Racers look here to help a newbie -Thanks

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Moparlover---Explain the half the cost post?????? Cost on a 600hp motor???? No way it would be half--Unless of course your using 440 source stuff and I would like to talk to someone who is using 440 source stuff on a dedicated strip car--Steve
 
If it was me - and i hope to be in the same palce ina few years in terms of building something for myself - I'd go 4 link. You're starting from a clean slate. IMO - go the full monte with what you can do and back half it. You will save money on the powertrain by getting an adjustable chassis and less weight behind it - and ultimately leave yourself room to grow in the engine department. As far as the cage and stuff- if it's a race car purpose built - do it from moly from the get-go. It's cheaper than doing it in steel and then wanting to upgrade later.
 
moper said:
if it was me - and i hope to be in the same palce ina few years in terms of building something for myself - i'd go 4 link. You're starting from a clean slate. Imo - go the full monte with what you can do and back half it. You will save money on the powertrain by getting an adjustable chassis and less weight behind it - and ultimately leave yourself room to grow in the engine department. As far as the cage and stuff- if it's a race car purpose built - do it from moly from the get-go. It's cheaper than doing it in steel and then wanting to upgrade later.
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x2 this ^^^^^
 
I tend to disagree with the people that say go to a four link. I would ask the O.P. if he's driven a dedicated race car with that style of suspension or a trans brake? I'm gonna say that the learning curve would be fairly steep compared to stepping in to a leaf spring/footbrake type car.

The Calvert stuff is proven into the low nines. If you're going that far, there's going to be a lot more considerations beyond rear suspension so at that point its going to be an entirely different car anyway. I guess he has to answer what he thinks his immediate and future goals are with the car.

Again, the Calvert stuff is $1,000 but that's it. There's generally no fabrication involved unless you move your springs inward, but that's minimal compared to the work involved with putting in a 4 link. 4 link kits range anywhere from 6-900 for raw materials alone. It then has to be welded in by someone competent and those guys are not cheap. There's a cage involved with both setups but it would be a lot simpler to deal with with a stock style setup. A 4 link is likely going to be tubbed out so you're looking at tin work too. And oh yeah, are you going to run a a stock front end with a 4 link? Probably not! (more $$)

Learn to drive at that level and figure out what the car does with a basic setup before you start going crazy with all this stuff. Even if it is a dedicated race car it does not have to be complicated.

If you read the M.W. 4 link kit description, it says there can be 144 different instant centers. I think more than one could make your head spin.
 
There is an *** load of science involved , but we seem to be veering radically away from the original premise.
Let's not over complicate it.
#1 New guy
#2 scratch build
#3 in the 10's.
I am certain there is a formula for this , and it is likely an expression as opposed to an equation.
But the easy answer is ladder bar.
Far easier to install ( or cheaper to have installed ) , hooks on a wide variety of surfaces without a ton of tweaking / tuning , gives you some measure of " down the road " upgradability that any leaf combination will not.
Read a book , buy the kit , slap it in , enjoy.
Bar angle and pinion angle are the extent of it.........I could delve into instant center , bar length and a bunch of other variables , but they are in the book and explained much better than I could.
And you have some margin of error / wiggle room that you do NOT with a four link. They work like a thoroughbred when they are set up , but if you miss , they can get ugly fast.
 
Big tire, 4 link (or ladder bar) bracket car that only runs in the 10's = a good chance of WINNING (with a good driver of course). The guys at my track that do this type of combo bring home the money often, with combos that run 7.0-6.40's in the 1/8...especially when it is hot a greasy out and everyone else gets inconsistent. JMO.

These are the cars that can hook in a car wash. They make GREAT bracket cars.
 
SO-I've been doing a lot of reading,research and asking and here is another question,Would a 4 link like Rms street lynx--Control freak 4 link parallel system,auto welds parallel bar system,Are any of these built to take the abuse of the track--Anyone with experience on any of these,The car is stripped and on the rotisserie as we speak--Thanks A lot guy's-I'm learning everyday--Steve
 
Non parallel 4 links are built with handling in mind. ( street lynx etc. )
They will work to a degree , but lack adjustability and are a compromise solution. If this is to be a drag car , I wouldn't waste my time.
When you get to parallel , adjustable 4 link , there is really one thing in mind.......sort of.
Guys do use poly joints and try to give them street manners as far as noise , but that is a show and tell version of a drag racing suspension.
The complexity of 4 link tuning should not be attempted by a novice without help from someone who knows their ****. You can follow rules of thumb and still be scratching your head at why it did this or why won't it do that. The learning curve can be steep and the results from a bad decision can be pants filling. It is the best choice for making big power cars hook for sure , but the simplicity of a ladder bar and the goals you stated make the choice for you.
 
If the goal is get it in the 10s for smallest amount of work and cost then my ideas arent a good fit. My read on this is it's more than that and the result has to do more than just the stated goal of "right now".
 
THanks Guy's for paying attention to this post,I'm studying different ladder bar set-ups as we speak,I don't want to make a mistake although I'm a rookie and need to learn and study and plan and read and on and on and on--Steve
 
Moper-Your common sense to this is helping me big time,Roll bar will be chrome molly and I'm going to tie the front end frames right away--Steve
 
I thought I should clarify some ideas here. My point is that if you stay with leaf springs, Cal Tracs are hard to argue with. All the NHRA stocker racers I mentioned earlier that run them would probably go to a 4 link or a ladder bar if the rules allowed them to do so. Saying that they all use them is fine but its only because the rules dictate they must run the original factory configuration. The Calvert stuff has been allowed by NHRA for whatever reason hence their popularity.

That being said, I guess your choice comes down to how much fabrication you are willing to do at this particular time with the car stripped down. Ladder bars would be less work but either one takes a skilled hand to do them right.

Plus, I still say leaf springs will be OK for your application but I'm probably in the minority with that opinion.
 
if it's only a strip car. build the most chassis you can afford. like some of the others have said you will save in the long run and if you ever sell the car it makes it more desirable to alot broader group of racers. go with a parrallel 4-link, wish bone for locating it, a anti rollbar ,with double adjustable shocks. either put struts or a mustang 2 type front suspension. if you are going to pay to have this done most good chassis builders will go to the track and help you get it lined out. do all the chassis frame and cage with Chromoly. if your going to do the work yourself, you can order a Chassis in different stages of completion. you can also get anyone of these companys on the phone and they can help point you in the right direction for choice of parts.

chassisworks
S&W racecars
Chassisengineering
Art Morrison
Alston
RJ racecars
Jerry Bickel

I have bought from and delt with all of these companys
 
The best plan of action might be decide on the class and ET and study the cars that run it. I've seen the ETs but you're tossing around three different suspension ideas and two powertrains. A lot of friends that bracket raced in the past started in the 12s and went as far as 10s over years and small changes and improvements in the package. Guys that built a purpose built car started 10 and inevitably wanted to go faster. The problem is going into the 10s isn;t much different than 12s when you talk about improvements that are bolt-in. Going 9s is very different from 10s in terms of cost, commitment, reliability and repeatability. That's why I look at future use too.
 
Ladder bars are not that hard to install....putting set on a Duster in a couple of weeks.....this will be the 4th car that I have installed ladder bars and coil over shocks on.
 
I'm with 2004... anything that needs welding on should be the best you can afford. It's easy to upgrade a good chassis and a good chassis guy will help you get down the track. It's good business sense for them to have you be successful.
 
swifter said:
I should have stated also this isn't your dream drag car but building on a budget
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Steve, don't lose site of the quote above. I know "budget" means different things to different people, but it's easy to get carried away.....I know you have some different threads for separate parts of the car, but if the "budget" is to be considered, you really need to look at all aspects. I'd hate to see you get 25k+ deep in a Valiant that you'll be tired of in a year or two.

You really need to ask yourself, is this a build that i'll really love, will keep for years, and upgrade power in the future? If not, i'd take the milder route for now.

OldmanRick said:
Since your talking rear suspensions and budgets, for long term durability, you may want to consider housing choices while you're at it. 10 oh's is approaching, a back braced/fabbed 8 3/4, Dana 60, or even 9" Ferd territory.
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As I mentioned above for this particular thread, the housing needs consideration. Add the cost of a 500/600hp plant that has some modicum of reliability, a good trans/converter, plus all the other essentials like the fuel system, cooling, wiring, hardware, etc. It will become costly in a big hurry.

Good luck with the project. Have fun, but really step back and look from time to time to make sure your plans really meet your goals.
 
Well said oldman--It feels weird calling you that!!!!! I'm not opening my wallet at this moment in time,I'm already re-thinking the body work on the car as I sit and look at it,I don't really care what the outside looks like ,it's other people that might but I also like the aspect of a rough outside look with quality insides and mechanicals,the time slip is the proof really at the end of all the work my son and i are about to do,I'm just seeking advise to sort thru,I'd rather have a mechanically safe and sound car< I've got my show car duster but it also runs 11.30's and that's a blast to drive.Just want to build this together with my son and spend quality time with him and learning together this crazy thing called racing--Thanks For all the help guy's,I DO read every reply and i'm doing homework every night. Steve
 
Old man --I already have a 727 with a griner valve body and transbrake on the way,Got a great deal doing a power buy with a couple other MOPAR MISFIT"S -that's what we call our little Mopar group up here--Steve
 
If your building on a budget, keep it simple. Dana 60, 4:30ish gears, SS springs and a pinion snubber is all that Mopar needs to run in the 10's. The rest is up to you. Follow the rule book if your building a bracket car. Mopar bracket cars will run in the 10's all day long with "low buck" modifications. If you want to go faster, then you'll spend and spend and spend. JMO
 
Steve, just call me Rick :D. I love the fact that this is a Father/Son build. Mine's 29 and has lost all interest in cars already. He liked Honda's & Ford's for a time...lol, but he's already become a SUV guy...:banghead:.

Wrong thread, but what are you guys looking at for a powerplant?
 
Rick--I'm stuck on that one too,I have several 400 blocks and also have another 5.7 like i've got in the duster and the 5.7 is machined and ready to go but the 400 blocks need everything,I know a 451 stroker is a torque monster but it might be too much in a little valiant (bigger slicks) and quite a few pro class cars at Norwalk were running built 5.7's down to 10.00,so right now I'm stuck on that one i also have a 78 360 block all machined and ready,I believe in getting a block and having it cleaned up right away to know if it is a boat anchor or a good seasoned block hence why I payed to do the machining on the blocks,Cost wise it really is a toss up or flip of the coin,Alan my engine guy doesn't mark parts up very much and that helps,I built my other 5.7 for aroung six grand and that's with callies crank,rods,diamond pistons,head studs,main studs,custom comp cam and lifters,indy ported big valve 5.7 heads and a pro-max 950 carb,that has 528 to the rear tires on a Mustang dyno without the 150 shot of nitrous i have on tap,I'm a true believer in the 5.7 and kind of leaning that direction but the 451 stroker might be the ticket--I'm open to suggestions--Steve
 
Yea-my son is about to turn 21 next week and he is finally realizing he doesn't know everything and dad just might be right about a few things!!!!!! LOL--steve
 
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