would cost about 600 in metal and labor to make a custom k member that could hold my hemi (mounts included) and fit into my car. I would just have to buy the rack and pinion separately and buy a coil over kit. The rack and pinion is either a pinto or mustang 2 set up anyway. And those are cheap as heck.
It would cost about 600 in metal and labor to make a custom k member that could hold my hemi (mounts included) and fit into my car. I would just have to buy the rack and pinion separately and buy a coil over kit. The rack and pinion is either a pinto or mustang 2 set up anyway. And those are cheap as heck.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
johnparts
Slammed 1
I just went through his kit's instructions and I noticed something and Joe since you own one answer this for me. Is the spindle a modified unit for front steer? Meaning this does he cut the stock Mustang 2 spindle and weld on a new steering arm?
I can relate to Joe's opinion.I built a system for my 67 dart-341 hemi.Would I build one for you-NO! Mine works very good,rackand pinion,but the material costs and the labor costs are not all that is involved.Should I,for some unforseen reason,have perosity in my welds and there is a problem,I am responsible for you,your car and anyone else involved.Overpriced? Maybe,but the more you build the better you get.Im sure that if harbor freight sold these they would fly off the shelves,and probably fly into the ditch.Caveat Emptor
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
I have a friend that is an outstanding fabricator. Used to build alot of off road trucks, until the $$$ dried up. He now just builds bumpers. Have been thinking about asking him if he could build a k-member for me. Problem is Jared does not believe in reinventing the wheel. Mentioned to him , a while ago, about the RMS unit and it's price. He did tell me if I could get my hands on one he would be able to reproduce it. Problem is, how to ask someone that has an alter-k if I could "borrow" it for a few months. I also know that if were to do it, the only one that would be relatively inexpensive would be mine, as he charges me $45@hr for fab work, where the "non-bud" price is $90@hr. I very well might buy an alter-k for my Dart one day, and then have him build one for my wifes Valiant. I do agree that we get hosed due to the limited demand. What is sad is that Jared charges a set hourly rate to build his bumpers, whether it be one that he has built 50 of or one that he has built 2 of. The one thing that I do like about the alter-k over any of the others is it has it's own shock mounts. My car does have the upper shock mounts tied into the cage, but I still like the idea of the alter-k's built in shock mounts. Not to change the subject, but go to fat man fabrications and check out the price for his "kit" for a 64 Farilane, it is as much $$$, or real close if I remember right, to the price of the alter-k.
johnparts
Slammed 1
So your saying that price is directly related to quality? So all those Chinese spindles in the alter k kits must be crappy then huh because I'm sure they were shopped around a price point just like most companies do. Oh and the entire US army, navy, airforce, and NASA vehicles must suck too since they are built by the lowest bidder.
johnparts
Slammed 1
And I just saw this on AJE's website
$549 but no motor mounts and it uses custom control arms and steering arms.
$549 but no motor mounts and it uses custom control arms and steering arms.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
Ya save all the time and money of R&D. Now ask him how much it cost to start from scratch without a proven pattern.
There is a company out there that did exactly ebay you said. To me its just wrong
momoparman
MOISMYHOME
I agree...they may copy RMS but do they know why the thing is built the way it is......that tubular stuff is cool looking but I don't think they would stand up to every day driving....see similar threads on C.R.A.P. that have been posted here....scary stories for sure.
My 2 cents worth.
Oh by the way I am using an RMS front end with Air ride and it is the best money I ever spent....my car drives and handles like a mustang now....I know it aint cheap and no I'm not wealthy.....I just looked at them all and talked to the builders and Rick at RMS convinced me that his shizzle was the best thought out for a daily driver..
I know you can get the same results doing it with stock stuff as well.....go green brick.
I just needed more room so I could get the low look.
Mop
My 2 cents worth.
Oh by the way I am using an RMS front end with Air ride and it is the best money I ever spent....my car drives and handles like a mustang now....I know it aint cheap and no I'm not wealthy.....I just looked at them all and talked to the builders and Rick at RMS convinced me that his shizzle was the best thought out for a daily driver..
I know you can get the same results doing it with stock stuff as well.....go green brick.
I just needed more room so I could get the low look.
Mop
autoxcuda
Well-Known Member
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You can take a bunch of metal to a welding shop and they will weld it together for you. Then what???
Question is, do you and johnparts have the engineering and development to have a unit that performs as good or better than stock in regard to things like: ackerman, turning radius, roll center distribution under roll and jounce, caster change under compression/rebound WITH turning, anti dive, camber change, bump steer, SAI, etc, etc....
momoparman
MOISMYHOME
Hear Hear......Hurumphhhhhhh....:read2:
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
Not saying it is right, but for me, it might help keep the cost down. A while back when he was still building trucks he had a customer with a 4x4 Titan that did not want a lift kit, he wanted a long travel kit. Jared spent close to 3 full weeks on the computer with the cad software designing it. Thought he had it all figured out and went about building it. Spent over 60 hours building control arms and misc. parts. First test drive went well, minimal bump steer (keep in mind this was a 4x4 with over 16" of wheel travel in the front). Customer was not satisified, took Jared months of on and off tweeking it before he got it right. When all was said and done he had,it his best guess, 30k worth of r&d time into it. I think the customer paid close to 11k for it, but it had coil over shocks, bypass shocks and air bump stops in it, these parts alone were close to 5k. He has never sold another kit, last I checked he has all the jigs to build them. In regards to him duplicating an alter-k for me, I doubt I ever will go that far. For my intended purposes, the oem front end will work just fine for both my wifes Valiant and my Dart. For me, the only real advantage of the Alter-k is header clearance, and seeing as how my car, one way or the other, will need custom built headers it would be a waste of money for the Alter-k. I have spoke with 2 different shops that have built headers for an A-body with a Dart, and both guys said that the torsion bars and steering box are not that big of a deal when you are custom building headers....
momoparman
MOISMYHOME
Custom built headers......there you go.
You will save much time and money and in the end maybe the dude can produce and sell better headers for us all.
Mop:cheers:
You will save much time and money and in the end maybe the dude can produce and sell better headers for us all.
Mop:cheers:
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
Jared has an engineering degree, so yeah he probably would understand it. Jared has built dozens of long travel front ends under off road trucks, often times with completey fabed steering linkages. SO the theory behind it, he would understand. Problem is he would have a hard time making money building them to sell, due to the limited market, especially in this economy. That is why he stopped building trucks and just builds bolt on bumpers. And he is beyond busy. Face it, what is one of the first thing people that are into trucks change after buying a truck....bumpers, cuz that is what everyone sees......
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