stock or hv oil pump

Small Block Mopar Engine

  1. MOPAROFFICIAL

    MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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    Do i really have to explain what happens when you put more volume to the same size hole as std...the psi just might go up, the oil might even run a higher temp..huh... how about those worn lifter bore that bleed off extra oil, if the lifter end is pissing away the pressure.. well...
    Btw why would you bother cleaning up the casting flash on a cam/valley window when its not much to begin with ...and...you want the oil TO STAY ON THE CAM OR GO BACK TO THE PAN...and NOT shower the bottom of the intake with HOT OIL...i leave the flash there and use Valley baffle. A race block has some vents for crankcase pressure relief and for drian back, otherwise they close the valley to strengthen it.

    IQ said where the volume gonna go with the same clearances...? I completely get where he is coming from, but only in a perfect world maybe....How about the worn lifter bores? the full groove main bearings? the bigger rod clearance .0021+?
    How about these goof balls drilling holes in the lifter galley plugs? The rear lifter galley plug to oil the intermediate shaft...Lol use your imagination. Plenty of places that could use the volume.
    Nothing is new and stock, and people have their ideas they throw around and implement.
    Stock m72 is all you need till you hit 7500+rpm ..then you need to look into changing some things.

    Do you need a hv pump? NO!
    Do you need to tap the galley plug to squirt oil on the intermediate? NO!
    Do you need to squirt oil psi on the chain? NO!

    Do you need a pan baffle with any pump?YES!!!
    One poster went to boast his std pump with hp spring fixed his problem...then mentioned "hemi pan'"... thats a baffled pan. Thats what fixed your problem imo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
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    • pittsburghracer

      pittsburghracer FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      According to you guys my junk should blow up on its first pass. Lol. Standard oil pump, 10-30 oil, and high end bearing clearance. I’m not going to say I never run a high volume oil pump but when I do I sacrifice horsepower by doing so.
       
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      • 12swinger

        12swinger Well-Known Member

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        I bet the extra quart of oil didn’t hurt either?
        The baffle in a Hemi pan is a joke.
        Have you seen the amount the oil level drops when running a high volume pump? Sucks damn near half the volume of a 4 quart sump right up the moment it starts.
        I only boasted about the Chevelle not getting around me!
         
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        • Oldmanmopar

          Oldmanmopar Going left turning right FABO Gold Member

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          The impeller is taller which moves more oil at a faster rate.. I would turn my motor with the ign off until I saw the pressure gauge move.. Do to the remote oil filter and oil cooler The HV pump would make the gauge react much quicker. You really don't need much pressure on a solid lift motor. Harleys only have about 3 lbs. Pressure will just wash the bearings out on a babit engine. But you need constant oil flow to fill the clearances. This is one reason a HV pump is a good replacement for a motor with high mileage and worn with wider clearances.

          Running a cooler you need flow so it cools. I had a oil temp gauge in my car . I was having overheating problem due to a bad rad that I couldn't figure out. My motor was running at 220 - 240 coolant temp at the time on the street. The oil cooler would keep the oil much cooler for a longer distance. Now that the cooling problem was corrected before the accident occured I will not be reusing the cooler when rebuilding the car. I may still be keeping the HV pump due to the remote filter.

          The pictures below show the remote filter and the cooler peeking through the grille. That is a long distance for the oil to travel and the reason I use a HV pump. I use the remote filter because of the 2 inch tube headers. We could not change the the large WIX filter unless I removed the rear tube. I could get it off just couldn't get it out. With the new K-member I may be able to eliminate that whole system. Weight??? We'll see

          One thing I thought I would mention. Even though I had an 8 quart milodon Pan I ran it one quart low on the dipstick.
          It never sucked it dry I had a big red light in the car . The light never came on not even over 9000 RPM's. With a HV pump. The engine still needed a total of 8 quarts to fill the cooler and remote filter lines.

          Steve 107.JPG

          spoiler pics 776.jpg

          DSCF2824.JPG
           
        • IQ52

          IQ52 Well-Known Member

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          If you put together an engine that will suck the pan dry with a HV pump.......you put together a stupidly designed engine. Because that engine will lose oil pressure at high rpm with standard or HV pump. Either there is no oil in the pan to supply the engine or there is insufficient pump volume to keep the pressure safe. I use a HV pump in every engine I build and I oil the timing chain. Never sucked even a 4 qt pan dry and never lacked for horsepower. I like the extra volume potential.

          I'm wrong. Pittsburghracer is wrong. Maybe we should go to a dry sump system in the engine because both other pumps are wrong.

          As to my question.........At the same oil pressure with the same oil you cannot pump a greater volume through the engine with a HV pump.

          If you use higher oil pressure with a standard pump than a HV pump, on the same engine, you are pumping more oil volume through the engine with the standard pump because you are pushing oil through the engine clearances under greater pressure.
           
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          • aaronk785

            aaronk785 Well-Known Member

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            Not going to take sides here. But my experience is HV in everything I have with stock pan. I have never had a bearing problem so why change. 7000 rpm in a 340 and 6500 in my 440. I do run an extra 1/2 to 1 qt. of oil with a windage tray.
             
          • yellow rose

            yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

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            Yep. And not oiling the timing set is just silly. A .040-.060 hole won't hurt a thing. Splash oiling is how you oil a lawn mower engine.

            Chrylser should be ashamed at the crap way they oil the timing set.

            The HV pump gets oil to the engine sooner.

            I'm going to bet if you did suck the pan dry, there were other issues going on. Like not getting the pickup the correct distance from the bottom of the pan (which is an interference fit with a stock pickup) or something else.

            A crank scraper (a correctly designed one) will actually raise oil pressure. I doubt I would do any serious street/strip engine without one any more.
             
            Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
          • MOPAROFFICIAL

            MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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            Right on. Not a knock on you.
            Just wanted to make a point about the part oil slosh plays in this, more than its credited for...and the importance of a sump baffle in relation to that.
            Also making multiple changes and then assuming one of those was 'the one' that was needed.. is just guessing.
            Yeah those 4 qt pans were a joke.
            As i said earlier, page 1 or 2, there is only so much in the pan under some decent rpm.. and its sloshed to the back,side, front.... its running away from the pickup and you gotta control it.. or chase it with a swinging pickup.
            Every app has different demands.
            Street, daily driver, flat lander, no race or lead footing... stock pan, pickup, std pump. Fine.
            Hot rod, lead foot, towing trailer through the mountains...stock pan baffled, stock pickup, std pump. Fine.
            Lead foot/dual purpose , street/strip, road race 'under 7200 rpm'...deep baffled pan, big pickup tube, std pump. Option hv if its loose.
            Drag race, road race, full competition deep baffled pan, big pickup, high pressure pump option for dry sump. Oiling system modifications recommended...as well as half fill..lol...rods, studs, caps possibly.

            Keep things appropriate and dont get too carried away with underkill or overkill.
             
            Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
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            • Jadaharabi

              Jadaharabi FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              Don't care what anybody sez that is one beautifully detailed engine compartment and car.
               
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              • Jadaharabi

                Jadaharabi FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                Thought the reason for removing the flashing be it in the lifter Valley or in the bottom of the motor or on the cylinder heads was to reduce the risk of a stress crack.

                Personally I've only seen it happen to one block an that was a 273. It was on the front opening passenger side about 3/4 of an inch long.
                 
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                • MOPAROFFICIAL

                  MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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                  This. Friends out in the desert had this problem running high pressure pumps in their sbc's.
                   
                • MOPAROFFICIAL

                  MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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                  Never seen't that happen in my lifetime.
                  LOL...
                  answers I would accept...
                  to strengthen the valley, like polishing a rod. Kidding, whatever helps for what what you're doing i guess. We all have sometimes different experiences.
                  Imo Some things are just a waste of time and solely for the delight or conscience of the builder.

                  I grind the flashing from all the heads i port to help the oil return to the valley faster and to take some of the weight off of them, If they're iron, because they could really use any lightening they can get!

                  Some might call that a waste...but imo not compared to unflashing the windows or oiling the intermediate.
                   
                • Jadaharabi

                  Jadaharabi FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  What mods did you do to the oiling system?
                  What small block has a stock 5 quart pan?
                   
                • jbc426

                  jbc426 Well-Known Member

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                  It's not the road race pan. It's one of Milidon's extra capacity LA oil pans for a 360. They fit on Magnum blocks, but you have to use the 4 piece pan gasket set unless you modify the pan to flatten the notches at the timing cover/ oil pan rail.

                  I made the mistake of using the one piece Magnum oil pan gasket, without hammering the notches flat. The flaps on that gasket blocked the view of the big gap that was left at both notches, so I couldn't see the opening it left. Oil was spraying out everywhere from those gaps until I finally figured it out.

                  I hammered mine down and used a Magnum one-piece gasket with a bit of extra Permatex Ultra seal on all four corners of the front and rear transitions.

                  You can see the dimple I made so the main studs didn't hold the pan off the sealing surface in the pan photo.

                  Old oil pan gasket.JPG

                  Oil Pan Gaskets (Medium).JPG

                  Oil Pan pic.JPG
                   
                  Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
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                  • krazykuda

                    krazykuda Well-Known Member FABO Gold Member How-To Section Editor

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                    Yes it will, but you have to pound some clearance for it to fit.... I test fit it on the back and get it to sit flat on the block without a gasket to make sure that the high volume oil pump doesn't keep the pan from sealing...

                    Just get out the old ball peen hammer and bang at the back radius and back surface until you get it to sit flat and line up the mounting holes...
                     
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                    • RustyRatRod

                      RustyRatRod Bla de blizhibliz de blatde blizi bla bla FABO Gold Member

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                      Sometimes. It depends on which pan and which pump. I've had them fit right on before and then had to modify the pan.
                       
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                      • pittsburghracer

                        pittsburghracer FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                        I just spent a couple of hours grinding on my 360 block (408) build I’m working on. Probably another hour to go then I will drill a few holes in the intake valley and champher them to aid oil drain-back. I see some 50 degree weather early next week so hopefully I can give the block a good bath. Dirty dirty work.
                         
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                        • Jadaharabi

                          Jadaharabi FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                          Nice pan.
                           
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                          • fishmens67

                            fishmens67 Well-Known Member

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                            :popcorn:
                             
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                            • MOPAROFFICIAL

                              MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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                              Pretty much what it turns into.
                              If it lives and doesn't eat itself then it must be okay. Lmao

                              It goes from a design thats lived 50+ years to..."itll blow up if you dont run dry sump or a swing'n dick pickup with a hosepower robbing 100 psi oil pump and an oil pan the size of a swimming pool"

                              I love me sum internet
                               
                              Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
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                              • MOPAROFFICIAL

                                MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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                                Notching the bores for rod/bolt clearance for 4" crank is always fun. Do the link bar clearance in the valley as well is always a good idea if a solid roller goes in.

                                Ever have the one rear lifter boss crack and break off?
                                 
                              • MOPAROFFICIAL

                                MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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                                Oiling issues...smh...


                                'Slick50'


                                Nuff said.
                                 
                              • MOPAROFFICIAL

                                MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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                                And when you really wanna 'turn it up' a notch...

                                20200211_104255.jpg
                                 
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                                • yellow rose

                                  yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

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                                  This is why making broad generalizations is a bad thing.

                                  How much power do you lose running a 100 PSI system? Answer: it depends. Sometimes it makes power.

                                  Just like the old LIE that a mag takes a bunch of power to run. They take less than 1 horsepower. Less than 1, yet all the whiz bangs in gym shorts and guru internet stooges who've never seen a mag let alone used on will claim you are losing power running a mag.

                                  The FACT is it is combination dependent. If all you build is 6500 RPM stuff than most things don't matter.

                                  When you try to build power and RPM its two different worlds.
                                   
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                                  • MOPAROFFICIAL

                                    MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

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                                    Yes, of course.
                                    The lengths of what was explored was a world apart from the op's original question.


                                    A few peoples intention to make a point or inlighten/elude to more on the subject ..or those trying carry on an old wives tale...tend to degrade and derail in the end. A arguement insues and the hypotheticals come out to join in... and bam... we are debating what best against whats needed and then mr.whats ideal shows up and its a figure 8 of brain farts, theorists and idealists crashing into one another....
                                    If dude wants to use a hv pump, go ahead, just get the hardened intermediate shaft as well..and If he drives like me..he will need a baffle, at least too.
                                     
                                    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
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