Wheel Vintiques "Mopar Rallyes" (67 Barracuda)

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1badfish67

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Wondering if there is anyone out there running the WV 14x6 SBP (4.00" BS) on the front of one of these cars? Any clearance issues between the rim lip and the upper A-arm or the top of the upper ball joint? The upper ball joints in the car now have a square top side on them that is about 1/4"-5/16" tall with a zerk fitting in the center. Any idea what would be the minimum clearance up top. I don't live on a dirt road at this time, so may be no chance of mud getting up there.

I used an online wheel offset/back set calculator before ordering and it showed that for a 5.5"w (3.75" BS) and a 6" (4.00" BS) the centerline of the wheel would be in the same location. I realize their is an additional 1/2" of wheel width divided on each side of wheel centerline. Wheel Offset Calculator

I haven't got the wheel all the way on there yet as the center hole in the wheel is ever so slightly smaller that the O.D. of the hub. Wheel center I.D. (2.306"), hub O.D. (2.308"). There may be 0.002" powder coat on there? Sales folks I bought them from said if I put the lug nuts on there and cinched it up and scarred the finish they would not take the wheels back, so I wanted to check with FABO folks about any clearance issues, if any, they may have had with these WV 14x6 SBP (4.00" BS) wheel on the front of one of these Barracudas before I cross the Event Horizon.

Going to shop to try the wheel on the other side right now.

Car has the factory manual drum breaks on it. I scraped everything off the hub, then used emery cloth to shine it up to make sure nothing left on the hub.

Anyone know if there are manufacturers of these


Thanks Everyone
 
I was going to say I doubted that there would be a rim clearance issue based on a mere 1/4" additional width on the inside edge, but then I went out and looked under my car, a 67 FB with factory discs and 14 x 5.5 Mopar rally wheels. The clearance between the rim and the upper control arm was just under 1/2" (my small tape measure blade which is 1/2" wide wouldn't quite pass through the gap, although it might have been getting hung up on a wheel weight). So if everything else is equal, your new rims would leave slightly less than 1/4" clearance. Since this is fixed gap (unless your wheel bearing are failing), that may be OK, but I agree it seems tight. It didn't look like the ball joint itself would come into play. Although, possibly an oversized tire with a lot of sidewall bulge might cause a problem.

Suggestion: measure the real backspace of your current wheels, compare that to the real measured backspace of the new wheels, and place a lump of putty or playdoh slightly thicker than that on the inner rim of the old wheel, remount it and see if it hangs up, and then remove the wheel and measure to the contact mark.
 
Mine is a Fastback as well. Old wheels are US Indy aluminum mags. They have 3.375" backspace so plenty of room on them. I didn't have any mopar OEM wheels to compare. As I mentioned the upper ball joints currently in the frames have the square head on them and if they are installed with the flat side of the square parallel with the wheel it looks like there may could be between 3/16" and 1/4".

I just pulled off the other front wheel and the upper ball joint on that side is rotated so that one of the 90deg corners is toward the rim, so there looks to be even less clearance. New ball joints may have a round head on the top? Not certain on that.

***Also, regarding the tight fitting center hole I just got off the phone with the Manufacturing Tech Support group at Wheel Vintiques and spoke to them about the tight fit and that my hub dia was 2.309". The Tech there pulled up the spec for the 14x6 (5x4) 4.00" BS and told me I shouldn't have any trouble putting their wheel on the car because the hole should be 2.75" dia. I assured them it was not even close to 2.75" dia and that the holes in my wheels were ~ 2.306".

I asked them again if we were looking at the same wheel item number and they said yes, the spec they were looking at was for the SBP mopar rallye 6.00" width, 4.00" Back Set, 5x4. They said the 14x7 SBP (4.25" BS) should have the same 2.75" dia center hole. The 7's I ordered in this set also have the same 2.306" dia. center hole.

WV tech said that I needed to return them to where I purchased them and have them to get with WV to exchange the wheels and get the correct ones. From that conversation it sounds like a production run mistake on the manufacturing line.

I just like the Rallyes and wanted to dress up the car, since it has brand new paint job after taken down to bare metal and come back up. I have seen a few Barracudas of the 67 body style on FABO with the Rallyes. I couldn't tell if they were original Mopar manufactured wheels or aftermarket reproductions.


I am going to replace all BJ's, Tie Rods, Sleeves, Upper A-Frame bushings/lower bushings, torsion bar bushings (if they have them), drag link, brakes etc so I should be good on the tightness of the front end when I'm done. I may get another K-Frame and start with it. Engine and tranny are out of the car, so no better time than now to do all of this work.

Thanks. Appreciate it.
 
WV is nuts — small bolt pattern center holes are 2-5/16" (2.3125") — not 2.75" (that's FORD). 2-13/16" is Mopar large bolt pattern.

Don't you have an OEM spare lurking in the trunk? Anyway, you could still try my "putty" test using your mags. Just need a bigger blob.

Here's my 67 FB with OEM rally wheels.

IMG_4397.jpeg
 
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WV is nuts — small bolt pattern center holes are 2-5/16" (2.3125") — not 2.75" (that's FORD). 2-13/16" is Mopar large bolt pattern.

Don't you have an OEM spare lurking in the trunk? Anyway, you could still try my "putty" test using your mags. Just need a bigger blob.

Here's my 67 FB with OEM rally wheels.

View attachment 1716093174
Nice.

No spare tire/wheel of any kind. The car just had the US Indys on it when I bought it. I have never had it on the road. Drove it on the trailer when I bought it and right off the trailer into my shop and started stripping it, inside and out..

Maybe need to speak to a manufacturing tech at WV before I pack up all the wheels and ship them back? Sorry, this my first mopar. I don't have a clue about what the wheel dimensions are supposed to be but I learn a little more from FABO members and other research as I go.

I will give the putty trick a try. Also may go by a salvage yard and see if they have any old A-Body wheels lying around.

What are the widths and back set spacings?
 
Here's another trick, if you already have the wheel;
since the Rallys are centered by the tapered cone style nuts,
just install some large od washers on each of the studs to space the New wheels off the hubs, then gently run the wheel nuts down.
When the wheel is secured, you can go find the minimum clearance, and compare that to the thickness of the washers and then make the decision.

Btw,
Ima guessing that you are concerned about the scrub radius.
Having the vertical axis of the wheel in the same place as factory, is only important if the installed tire assemblies are also the exact same diameter as factory, else the scrub radiis will not be factory anyway.
I have run with the wheels offset up to 1/2" to the outside with no consequence that cannot be compensated for.
However, as the offset gets to be more than 1/2 inch, my car began to wander on asphalt roads and there is no alignment that I could put on it, that would fix it. I put the zero offset wheels back on, and it steered perfectly.
Next, I ordered up some 15 x 8 sbp WVs, with IIRC, a Zero offset, so a bs of 4.5", and mounted them up. What a battle that was: but it steered pretty good.
The 15s climb up over the SMALL BJs, but the zerk has to go. Also, I had to shave the BJs and the brand new wheels, little by little as I discovered some flex in the KH 4-pot disc-brake system, at full suspension droop. Eventually I got enough clearance.
But there was no way to use the clip-on style wheel weights.
To balance the tires, I first checked the balance of the wheel to find the heavy spot. Then installed the brand new tire, and re-balanced it. Next, I broke the beads and rotated the tire in the direction that I thought it needed to go. Eventually I got pretty close. I got the final imbalance with stick-on weights, moving them outside the interference zone.
Btw,
At the front, the tires rubbed on the sway bar, and at the back, the tires rubbed on the frame; both towards full lock. And, as I backed off the
4-post lift and turning, I applied the brake and promptly the tires rubbed on the bottom front corner of the wheel-openings. This I solved with a tin-snips. Because of all the rubbing I was glad when those brand new sticky tires wore out before the end of the summer, and I retired those WV Rally-wheels.
Back on in spring, went 14 x 7.5s with a 3.75 bs, with new 235/60-14BFGs. Nothing rubs and the BFGs slide predictably, so corners on the street, are just as much fun, with steering added by the rear.
When the BFGs wore out, I replaced them with Cooper Cobras with same results. And after that, I went back to the BFGs.
So, I guess, the point of my story is this; if you can, just stick with 3.75bs on 25" tires, and learn to power-slide, lol. You will be many many hours ahead of the game.
 
Here's another trick, if you already have the wheel;
since the Rallys are centered by the tapered cone style nuts,
just install some large od washers on each of the studs to space the New wheels off the hubs, then gently run the wheel nuts down.
When the wheel is secured, you can go find the minimum clearance, and compare that to the thickness of the washers and then make the decision.

Btw,
Ima guessing that you are concerned about the scrub radius.
Having the vertical axis of the wheel in the same place as factory, is only important if the installed tire assemblies are also the exact same diameter as factory, else the scrub radiis will not be factory anyway.
I have run with the wheels offset up to 1/2" to the outside with no consequence that cannot be compensated for.
However, as the offset gets to be more than 1/2 inch, my car began to wander on asphalt roads and there is no alignment that I could put on it, that would fix it. I put the zero offset wheels back on, and it steered perfectly.
Next, I ordered up some 15 x 8 sbp WVs, with IIRC, a Zero offset, so a bs of 4.5", and mounted them up. What a battle that was: but it steered pretty good.
The 15s climb up over the SMALL BJs, but the zerk has to go. Also, I had to shave the BJs and the brand new wheels, little by little as I discovered some flex in the KH 4-pot disc-brake system, at full suspension droop. Eventually I got enough clearance.
But there was no way to use the clip-on style wheel weights.
To balance the tires, I first checked the balance of the wheel to find the heavy spot. Then installed the brand new tire, and re-balanced it. Next, I broke the beads and rotated the tire in the direction that I thought it needed to go. Eventually I got pretty close. I got the final imbalance with stick-on weights, moving them outside the interference zone.
Btw,
At the front, the tires rubbed on the sway bar, and at the back, the tires rubbed on the frame; both towards full lock. And, as I backed off the
4-post lift and turning, I applied the brake and promptly the tires rubbed on the bottom front corner of the wheel-openings. This I solved with a tin-snips. Because of all the rubbing I was glad when those brand new sticky tires wore out before the end of the summer, and I retired those WV Rally-wheels.
Back on in spring, went 14 x 7.5s with a 3.75 bs, with new 235/60-14BFGs. Nothing rubs and the BFGs slide predictably, so corners on the street, are just as much fun, with steering added by the rear.
When the BFGs wore out, I replaced them with Cooper Cobras with same results. And after that, I went back to the BFGs.
So, I guess, the point of my story is this; if you can, just stick with 3.75bs on 25" tires, and learn to power-slide, lol. You will be many many hours ahead of the game.
Sounds like an adventure! I really hadn't made it to the checking scrubbing point yet, since the wheels have not been seated against the drums. Also, had not thought about the clip-on wheel weights for balancing. I was going to ask the tire shop if they could balance on the inside to avoid interference with the trim rings. Maybe use the stick-ons like those on the existing US Indys?

What type of wheels were those 14x7.5 with 3.75 BS, did you have them made custom?

Car currently has 14x8 SBP (3.375" BS) US Indys on rear and 14x6 (3.375" BS) US Indys on front. Currently running 235/60/14 on front and 195/70/14 on front. Think the 235's are about 25.1" tall and 195's are about 24.75" so pretty close to the 25" height you mentioned.

Plan was to tuck the rears in a little more so if the rear of the car got low the fender lip would not cut the tires so I bought WV 14x7 (4.25"BS) for rear and 14x6 (4.00" BS) for front. Those were all I saw of the Wheel Vintiques that were offered in SBP other than the 14x8 (4.625" BS) and they were on a long wait time.

Sounds like I just have to make a decision as to how bad I want to try to make these Rallye reproductions work for this car. I like the look but it may be more of a pain in the ..... I don't want to have to cut on the fenders since I am replacing the chrome fender well trim as well. The lower front parts of the front fenders had been partially cut away when I bought the car so I repaired them in order to have a mounting surface for the chrome fender moldings.

Thanks for all of the info.
 
Anyone know for sure if the WV trim rings and 5 bolt center caps will fit OEM SBP original Rallye wheels? Not sure of the widths and back sets offered by Mopar in 14 SBP Rallye (5.5, 6, 7)? I thought I saw on another thread that the some of the SBP 14" wheels in 5.5" width were 3.75" BS and the 7" were maybe a 4.00" BS??

If the trim rings and center caps will fit I may just send back the wheels only and see if I can find a "really nice" set of OEM Mopar original wheels here on FABO.
 
Scrub radius is not an issue since you are not changing the offset at all.

But AJ's idea about stacking some washers on the studs, then mounting the wheel is a good idea. Measure the clearance, then subtract the height of the washer stack. Even easier than my idea.

I don't think the factory Small Bolt Pattern rally wheel came in any size other than 14 x 5.5 — all those wider ones are either LBP or aftermarket. On another thread, someone was complaining that his factory trim rings didn't work on an aftermarket rally wheel. I can see how this would happen with different wheel widths and backspacing — that also affects the "frontspacing" — the depth the trim ring set into. So I'd say there are no guarantees there. But the center caps should fit — why would they be any different?

Oh, I just saw where someone posted a Facebook marketplace ad for a set of factory rally wheels ... don't know if you're on FB. The only contact info is through FB or I'd post it.
 
Scrub radius is not an issue since you are not changing the offset at all.

But AJ's idea about stacking some washers on the studs, then mounting the wheel is a good idea. Measure the clearance, then subtract the height of the washer stack. Even easier than my idea.

I don't think the factory Small Bolt Pattern rally wheel came in any size other than 14 x 5.5 — all those wider ones are either LBP or aftermarket. On another thread, someone was complaining that his factory trim rings didn't work on an aftermarket rally wheel. I can see how this would happen with different wheel widths and backspacing — that also affects the "frontspacing" — the depth the trim ring set into. So I'd say there are no guarantees there. But the center caps should fit — why would they be any different?

Oh, I just saw where someone posted a Facebook marketplace ad for a set of factory rally wheels ... don't know if you're on FB. The only contact info is through FB or I'd post it.
Yes I am on FB. Mostly just use it for Marketplace searches. I'll take a look on there and see if I can find the add.

So mopar didn't make a SB 7" wide wheel? Since I am currently running 235/60/14 on back and may possibly step up to 245/60/14 on the rear later I figured I needed at least a 7" wide wheel back there.

On the ring question I was wondering about the step distances on the wheel itself and the aftermarket rings hitting a step before they seat down against the rim.

I will go to my shop and give the washer option a go.

Thanks to both of you.
 
My 14 x 7.5s are aftermarket kidney-slots from back in the 70s. I forget the name just now, but they are "like" Ansen-Sprints. Was it ET-IIs?, I forget.
I took my 15x10 WV Rallys to a local wheel-shop, and had them move the spiders for a better fit. They did a good job. I put my 325/50-15 BFG DRs on those, which then just fit into the factory tubs without rubbing... albeit on a narrowed rearend with the springs moved inboard......... Yeah, I did have to do a lil pounding so I could corner without having to concentrate; but I only ever put a couple of miles on those.
 
My 14 x 7.5s are aftermarket kidney-slots from back in the 70s. I forget the name just now, but they are "like" Ansen-Sprints. Was it ET-IIs?, I forget.
I took my 15x10 WV Rallys to a local wheel-shop, and had them move the spiders for a better fit. They did a good job. I put my 325/50-15 BFG DRs on those, which then just fit into the factory tubs without rubbing... albeit on a narrowed rearend with the springs moved inboard......... Yeah, I did have to do a lil pounding so I could corner without having to concentrate; but I only ever put a couple of miles on those.
Thanks.
 
AJ, I just completed the washer method you suggested and it worked fine. It had to install 0.325" of washers in order to seat the wheel up flat. I then took a few measurements as best I could in the cramped space. These measurements are take at "Full Droop". See attached pics.

Pic2: Washers thickness in order to full seat wheel.
Pic3: The short bend is 5/8" from arm.
Pic4: The short bend is 3/4" from BJ. The BJ seems to fall just under the lip of the wheel.
Pic5: Just a downward looking view from up top. I believe that measurement was 3/8".

From what I can tell using the 5/8" (0.625") distance off the upper arm and subtracting the additional thickness of the staked washers of 0.325", if the wheel were actually seated the upper arm to wheel clearance would be 0.300". Little under 5/16".
From Pic5, if we subtract the stack of washers thickness we get a little over 1/16", so the lip of the rim in full droop position would be almost right over the outer edge of the BJ. Not saying ti would touch since I think it would fall below the lip.

Honestly the rubber cushions that lie between the upper arm and the cushions mounting location need to be replaced as they are crushed and cracked. Also not sure how much these distances may increase moving out of full droop position with engine/tranny weight in the car??

I did a second test with existing Indy wheels. In droop position there was 0.640" clearance between wheel and A-arm. When I let the car back down on the tires the distance went to 0.730", so it gained a little clearance of about 3/32". Will it gain more with engine weight, I don't know.

MVH, I got my hands on a scrap 4.5" SBP (3.50" BS) steel wheel and you were dead-on with the center hole diameter. I measured 2.313" and it slid right on like a glove.


Tried to attach some pics of the measurements but my internet is very slow today. I will try them again later.
 
That's great that you got your measurements. The rim location is constant compared to the pivot axis of the ball joint, but of course the "droop angle" affects the clearance to the arm itself, so it's good that you are checking all the angles. I'm not sure how the chassis weight would make any difference — the ball joint is a solid connection — flex in the inner control arm bushings or anyplace else wouldn't seem to matter, so long as the wheel bearings are good.

I haven't seen your pictures, but from your description it sounds like you might be OK.
 
Here are some other things to remember;
1) you need to also turn the steering wheel, lock to lock, in both directions to see what happens
2) account for wheel-bearing clearance
3) chit bends and flexes when you put 700,900,1100, or possibly even 1300 pounds on it in a corner and specifically, the strut rod does a wicked dance with that big-old bushing at one end, espescially during braking.
4) and then, and then, what happens as the BJs wear out?
 
Here are some other things to remember;
1) you need to also turn the steering wheel, lock to lock, in both directions to see what happens
2) account for wheel-bearing clearance
3) chit bends and flexes when you put 700,900,1100, or possibly even 1300 pounds on it in a corner and specifically, the strut rod does a wicked dance with that big-old bushing at one end, espescially during braking.
4) and then, and then, what happens as the BJs wear out?
I'll do the lock to lock tomorrow. On vacation all week, so got time to piddle with it.
 
While digging through some old stuff around my place I came across an old 5.5" Rallye with the 3.75" BS. Had the tire shop remove the old E-78 tire, brought it home, slid it on and it looks a lot better on clearance. Approximately 1/2" just as MVH said it was on his 67.

MVH, appreciate you taking the time to measure yours. I can live with that clearance.

Now need to place a wanted add for a pair of good clean 5.5" rallyes.


Thanks to both of you for your help. Maybe I can return the favor one day.
 
If I could ask another question.

What is the correct depth/step on the trim ring for the 5.5" Rallye wheel?

MVH, what is on yours?

Thanks again.
 
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