Two men’s opinions

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Is there any research on the chemical breakdown of the powdery residue ?

Pretty sure it's just aluminum oxide. But most carburetors are made from alloys that also contain other metals such as zinc, magnesium, manganese and copper. Aluminum is apparently always the least noble and so will oxidize more readily than the rest. But for this to happen there needs to be an electrolyte. I'm not sure if BTEX additives can be electrolytes, but I'm pretty sure ethanol can. It's basically a weak acid much like water. Super weak, but still slightly acidic. Add to it that it absorbs water and it seems like a cocktail perfect for super slow galvanic reactions.

But like I said, I'm no chemist and so I'm curious what others have to say on the matter.
 
Ive never lived in fear. But those who seem to think my weedeater will end the earth sure seem to be quaking in their boots.

Photosynthesis takes place at all kinds of wavelengths depending on the organism, and many make compounds using invisible wavelengths. If you don't understand the science, leave it to the adults.

None of the super expensive "wonder panels" have ever made it to market yet either. They all require unobtanium that seems to always be two weeks away. They also require constant maintenance due to dust and damage which reduces the lux the sensors see.
Photosynthesis is actually not that efficient. It's as efficient as nature needed. Look at a tree. The leaves that would spread to a VERY large solar collector. And that's just to keep one tree alive.

There is FAR more energy in light than what mother nature harvests. To ignore the massive amount of energy that hits our planet every second is just stupid.
 
Photosynthesis is actually not that efficient. It's as efficient as nature needed. Look at a tree. The leaves that would spread to a VERY large solar collector. And that's just to keep one tree alive.

There is FAR more energy in light than what mother nature harvests. To ignore the massive amount of energy that hits our planet every second is just stupid.

Do the math and get back to me. You're obviously not referring to anything you haven't been told is true.

To ignore the energy inputs required to build and maintain solar systems is lunacy.
 
Do the math and get back to me. You're obviously not referring to anything you haven't been told is true.

To ignore the energy inputs required to build and maintain solar systems is lunacy.
That's today. And why do your side always go to complete replacement? It will take time. But green is the future. And I think you know that.

Did you really think that burning fossil fuels in open systems did not have consequences? Again that just stupid. Of course it did.

200 years from now? The talk will be. "I can't believe they just burned ancient condensed carbon compounds for energy just to release its by products into the atmosphere and environment?" What were they? Stupid or something?"

Yes. We are stupid that very near future scholars shall recognize. But we can be the generation that points and says. "This is stupid!" That doesn't mean complete shutdown of today's power options. Even 200 years from today. There will still be gasoline to power ancient classic vehicles as part of nostalgia interests. It just won't be primary fuel source.
 
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That's today. And why do your side always go to complete replacement? It will take time. But green is the future. And I think you know that.

Did you really think that burning fossil fuels in open systems did not have consequences? Again that just stupid. Of course it did.

200 years from now? The talk will be. "I can't believe they just burned ancient condensed carbon compounds for energy just to release its by products into the atmosphere and environment?" What were they? Stupid or something?"

Yes. We are stupid that very near future scholars shall recognize. But we can be the generation that points and says. "This is stupid!" That doesn't mean complete shutdown of today's power options. Even 200 years from today. There will still be gasoline to power ancient classic vehicles as part of nostalgia interests. It just won't be primary fuel source.
I know I used the word "Stupid" alot. But all looks like that as viewed from the present. We used to use whale oil to light out lanterns. But nobody in their right mind would suggest going back to that?

The future awaits. And new economic winners will emerge from what I believe is the next economic revolution. Energy. The only question? Is it US? Or Germany, China that has a significant head start.
 
Do the math and get back to me. You're obviously not referring to anything you haven't been told is true.

To ignore the energy inputs required to build and maintain solar systems is lunacy.
Solar companies are signing up property owners here to set panels on their land like crazy here.
And the land that's going to solar is farmland that corn was grown on for ethanol.
There not gonna store the energy it produces, just goes back into the grid during the daylight hours.
 
  • we'll run out of oil while killing the planet
  • we'll run out of fresh water
  • we'll run out of ice for the polar bear
  • we'll run out of lumber
  • the sun will burn out
  • But none of it will matter because when the great meteor smashes into the earth, we'll all be dead anyways.
:lol:
 
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What came first gasoline or electric? Neither but what happened to steam and electric? Where do you get the”fairy dust” to eliminate the electric problems. Wind farms-solar panels-batteries as big as a bus?? You can’t even deal with the pollution that masks have created but now you are the epitome of future power intellect? Buck Rogers in the 21’st century/Star Trek? We have a problem Captain and it’s all these”fairy dust” visionaries.
 
Ethanol? :lol::lol:

jug of moonshine.jpeg
 
That's today. And why do your side always go to complete replacement? It will take time. But green is the future. And I think you know that.

Did you really think that burning fossil fuels in open systems did not have consequences? Again that just stupid. Of course it did.

200 years from now? The talk will be. "I can't believe they just burned ancient condensed carbon compounds for energy just to release its by products into the atmosphere and environment?" What were they? Stupid or something?"

Yes. We are stupid that very near future scholars shall recognize. But we can be the generation that points and says. "This is stupid!" That doesn't mean complete shutdown of today's power options. Even 200 years from today. There will still be gasoline to power ancient classic vehicles as part of nostalgia interests. It just won't be primary fuel source.


You only think this way if you’ve been programmed to think man is destroying the planet by burning gasoline or anything else.

Green like solar or wind will never replace any petroleum or alcohol based fuel. Or even something so simple as heating and cooling a home.

Neither one have nearly the energy to do the job. I’m reading through the book that the author of the link wrote. He is quite the utilitarian when it comes to personal transportation.

His love for LPG is quite misplaced. It’s a poor fuel for surface transportation if you want performance. LPG isn’t very energy dense.

Having driven many LPG powered vehicles I can say it’s just crappy to drive.

I’m totally unapologetic when it comes to my carbon footprint. That’s all made up crap to scare the population. Just another boogie man to control the masses thinking.
 
Do you know "what is"?

I’m not sure it’s just one chemical that does it. I haven’t got that far into it. I’m working on it. I suspect it is a reaction of two or more chemicals that is causing the issues.

My brother refuses to buy anything other than clear fuel for his dirt bikes and yard stuff. And yet, every year he is still cleaning his stuff up from letting fuel sit in it.

That should be his clue it’s not the ethanol in the fuel, but it hasn’t sunk in yet.
 
I read it, and it left me with more questions than answers, but it makes claims with certainty that I want to believe - they just stopped short of giving that info. I feel cheated, LOL.

I'd also love to know why GM was so dominating and always a darling in the eyes of the government. Having a monopoly on a strategic asset would make sense. What was it?

I meant did you search for the 600 page book that guy put together? It’s not really a book per se. It’s a collection of articles he’s written over the years about this stuff.

I’ll let the car out of the bag just so it can be argued about.

The author claims that GM was the dominating car manufacturer and retained that top spot not because they made the best cars (they didn’t IMO) or because they were the most forward looking.

He claims (and I don’t doubt it one bit) that Kettering (who was friends with Henry Ford BTW) was working on additives to make gasoline less detonation prone. So was DuPont and I think Dow chemical. I’d have to go back and verify the third one, but there were three separate entities working on it.

Any way, they all came up with tetra ethyl lead. Since Kettering was GM’s top scientist and he was partially (at least) responsible for “discovering” lead for anti knock purposes, GM was given a 3 cents per gallon royalty on ALL fuel sold.

Think about that! Over the years that right there was worth BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars that no other car manufacturer had. And they didn’t have to design, develop or build anything. They just sat back and collected the revenue.

That allowed GM to pay wages far above what anyone else could. Benefits too.

It also meant that GM could spend orders of magnitude more money on advertising. And that’s huge. Plus, they could sell could subsidize aftermarket parts and drive the costs down so Chrysler and Ford couldn’t compete.

That single revenue source made them the king of the market. For decades.

Of course, when unleaded fuel was mandated, all that revenue dried up. And it hurt GM. By that time GM was a bloated, slow, lethargic company that was set in its ways and was too top heavy to unscrew itself.

So lead made GM the top dog. And kept GM there. Who knew? I didn’t. But I have often wondered how GM could produce something cheap and crappy like the stud mounted rocker and sell it as the “best” system out there.

Or why the decks were shorter than everything else. Or why the driveline stuff was so fragile. Or how GM, for decades could produce a starter so crappy that racers made adapters so you could bolt a Chrysler starter to a GM car just so they would start. How many races were lost because some dude couldn’t get his junk GM starter to fire his engine?

And yet people bought this stuff. I now know that at least a big part of it was marketing that was only possible because they had a revenue stream no one else had.

I now wonder if all those efforts to make the general public think the ball/stud rocker was the best thing since sliced bread wasn’t funded by GM as a marketing tool.

You can t make this stuff up and truth is surely stranger than fiction.
 
That's today. And why do your side always go to complete replacement? It will take time. But green is the future. And I think you know that.

Now you're hallucinating opinions for me and arguing against them. Let me know if you ever get back to the topic rather than rambling about whatever it is you're worshipping.
 
I’m not sure it’s just one chemical that does it. I haven’t got that far into it. I’m working on it. I suspect it is a reaction of two or more chemicals that is causing the issues.

My brother refuses to buy anything other than clear fuel for his dirt bikes and yard stuff. And yet, every year he is still cleaning his stuff up from letting fuel sit in it.

That should be his clue it’s not the ethanol in the fuel, but it hasn’t sunk in yet.
I unnerstand. I know when Evan and I removed the tank from Vixen after she had been sitting since the eighties, we were totally expecting a crap fest, but the tank was almost spotless. I told Evan that it was due to non ethanol and possibly even some left over leaded gas. It has about 2" of gas in the bottom. It smelled like the obligatory "old gas" but I saved it and used it to start a barrel fire. It went POOF just like new gas would. I am sure it would have still run the car.
 
I meant did you search for the 600 page book that guy put together? It’s not really a book per se. It’s a collection of articles he’s written over the years about this stuff.

I’ll let the car out of the bag just so it can be argued about.

The author claims that GM was the dominating car manufacturer and retained that top spot not because they made the best cars (they didn’t IMO) or because they were the most forward looking.

He claims (and I don’t doubt it one bit) that Kettering (who was friends with Henry Ford BTW) was working on additives to make gasoline less detonation prone. So was DuPont and I think Dow chemical. I’d have to go back and verify the third one, but there were three separate entities working on it.

Any way, they all came up with tetra ethyl lead. Since Kettering was GM’s top scientist and he was partially (at least) responsible for “discovering” lead for anti knock purposes, GM was given a 3 cents per gallon royalty on ALL fuel sold.

Think about that! Over the years that right there was worth BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars that no other car manufacturer had. And they didn’t have to design, develop or build anything. They just sat back and collected the revenue.

That allowed GM to pay wages far above what anyone else could. Benefits too.

It also meant that GM could spend orders of magnitude more money on advertising. And that’s huge. Plus, they could sell could subsidize aftermarket parts and drive the costs down so Chrysler and Ford couldn’t compete.

That single revenue source made them the king of the market. For decades.

Of course, when unleaded fuel was mandated, all that revenue dried up. And it hurt GM. By that time GM was a bloated, slow, lethargic company that was set in its ways and was too top heavy to unscrew itself.

So lead made GM the top dog. And kept GM there. Who knew? I didn’t. But I have often wondered how GM could produce something cheap and crappy like the stud mounted rocker and sell it as the “best” system out there.

Or why the decks were shorter than everything else. Or why the driveline stuff was so fragile. Or how GM, for decades could produce a starter so crappy that racers made adapters so you could bolt a Chrysler starter to a GM car just so they would start. How many races were lost because some dude couldn’t get his junk GM starter to fire his engine?

And yet people bought this stuff. I now know that at least a big part of it was marketing that was only possible because they had a revenue stream no one else had.

I now wonder if all those efforts to make the general public think the ball/stud rocker was the best thing since sliced bread wasn’t funded by GM as a marketing tool.

You can t make this stuff up and truth is surely stranger than fiction.

I did find that. I think it's directionally true, but mostly junk. There were no good figures, and he asserted that GM somehow 'forgot' they were getting paid a fuel royalty and that's how they suddenly went bankrupt when it stopped. Seems like a leap of logic to me. I'm sure that their fuel royalty DID fund a lot of their dominance, but I don't think there was some major conspiracy that lead to them pushing those fuels. TEL was terrible, and not even very good at what it was used for and had lots of other drawbacks - but it was CHEAP. Costs drive every corporate decision, and so it's not hard to believe that rather than some smoky back-room deal ushered in by a shady cabal, it was simply GM pushing the cheapest and most cost effective systems available.

I also find it hard to swallow that GM somehow dominated the world fuel market. If ethanol was so much better than TEL laced gasoline, why wasn't Germany or Japan using it in the '30s and '40s? Surely they would have had a leg up on the US and allied powers if they had? Sounds more like market forces were what drove the adoption and widespread use of gasoline.

Ethanol does work well for what it does, but it's still more costly to produce, store and transport. There are ways to reduce those costs, and some companies are pursuing them. But everywhere I look, I am finding supporting evidence for ethanol being more corrosion prone than gasoline. Mostly due to the oxygen content, which is what makes it such a good fuel in the first place. Ethanol is 3 orders of magnitude less dielectric, meaning that it can carry current more easily than gasoline. It's miscible with water, and water always brings minerals with it. Minerals in solution make for an even more conductive fluid. Add the weak acid nature of ethanol to it, and it definitely has the ability to corrode many metals. Mostly cheap *** pot metal used in carburetors.

At the same time, is ethanol free fuel the silver bullet to avoid small engine issues? I dunno. Seems like all modern gasoline evaporates more readily which results in more gum, varnish, and gunk than in days past. I've tried running the normal 87e10 in all my small engines and motorcycles as well as the 'ethanol free' 89 and 91 I can get locally. They all seem about the same, but the 'ethanol free' does tend to take longer before issues show up. Since I store a bunch of stuff for 4 months at a time in winter a minor difference doesn't do me much good.

I still can't find anything about what would make BTEX corrosive, but I'm curious to find out because it's the first time I've heard that.
 
I did find that. I think it's directionally true, but mostly junk. There were no good figures, and he asserted that GM somehow 'forgot' they were getting paid a fuel royalty and that's how they suddenly went bankrupt when it stopped. Seems like a leap of logic to me. I'm sure that their fuel royalty DID fund a lot of their dominance, but I don't think there was some major conspiracy that lead to them pushing those fuels. TEL was terrible, and not even very good at what it was used for and had lots of other drawbacks - but it was CHEAP. Costs drive every corporate decision, and so it's not hard to believe that rather than some smoky back-room deal ushered in by a shady cabal, it was simply GM pushing the cheapest and most cost effective systems available.

I also find it hard to swallow that GM somehow dominated the world fuel market. If ethanol was so much better than TEL laced gasoline, why wasn't Germany or Japan using it in the '30s and '40s? Surely they would have had a leg up on the US and allied powers if they had? Sounds more like market forces were what drove the adoption and widespread use of gasoline.

Ethanol does work well for what it does, but it's still more costly to produce, store and transport. There are ways to reduce those costs, and some companies are pursuing them. But everywhere I look, I am finding supporting evidence for ethanol being more corrosion prone than gasoline. Mostly due to the oxygen content, which is what makes it such a good fuel in the first place. Ethanol is 3 orders of magnitude less dielectric, meaning that it can carry current more easily than gasoline. It's miscible with water, and water always brings minerals with it. Minerals in solution make for an even more conductive fluid. Add the weak acid nature of ethanol to it, and it definitely has the ability to corrode many metals. Mostly cheap *** pot metal used in carburetors.

At the same time, is ethanol free fuel the silver bullet to avoid small engine issues? I dunno. Seems like all modern gasoline evaporates more readily which results in more gum, varnish, and gunk than in days past. I've tried running the normal 87e10 in all my small engines and motorcycles as well as the 'ethanol free' 89 and 91 I can get locally. They all seem about the same, but the 'ethanol free' does tend to take longer before issues show up. Since I store a bunch of stuff for 4 months at a time in winter a minor difference doesn't do me much good.

I still can't find anything about what would make BTEX corrosive, but I'm curious to find out because it's the first time I've heard that.


Lol...it wasn’t a conspiracy. GM was given royalties. That’s all.

He did mention that there were parts of Europe using ethanol based fuels. I’ll have to go back and read that part again. Fortunately it’s early on so it’s easy to find. I probably ought to just buy the book. It’s easier to highlight and find things.

Japan...I’m not sure why Japan wasn’t using ethanol based fuels. If I was to make an educated guess, my best guess would be that Japan is an island. They don’t have a bunch of spare land to grow the corn or beets or whatever else you can use for making ethanol.

And that’s always been an issue for Japan. They just don’t have the real estate or even the natural resources on that island to do many things other nations can do.

As for Germany, they were still reeling from WWI. By the time they started using lead, Germany couldn’t feed itself, was over its head in debt and had a currency that was worth less than used toilet paper. I have no doubt they could have developed other fuels or alternatives if they could get out from under all that.

And let’s not forget the Germans were synthesizing oil and gasoline before WWII started. So they had the ability to do it if not encumbered by massive debt and the inability to feed itself.
 
Lol...it wasn’t a conspiracy. GM was given royalties. That’s all.

And let’s not forget the Germans were synthesizing oil and gasoline before WWII started. So they had the ability to do it if not encumbered by massive debt and the inability to feed itself.

It just read like a conspiracy, the way he wrote it, that's what I was getting at. I'd have liked if he had actual dollar figures to put toward his assertions to help paint the broader picture.

That's the thing with Germany, they were already producing energy intensive fuels, so why did they semi-independently arrive at gasoline also? Obviously it didn't happen in a vacuum, but it seems every nation arrived at gasoline despite regional variables which makes me think that there's economic factors that made ethanol less than ideal. If ethanol did have substantial benefits, we'd expect it to pop up in more places than one South American country that wanted to decouple their fuel sources from the world. Or maybe there's enough of a market that it's an export? I honestly don't know.

But there does seem to be drawbacks to ethanol, not the least of which is that you have to carry around more of it than gasoline. Which means that things like aircraft would have a tougher time using it as a fuel. Or in any application where weight is a significant factor. I know I don't want to have to haul 10gallon gas cans through the forest to cut my wood if I could use something else that allows me to carry 5 gallons! LOL.

I mean, TEL was known by most engineers to be terrible and that it would have far reaching consequences, but it was undeniably cheap and effective so they rationalized that it could be used safely "with proper precautions" - but we've all seen how many folks forego ear and eye protection even when they shouldn't... these days it's obvious that human factors need to be taken into account of any system and I wonder if that's the bigger problem with ethanol: that it might require different handling and interaction than a typical American isn't used to, but that if they adhered to might make it a more suitable fuel source?

I'm also still curious about the 'real' culprits behind gasoline and corrosion and how those mechanisms work, because it would be great to avoid! I just can't seem to find much beyond "ethanol absorbs water" - which may be true, but to what extent is that a real problem? I can't find hardly anything on aromatic HCs causing corrosion. But my limited memory of college chemistry tells me that anything with hydrogen in it can create an acid, I just don't know how.
 
... and I'll follow ^^ this post up with Ethanol has less energy than gasoline, and also causes harder starts in cold weather, not to mention shelf life. The biggest advantages of ethanol you can run more timing and compression with knock.
Propane, major boost of octane
 
That's today. And why do your side always go to complete replacement? It will take time. But green is the future. And I think you know that.

Did you really think that burning fossil fuels in open systems did not have consequences? Again that just stupid. Of course it did.

200 years from now? The talk will be. "I can't believe they just burned ancient condensed carbon compounds for energy just to release its by products into the atmosphere and environment?" What were they? Stupid or something?"

Yes. We are stupid that very near future scholars shall recognize. But we can be the generation that points and says. "This is stupid!" That doesn't mean complete shutdown of today's power options. Even 200 years from today. There will still be gasoline to power ancient classic vehicles as part of nostalgia interests. It just won't be primary fuel source.
Take your green energy to N+P.
The green deal is all political.
 
Take your green energy to N+P.
The green deal is all political.
It's actually reality. It's happening. All over the world. We either lead. Or follow. The science is not political. It's facts. And because it makes us feel sad? Doesn't alter the data.

EV is the future as primary personal conveyance.

Superior performance
Reduced maintenance requirements
Increased energy efficiency
Reduction of environmental impact

These not political. These are facts. I understand that frustration. I too wish that we can all live in a "Happy Days" bubble. But the future waits for no one.

Da Vinci
Franklin
Edison
Tesla
Ford

The list is too long. But they didn't fear the future. Thank goodness.
 
It's actually reality. It's happening. All over the world. We either lead. Or follow. The science is not political. It's facts. And because it makes us feel sad? Doesn't alter the data.

EV is the future as primary personal conveyance.

Superior performance
Reduced maintenance requirements
Increased energy efficiency
Reduction of environmental impact

These not political. These are facts. I understand that frustration. I too wish that we can all live in a "Happy Days" bubble. But the future waits for no one.

Da Vinci
Franklin
Edison
Tesla
Ford

The list is too long. But they didn't fear the future. Thank goodness.


It’s coming because it IS political and it IS being forced down our throats. Simple as that. The market doesn’t want it. The environment doesn’t want it.

You can think otherwise but even a simple study of “green” energy shows what a joke it is.
 
My Barracuda gets only non-ethanol only. Sometimes get trapped when traveling but not very often.
I too fill with non oxygen 91. I haven't seen any evidence of that blended fuels of similar octane have any negative effects. But all things being equal as far as availability? I will select non oxy. Being alcohol certainly tougher on seals, hose and other support components that are not designed for alcohol use? Would only suggest that a blend would also be tougher. Just longer to accumulate that affect.
 
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