TheCraigMachine
Well-Known Member
I origially posted this in the general discussions. I felt that this belongs here as well.
This is a litte soapbox of mine that has really been getting turned over quite a bit lately. There's a fierce debate going on as we speak over at the small block tech about this very subject. Here http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/...d.php?t=205755
Years ago, I cut my teeth working on mopars. Some slant sixes, but mostly on the venerable 318 mill. I've kinda developed a fondness for the little teens. They just have a different "hum" than most other engines.
Ive got a few friends who are car guys. One is a die hard chevy man. Another is a ford and AMC nut. Out of these two, believe it or not, the one who agrees with me more on this subject is the chevy guy! Let me explain.
I have several different vehicles that I consider "project cars", most mopars, some different makes. I have a 73 Challenger that was my first car that i swapped a 5.9 magnum into, including the serpentine accessory drive. I have a 66 imperial Crown that I saved from the crusher. It has a 440 that I built and runs really well for a huge car. I have my grandfathers 84 Buick park avenue with a 307 olds under the hood. This car is all original with 80k original miles and is in mint condition. My grandfather used to call this his "big fine car". I have a 79 Cadillac coupe deville with a 425 that i bought from the police auction just for giggles. This car no longer runs. I have two Plymouth valiants. One a 66 4 door with a 170/3 on the tree, the other a 65 2 door post car with a transplanted 318 from my challenger. Each one of these cars has a totally different character, a different feeling, and a different sound. Its what makes them unique in thier own ways. The 65 valiant, however, is the car that is the basis for this discussion here.
This particular car has only been on the road about a month since the engine swap took place. Its taken me years to get it to that point. I put new heads, cam, and intake on the original shortblock, which was apparently not the right thing to do; I blew a main and lost oil pressure.
Im now being faced with a rebuild one way or another. Ive always wanted to build a roller cam 318 that will rev easily and make SMOOTH power and have respectable fuel economy for the power. I already HAVE two different roller 318's as well as a nice comp roller cam that i had bought for the magnum powered challenger, but never installed.
Heres where the debate comes into play: My Ford/AMC buddy is giving me a bunch of flack about wanting to build a 318. He keeps telling me that he would "never build a 318 when a 360 is the same size and weight". He seems to think that the 318 engine itself is just a stupid concept, and cannnot wrap his mind around why it even still exists, much less why anyone would build an engine that was only "300" cubic inches. I throw out the usual "well what about the 302 ford?" But before i can even finish my sentence, he pipes up and says "Oh, theres NO comparison between a 302 and a 318!" I dont know about you guys, but most STOCK 302s ive driven were complete and total DOGS! So yeah, Id say that there is NO comparison there.
My Chevrolet buddy has been itching to build a 307 for as long as ive known him. He likes the big bore/short stroke combination of the engine, although it suffers the same caveats as the 318: low compression, poor induction, and a sausage for a camshaft. This guy can see the potential in the basic shortblock with its superior rod/stroke ratio and its ability to wind up easier. Just get some air into the thing and itll come alive. The 318 and the 307 chevy have very similar specs in this respect, and he sees the potential in the combination. He says "Go for it, and Ill build a 307 and see what we can get out of them". He likes to say that any chimp with a summit catalog can build a 350 to run 12's. Not everybody can do that with a 307.
Now I know the 360 is truly the superior small block mopar street engine. Its 4" bore and longer 3.58" stroke allow it to reach its torque peak earlier in the RPM range, with an overall higer potential torque output. But its because of that longer stroke that it makes a different sound when you wind it up. To me, the 360 sounds a lot like a 350 chevy. The bore and stroke on both of these engines are very similar, and both have siamesed exhaust ports.
The short stroke LAs on the other hand, kind of have a rythmic "hum" to them instead of a "BWWAAAHHHHGGGHHH" that the 360 has when you wind them up. It just seems alot smoother to me, and i like that.
Now we all know here what it takes to make serious power out of a 318, its been talked to death here. But it seems that everytime someone starts talking about building a 318 (or 273 for that matter), the "just go get a 360" guys start running in like dogs in heat and overrun the original topic at hand. The same thing happens at the big block camp anytime somebody so much as whispers 383, and the 440 guys start barging in.
I want to build a 318 because its what I want for my car!!! If I wanted to build a rocketship, Id use a 360, or build a stroker. But thats not the direction that i want to take this particular project.
This hobby is supposed to be fun people. It doesnt have to be monkey see, monkey do. Not everybody wants a fire breathing 440 in their 64 dart. Its all about making the car "yours". Its all about what YOU want to be able to do with it.
End of rant.
This is a litte soapbox of mine that has really been getting turned over quite a bit lately. There's a fierce debate going on as we speak over at the small block tech about this very subject. Here http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/...d.php?t=205755
Years ago, I cut my teeth working on mopars. Some slant sixes, but mostly on the venerable 318 mill. I've kinda developed a fondness for the little teens. They just have a different "hum" than most other engines.
Ive got a few friends who are car guys. One is a die hard chevy man. Another is a ford and AMC nut. Out of these two, believe it or not, the one who agrees with me more on this subject is the chevy guy! Let me explain.
I have several different vehicles that I consider "project cars", most mopars, some different makes. I have a 73 Challenger that was my first car that i swapped a 5.9 magnum into, including the serpentine accessory drive. I have a 66 imperial Crown that I saved from the crusher. It has a 440 that I built and runs really well for a huge car. I have my grandfathers 84 Buick park avenue with a 307 olds under the hood. This car is all original with 80k original miles and is in mint condition. My grandfather used to call this his "big fine car". I have a 79 Cadillac coupe deville with a 425 that i bought from the police auction just for giggles. This car no longer runs. I have two Plymouth valiants. One a 66 4 door with a 170/3 on the tree, the other a 65 2 door post car with a transplanted 318 from my challenger. Each one of these cars has a totally different character, a different feeling, and a different sound. Its what makes them unique in thier own ways. The 65 valiant, however, is the car that is the basis for this discussion here.
This particular car has only been on the road about a month since the engine swap took place. Its taken me years to get it to that point. I put new heads, cam, and intake on the original shortblock, which was apparently not the right thing to do; I blew a main and lost oil pressure.
Im now being faced with a rebuild one way or another. Ive always wanted to build a roller cam 318 that will rev easily and make SMOOTH power and have respectable fuel economy for the power. I already HAVE two different roller 318's as well as a nice comp roller cam that i had bought for the magnum powered challenger, but never installed.
Heres where the debate comes into play: My Ford/AMC buddy is giving me a bunch of flack about wanting to build a 318. He keeps telling me that he would "never build a 318 when a 360 is the same size and weight". He seems to think that the 318 engine itself is just a stupid concept, and cannnot wrap his mind around why it even still exists, much less why anyone would build an engine that was only "300" cubic inches. I throw out the usual "well what about the 302 ford?" But before i can even finish my sentence, he pipes up and says "Oh, theres NO comparison between a 302 and a 318!" I dont know about you guys, but most STOCK 302s ive driven were complete and total DOGS! So yeah, Id say that there is NO comparison there.
My Chevrolet buddy has been itching to build a 307 for as long as ive known him. He likes the big bore/short stroke combination of the engine, although it suffers the same caveats as the 318: low compression, poor induction, and a sausage for a camshaft. This guy can see the potential in the basic shortblock with its superior rod/stroke ratio and its ability to wind up easier. Just get some air into the thing and itll come alive. The 318 and the 307 chevy have very similar specs in this respect, and he sees the potential in the combination. He says "Go for it, and Ill build a 307 and see what we can get out of them". He likes to say that any chimp with a summit catalog can build a 350 to run 12's. Not everybody can do that with a 307.
Now I know the 360 is truly the superior small block mopar street engine. Its 4" bore and longer 3.58" stroke allow it to reach its torque peak earlier in the RPM range, with an overall higer potential torque output. But its because of that longer stroke that it makes a different sound when you wind it up. To me, the 360 sounds a lot like a 350 chevy. The bore and stroke on both of these engines are very similar, and both have siamesed exhaust ports.
The short stroke LAs on the other hand, kind of have a rythmic "hum" to them instead of a "BWWAAAHHHHGGGHHH" that the 360 has when you wind them up. It just seems alot smoother to me, and i like that.
Now we all know here what it takes to make serious power out of a 318, its been talked to death here. But it seems that everytime someone starts talking about building a 318 (or 273 for that matter), the "just go get a 360" guys start running in like dogs in heat and overrun the original topic at hand. The same thing happens at the big block camp anytime somebody so much as whispers 383, and the 440 guys start barging in.
I want to build a 318 because its what I want for my car!!! If I wanted to build a rocketship, Id use a 360, or build a stroker. But thats not the direction that i want to take this particular project.
This hobby is supposed to be fun people. It doesnt have to be monkey see, monkey do. Not everybody wants a fire breathing 440 in their 64 dart. Its all about making the car "yours". Its all about what YOU want to be able to do with it.
End of rant.
