Piston rings,oil pump question?

[myasylum]

Can someone give me some good advice on piston rings?
I'm going .060 over on pistons, and have decided to go with the KB pistons, but I have notice that that rings are as much as the pistons are!
Are there rings that can be found at a good price, or is this just the way it is?
Also I will be needing a oil pump, what would be recommended for a fair price on a 360? Thanks!!

 

[myasylum]

??

 

[71DartGuy]

Which type and part number piston did you choose?

 

[myasylum]

the KB 107's. I didn't get them yet so if there are other opinions I'd still consider that too. This is one of those "budget" builds. Thanks.

Also, looking at rings I saw they sell them as a "set" but does that mean "set" for one piston, or "set" for 8?

 

[71DartGuy]

SHould be a set for all 8 pistons. I know the 107's are inexpensive but didnt think the rings would be just as much???

 

[myasylum]

Yea! That's what I noticed too!! Very uncool! That's why I'm looking into different rings! It seems like if they can't soak you on the price for the pistons, there going to get you with the rings... so your paying $$$ either way!

Anyone else????

 

[myasylum]

??

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

just get a good moly top ring, speed pro's or hastings are good.

 

[rumblefish360]

I agree w/68 HEMI GTS. Keep looking around.
On a oil pump, Melings, right out of summit/jegs is an inexpensive part. A stock is unit is fine.

 

[ramcharger]

Call Summit. I think I paid well under a $100 for a complete set. I don't feel that moly rings are 100% necessary unless you're running n2o or forced induction. It's just hard on the cylinder walls and seeing that you're at your last overbore, I'd stick with plain iron rings. They'll seal great very quickly and will last plenty long.

Get a melling oil pump.

 

[Robbie2734]

just get a good moly top ring, speed pro's or hastings are good.

I saw Hastings moly rings for 39.95 on ebay, I'm about to order a set of .030 over for my 107's... After reading the comment on moiy's though I might go with iron rings though.

 

[myasylum]

You mean like these??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hast...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Are you sure that thats a set of "8" and not a set for one piston?

 

[rumblefish360]

It said right there in the ad;

Hastings Performance Moly Ring Set - 5/64 5/64 3/16 - Fits Ford, Chevy and Mopar pistons with 4.060 Bore

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

don't agree with the moly rings wearing out your cylinders. new car engines use moly rings and run for 100's of thousand miles. cast rings work but they are way harder on cylinder walls. when's the last time you had to use a ridge reemer to get pistons out of a new engine??

 

[ramcharger]

cast rings work but they are way harder on cylinder walls. when's the last time you had to use a ridge reemer to get pistons out of a new engine??

The moly rings are ductile iron with moly deposited on the surface via a plasma process. So you have cast iron wearing on cast iron or super hard moly on cast iron. What do you think will wear first? Now if this was a 400+ HP high compression 318 running at 7000 rpm, the moly rings would most certainly hold up longer in that type of high stress, high heat enviroment.

When was the last time a full cast iron block was used on a new passenger car gasoline engine? For the most part, they're not. They're aluminum blocks sleeved with a tougher material or lined with nickel (called nikasil). Newer engines also use much thinner rings and lower tension to reduce friction.

The cast iron engines still in use from the factory use a much higher nickel content cast iron and benefit from much better machineing than was availible on the production line 35 or 45 years ago too.

Myasylum,

Whichever ring type you decide to go with, make sure your machinist know before he bores and hones. Cast iron rings are much more forgiving to boring and honing without a torque plate and the final hone finish. If you go moly, those rings will for sure last longer but be sure he uses a torque plate and give the correct plateau finish for the moly rings.

You could have got a complete set of Speed Pro flat top pistons with moly rings, coated skirts and a 4.060 bore for $265:

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=TRW-8KH116CP60&view=1&N=700+150+

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

you can't tell me that the last iron blocks made (302, 350, 318 ) have more nickel. (now aftermarket blocks are different, i chewed up quite a few boring bits taking my mopar hemi block from 4.250 out to 4.400). i am a machinist and i can tell you a 90's 318 is softer than 318 blocks from the 60's. how do i know?? easy, i've bored and honed them. yes the aluminum blocks do have harder sleeve material, they don't really ware at all. but that fact of the matter is i've build plenty of engines with both kinds of rings and i'm saying its BS that the moly rings wear out the cylinder walls faster than a cast ring. you can read all the tech articles you want to make your decesions, i tend to use experiance for mine.

 

[C130 Chief]

I've had good luck with Hastings as well as, Speed-Pro/TRW/Perfect Circle/Federal Mogul. I always use moly rings, and tend to think the Hastings seat a bit quicker. $75-100 is what I would expect to spend for a set. Heck, you can usually get a basic "rebuild kit" for under $300 which will include rings, main and rod bearings and a complete gasket set.

With the KB pistons, make sure you file the top ring gap EXACTLY according the piston instructions. They need a wide gap due to the high top ring placement.

 

[ramcharger]

I'm 43 and have been building engines since I was 16, profesionally since I was 18. Never assume things about someone you don't know on a forum you haven't even been on for even a year.

When you said "New engine" I was thinking after 2004 at least. An engine built in the 90's is not "new" in any sense of the word and as far as I know they were not using moly rings on a 90's 5.2/5.6. Another reason for the reduction in bore wear on the magnum engines (since this is what you are apparently talking about) is due to the use of fuel injection which prevents bores being washed down by sticky chokes, needles and seats, etc.

Moly coated rings will most certainly last longer but in the original poster's situation where he is on his last overbore with a machinist of unknown experience with a relativley low hp, low budget build street car, cast iron rings will work great and seal fast and tight. If the rings fail in 90-100K he can save himself a butt load of dough and do a dingleberry hone, replace the rings and be on his way for another 100k.

All I'm trying to do is help the kid out so he spends the least amount of money possible and still achieves his goal, not to get in a pissing contest. Moly rings aren't going to give him anymore hp on this build.

 

[perfacar]

hi, a moly ring will seal under wide open throttle, cast rings do NOT! a moly is not hard on the bores! in fact a moly ring is self lubricating, it absorbs oil to maintain seal. besides,the rings do not touch the walls unless there is no oil. they ride on a film of oil. ring radial tension is what wears a bore. most moly rings are a lower tension compared to others. as with anything, you get what you pay for. as for HP, a moly ring does make more power, it seals better.
cast rings were great in a flathead ford. I did a circle track motor for a guy, he wanted cast rings, local machine shop told him same thing, molys are no good, he ran in the middle of the pack all season long. for the last big race , I rehoned bores ,installed a moly ring , he placed in the top 4 to transfer to the main event on sunday. with the cast ring he was pulling 6800 max down back , moly ring motor was pulling 7200 and was way faster. just food for thought. the price difference is not worth putting junk parts in .

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

I'm 43 and have been building engines since I was 16, profesionally since I was 18. Never assume things about someone you don't know on a forum you haven't even been on for even a year.

When you said "New engine" I was thinking after 2004 at least. An engine built in the 90's is not "new" in any sense of the word and as far as I know they were not using moly rings on a 90's 5.2/5.6. Another reason for the reduction in bore wear on the magnum engines (since this is what you are apparently talking about) is due to the use of fuel injection which prevents bores being washed down by sticky chokes, needles and seats, etc.

Moly coated rings will most certainly last longer but in the original poster's situation where he is on his last overbore with a machinist of unknown experience with a relativley low hp, low budget build street car, cast iron rings will work great and seal fast and tight. If the rings fail in 90-100K he can save himself a butt load of dough and do a dingleberry hone, replace the rings and be on his way for another 100k.

All I'm trying to do is help the kid out so he spends the least amount of money possible and still achieves his goal, not to get in a pissing contest. Moly rings aren't going to give him anymore hp on this build.

i dont care if your 43, 103, or 13 for that matter, and i don't care how long you've been a board member. you have no idea about my background either so if you want to match credentials i'll go at it any day with you. my point is if your going through all the expense of a bore and hone why put some junk rings in?? im not here to be in a pissing match either, i just don't want to see people waste good money, trying to save a few dollars by skimping on a set of rings. i only recommend things i would do to my own enignes, and doing a complete bore and hone then throwing cast rings in is not one of them.

 

[rumblefish360]

Well, as long as this donesn't get hositile......

 

[C130 Chief]

BTW the OEMs, Mopar included have been using moly rings for years. They break in better, last well and don't cost more. Your machinist should be asking you what rings you will be running ad will finish your bores accordingly. Both Hastings and the FM brands are used by most OEMs to this day.

 

[ramcharger]

i dont care if your 43, 103, or 13 for that matter, and i don't care how long you've been a board member. you have no idea about my background either so if you want to match credentials i'll go at it any day with you. my point is if your going through all the expense of a bore and hone why put some junk rings in?? im not here to be in a pissing match either, i just don't want to see people waste good money, trying to save a few dollars by skimping on a set of rings. i only recommend things i would do to my own enignes, and doing a complete bore and hone then throwing cast rings in is not one of them.

No problem kid. I used cast rings in my last rebuild for my own vehicle, no BS. Why? I'm not racing it, it will only see 5.5K racing some **** Infinty or Porche Cayene on the entrance ramp or up the hill through the Eisenhower pass. I'm Talkin' over 9500' above sea level and I live at 5280'. Get it yet? Cylinder seal and combustion pressure here are key!! I'm running a very carefully measured 10.2+:1 on 89 octane without ping with a J head @ 34 degrees total.

This is just one of my many engines, my resume' not withstanding. It seals tight and can beat any GM or Ford V8 on the ramp, till I have to pull over and re-jet, LOL.

I edited this about ten times. PM if you still have a problem with me.

 

[ramcharger]

BTW the OEMs, Mopar included have been using moly rings for years.

Prove it. I'm being nice. When did Chrysler start using plasma moly rings on any cast iron block?????

 

[moper]

Well, my take... Plasma Moly rings were introduced to seat much faster. The ring is a plain cast iron ring, with the top ring set coated on the wear surface with molybdenum. That coating wears off as the ring seats on the wall. It's that wearing off that lets the rings seat that much faster. They are no different from a std iron ring other than the coating. The reason the bores need the ultra smooth surface (platuea honed or brushed) is the same as the moly. An iron ring would typically wear the high spots (meaning microscopic points left from the machining operation that look like shreaded metal). That's why in the past the technique was smooth steady acceleration, then compression braking to allow oil to come back up the walls and help the rings seat. Moly does not need that step Moly rings are 100% seated to the bore in less time than a cam break in. They are not seated to the piston until there is load placed on the engine. But the costing is for lubricant only. Similar to the sjirt coating show on the summit link post. That allows Sealed Power to run a tighter bore clearance. I do believe (although I dont have an article) that OEM manufacturers started using them in the early 90s, because seated rings use less oil and have better emissions and economy right off the showroom floor.