To dyno or not to dyno?

[TT5.9mag]

That's what I need, an engine run stand. I think the local machine shop around here has one. I'll will have to ask the owner what the cost for time and labor would be.

Also, I think I might go for tuning on the chassis dyno, it's cheaper and dialing the engine right in the car might be the way to go.

Well, planet earth is a pretty big place. If you tell us where you’re at we might be able to get you hooked up. For instance, I just yanked a small block off my run stand and it’s sitting here empty. If you were within 50 miles of me I’d bring it to you. I’ll also be traveling from so cal to Tucson Az next week if you’re along the route I could drop it off.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

In my book, repeated visits to a dragstrip is not a downside.

It is if you don’t have a baseline and you are just guessing.

You have the weather, track, driver that all have to be accounted for.

Times slips don’t tell the whole story.

 

[crackedback]

Well, planet earth is a pretty big place. If you tell us where you’re at we might be able to get you hooked up. For instance, I just yanked a small block off my run stand and it’s sitting here empty. If you were within 50 miles of me I’d bring it to you. I’ll also be traveling from so cal to Tucson Az next week if you’re along the route I could drop it off.
View attachment 1716466078

That's an awesome offer. Part of the good stuff on this site!

 

[Ant]

Well, planet earth is a pretty big place. If you tell us where you’re at we might be able to get you hooked up. For instance, I just yanked a small block off my run stand and it’s sitting here empty. If you were within 50 miles of me I’d bring it to you. I’ll also be traveling from so cal to Tucson Az next week if you’re along the route I could drop it off.
View attachment 1716466078

Sorry, all the way in NY, thanks for the offer. I'll call the machine shop and see if he can hook up to Mopar small blocks. If not, I'll just drop it in the car.

 

[RAMM]

Running the engine on a stand takes care of initial break-in and any concerns about issues - if the price is reasonable.
Utility of the chassis dyno depends heavily on the operator or you, and what you want to get out of it. For full power mid to top end an inertia dyno will show which changes add or subract more Hp for each change. If its got WBO2 tail sniffer you can also see if the AFR is drifting during the pull and things like that.

That said, the mph in the 1/4 will get you pretty close, usually for less money, but depending on how busy the track is, may take longer, and even repeated visits. Plus you get to run the 1/4 mile.

For cruising and throttle response you'll need an eddy-current dyno and an operator that knows how to work it for those things. That's a rarity. Expect to do the street tuning on your own.

An engine run-in stand is not the greatest solution either. You cannot put any load on the rings just running in essentially neutral. The SF-902 has an automated test cycle literally called "break-in". I use it all the time. I have never seen anyone on YouTube ever use it or even knows about it. It works like this:
The operator selects the lowest rpm the engine will see I usually select 1900rpm, and the the highest rpm which I like 2400rpm. Then number of seconds per cycle, I like 60 to represent minutes and then I select 5 cycles = 5 minutes. I start the engine hit the start test button and then put about 75-100 ft/lbs of load on the engine. The test cycle will spend 30 seconds dragging the engine down to 1900rpm and 30 seconds reducing load to allow the engine to hit 2400rpm. I leave the console and check timing, water, exhaust temp etc.....After 5 cycles I shut it off for 5 minutes and then repeat all over again for 3 more cycles for 20 minutes total. This loads the rings properly, and I can usually tell if other issues will arise during this process. FWIW, J.Rob

 

[92b]

An engine run-in stand is not the greatest solution either. You cannot put any load on the rings just running in essentially neutral. The SF-902 has an automated test cycle literally called "break-in". I use it all the time. I have never seen anyone on YouTube ever use it or even knows about it. It works like this:
The operator selects the lowest rpm the engine will see I usually select 1900rpm, and the the highest rpm which I like 2400rpm. Then number of seconds per cycle, I like 60 to represent minutes and then I select 5 cycles = 5 minutes. I start the engine hit the start test button and then put about 75-100 ft/lbs of load on the engine. The test cycle will spend 30 seconds dragging the engine down to 1900rpm and 30 seconds reducing load to allow the engine to hit 2400rpm. I leave the console and check timing, water, exhaust temp etc.....After 5 cycles I shut it off for 5 minutes and then repeat all over again for 3 more cycles for 20 minutes total. This loads the rings properly, and I can usually tell if other issues will arise during this process. FWIW, J.Rob

I use the same procedure with my depac, minus the shut off every 5 minutes. Are you shutting the engine off or just the load control? If just the load control, what do you do with the engine rpm while it is shut off? Five minutes on then five minutes off times four, is that 40 minutes total? Just curious. Thank you.

 

[TT5.9mag]

An engine run-in stand is not the greatest solution either. You cannot put any load on the rings just running in essentially neutral. The SF-902 has an automated test cycle literally called "break-in". I use it all the time. I have never seen anyone on YouTube ever use it or even knows about it. It works like this:
The operator selects the lowest rpm the engine will see I usually select 1900rpm, and the the highest rpm which I like 2400rpm. Then number of seconds per cycle, I like 60 to represent minutes and then I select 5 cycles = 5 minutes. I start the engine hit the start test button and then put about 75-100 ft/lbs of load on the engine. The test cycle will spend 30 seconds dragging the engine down to 1900rpm and 30 seconds reducing load to allow the engine to hit 2400rpm. I leave the console and check timing, water, exhaust temp etc.....After 5 cycles I shut it off for 5 minutes and then repeat all over again for 3 more cycles for 20 minutes total. This loads the rings properly, and I can usually tell if other issues will arise during this process. FWIW, J.Rob

I use the same procedure with my depac, minus the shut off every 5 minutes. Are you shutting the engine off or just the load control? If just the load control, what do you do with the engine rpm while it is shut off? Five minutes on then five minutes off times four, is that 40 minutes total? Just curious. Thank you.

Every engine I’ve seen run through westech has been put through a very similar break in process.

 

[PRH]

Sorry, all the way in NY

For sure, not all dyno services are created equal.

That being said, it’s hard for me to imagine you could be anywhere in the state of NY and not be within 2hrs of an engine dyno.

If the one close to you is a $900 proposition……..for a mild combo like yours, that would be a tuff pill to swallow.

 

[Ant]

Well... since I have everyone reading, l'll go off topic and ask about using the 90° oil filter adapter. My filter just clears the header, but should I use a 90° adapter anyway? Also how will fitment be in the engine bay?

I do have an adapter, but it's on another motor right now.

 

[crackedback]

Well... since I have everyone reading, l'll go off topic and ask about using the 90° oil filter adapter. My filter just clears the header, but should I use a 90° adapter anyway? Also how will fitment be in the engine bay?

I do have an adapter, but it's on another motor right now.

View attachment 1716466307

If the filter clears the headers DO NOT use the 90*

 

[RAMM]

I use the same procedure with my depac, minus the shut off every 5 minutes. Are you shutting the engine off or just the load control? If just the load control, what do you do with the engine rpm while it is shut off? Five minutes on then five minutes off times four, is that 40 minutes total? Just curious. Thank you.

I shut the engine down, just to keep temperatures below a certain threshold and keep an eyeball on things. J.Rob

 

[92b]

I shut the engine down, just to keep temperatures below a certain threshold and keep an eyeball on things. J.Rob

Is it oil temp that gets too high?

 

[RAMM]

Is it oil temp that gets too high?

Oil temp should track within 10 degrees of water but yes in a dyno cell with less air movement around the engine everything gets hot, plugwires, timing light pickups (lol). I just don't see a need to run the engine under load for 20mins straight. J.Rob

 

[Dave999]

I have to say my experience with chassis dyno tuning has also left a bit of a bitter taste.
3 times, different places, initially happy but not happy for very long afterwards, because the car doesn't drive on the street much better... even though i have a print out with a bigger set of numbers on it

i went fully computerised, i went to a guy with a portable set of rollers, and i went to guy in his 80s who's prehistoric dyno just lifted a large weight on a chain in the corner, he was the best but none of them spotted the issues.and the last guy charged my £80 on top for a set of NGK7 which i could have had for £30...

unless you are willing to pay for drivability tuning, and engage with the business for a full morning or day like you were doing full ecu mapping, and the dyno operator is engaged enough to allow you to swap springs in the dizzy etc

you end up with a 2 hour session that focuses on all out power and a result that gets you a little more BHP at a point in the rpm range you might just hit if you gun it off the lights. You get a nice print out with your bill/invoice, they might even put it in a folder, and you leave £200-400 poorer.... and with not a lot of difference on the street on the way home.
Its not like on TV or YouTube, their ain't no gang of cool car dudes with cotton reels in their ear lobes all doing amazing stuff to your motor to wring that last oz of torque out of it.

just a bloke in ear protectors who looks like he can't wait until you leave and he can get back to tuning something with his laptop rather than jets...

Seat of the pants is free
lambda sensor and gauge is 200-300 and you get to use it for ever.... not 2 hours

in summary if you go to a chassis dyno do not choose to do what they advertise, they all have their price list and its not for customers like us.
Make sure you tell them exactly what you want out of the session and get a quote.
Choose one that knows what a carburettor is or is willing to let you take part doing the stuff the laptop guys won't do...

maybe this is just a problem here in england...but many are supremely good at removing cash from your pocket for very little gain.

turn up with a nissan skyline or toyota supra and it may be a different experience....

Dave

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I have to say my experience with chassis dyno tuning has also left a bit of a bitter taste.
3 times, different places, initially happy but not happy for very long afterwards, because the car doesn't drive on the street much better... even though i have a print out with a bigger set of numbers on it

i went fully computerised, i went to a guy with a portable set of rollers, and i went to guy in his 80s who's prehistoric dyno just lifted a large weight on a chain in the corner, he was the best but none of them spotted the issues.and the last guy charged my £80 on top for a set of NGK7 which i could have had for £30...

unless you are willing to pay for drivability tuning, and engage with the business for a full morning or day like you were doing full ecu mapping, and the dyno operator is engaged enough to allow you to swap springs in the dizzy etc

you end up with a 2 hour session that focuses on all out power and a result that gets you a little more BHP at a point in the rpm range you might just hit if you gun it off the lights. You get a nice print out with your bill/invoice, they might even put it in a folder, and you leave £200-400 poorer.... and with not a lot of difference on the street on the way home.
Its not like on TV or YouTube, their ain't no gang of cool car dudes with cotton reels in their ear lobes all doing amazing stuff to your motor to wring that last oz of torque out of it.

just a bloke in ear protectors who looks like he can't wait until you leave and he can get back to tuning something with his laptop rather than jets...

Seat of the pants is free
lambda sensor and gauge is 200-300 and you get to use it for ever.... not 2 hours

in summary if you go to a chassis dyno do not choose to do what they advertise, they all have their price list and its not for customers like us.
Make sure you tell them exactly what you want out of the session and get a quote.
Choose one that knows what a carburettor is or is willing to let you take part doing the stuff the laptop guys won't do...

maybe this is just a problem here in england...but many are supremely good at removing cash from your pocket for very little gain.

turn up with a nissan skyline or toyota supra and it may be a different experience....

Dave

It is very difficult to do real drivability tuning on an inertia dyno. You have no way to steady state load the engine.

All dyno’s have different capabilities and liabilities.

 

[Dave999]

yes, that makes a lot of sense, it was a learning experience. i guess i choose the wrong tool or had the wrong expectations. They were all happy to take the booking

 

[Mattax]

yes, that makes a lot of sense, it was a learning experience. i guess i choose the wrong tool or had the wrong expectations. They were all happy to take the booking

Dave, Sorry to read you had bad experiences at all three.
It can be a useful tool but it does take a reasonably good operator, and certainly not one that thinks its a cash machine.

The first time I took a car it was reasonably good experience. The owner had done a little talk at our SCCA region's meeting. Not that means a lot. He had his 'kid' run it and he had two rate structures. One was three pulls, the other by time. The first is for the guys just looking for a bragging number, the latter is for guys looking to tune. You bring the parts - you make the changes. He provided a floppy disk with the runs on them.
I used him again again with a different engine. By that time he had added a tailpipe WBO2.

When running on an inertia dyno my undertanding is the most consistant and reliable data is going to be when its full load. In practice this means mid rpm to max with an automatic that can downshift (don't want it downshift). With a stick or a fully manual automatic you can get it to full throttle a little lower in the rpm range.

Because that first session was run by the kid, we captured the data before the shift up, which I think is kind of cool but not really useful.

Eddy current Dynos.
All of the other shops I've used had eddy current dynos or an eddy current add-on. The Bimmer place insisted they could run my '67 but they couldn't. The Mustang dyno attaches to the wheels and the fenders on our older cars are too far out compared to the new cars.

Another shop that was a little further was a similar experience to yours. The son of the owner was the dyno guy and didn't know how to use it properly. He couldn't even figure out how to give me the data files. From what I could figure he ran it with a load 'to be more realistic'. He turned the distributor the wrong way to 'add' timing advance. It was obvious as soon as I was driving it home.

The place I used the most let me do what I wanted. They just set it up for me.

 

[Mattax]

Here is the first good pull (baseline) and the first change.
Just focus on the 80 mph to the top. That's when it was full power.

Notice there was no AFR info.
Also take note that it really didn't matter. Hp went up throughout the pull. Mission number one accomplished.

The baseline info I supplied. Owner had no way to know this info, and it was really up to me as to what I wanted to accomplish.

Made several more pulls after that.
Yes I had jets ready and made the changes quick. Pretty similar to when going to the track. Same with the timing light.

 

[Dave999]

I think my motor was probably too far away from a good tune in the past
it ran well and was way better than what came out but has certainly benefited from work since.
i'm probably now at a position where some dyno time would be of benefit.

so in theory if i'd paid for an engine dyno session like the orginal poster was suggesting i would have short cut to where i am today..... before the engine was in the car, thuis saving 10 years of hobby type fiddling about.

i think i have changed my mind

engine dyno sounds like a good idea

Dave

 

[Newbomb Turk]

One of the biggest issues I run into is how much is the customer willing to spend, not only in cash but in time.

If you are testing a non roller engine where you have cam break in and spring changes and/or coated pistons that require time to break in you have to know you are going to eat up the better part of a day just doing that.

Thats before you ever make a pull.

If you want to really tune that is one full day at least. Even if you are using a computer and you can ride the dots to establish a timing curve.

Thats before you make a power pull. Thats before you start working on the carb or anything else. Of course you have your baseline tuneup so you aren’t killing parts getting to the place where you can make power pulls.

Two days is the absolute minimum to do that, and thats IF there are no other issues like oil leaks and who knows what else that can go wrong.

This is why guys aren’t always happy with the results of a day on the dyno. We haven’t even gotten into doing lash loops, carb changes, header testing or anything else.

Real dyno testing takes time to do it right and time is money.

 

[RAMM]

I think my motor was probably too far away from a good tune in the past
it ran well and was way better than what came out but has certainly benefited from work since.
i'm probably now at a position where some dyno time would be of benefit.

so in theory if i'd paid for an engine dyno session like the orginal poster was suggesting i would have short cut to where i am today..... before the engine was in the car, thuis saving 10 years of hobby type fiddling about.

i think i have changed my mind

engine dyno sounds like a good idea

Dave

You really have come to the right conclusion: On an engine dyno you cut out all of the "noise" driveline, wheel slip, even going to WOT consistently. Small changes show up with a good engine dyno and operator. It really is a time saver and for what it costs just to maintain a dyno I really don't charge enough for the information that it provides. J.Rob

 

[RAMM]

One of the biggest issues I run into is how much is the customer willing to spend, not only in cash but in time.

If you are testing a non roller engine where you have cam break in and spring changes and/or coated pistons that require time to break in you have to know you are going to eat up the better part of a day just doing that.

Thats before you ever make a pull.

If you want to really tune that is one full day at least. Even if you are using a computer and you can ride the dots to establish a timing curve.

Thats before you make a power pull. Thats before you start working on the carb or anything else. Of course you have your baseline tuneup so you aren’t killing parts getting to the place where you can make power pulls.

Two days is the absolute minimum to do that, and thats IF there are no other issues like oil leaks and who knows what else that can go wrong.

This is why guys aren’t always happy with the results of a day on the dyno. We haven’t even gotten into doing lash loops, carb changes, header testing or anything else.

Real dyno testing takes time to do it right and time is money.

This is ^^^^100%. My best results were our EMC engines--Why? Because they would spend on average 2 weeks on the dyno. This involved removing the intake manifold several times, removing cylinder heads, moving the cam around, reconfiguring headers/collectors, sometimes even the whole block would be torn down and re-honed, rings changed, and 1 time even a new line hone job opening up the clearances. It was really fun though. The stuff we learned. J.Rob

 

[Michael Harrington]

If you're asking than it means you are curious and I say do it. However, if that money spent means your mortgage payment will not be paid, or you/your wife's medicines cannot be paid for then heck now!