Would there be interest in a dodge TBI setup made for our cars?
- Thread starter 66plyValiant
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I think we all understand the point.
Main problem I see, with MPI is the intake, which has different bolt angles and much larger passages than an LA 318.
(I know, I know, with just "a little more work", you can drill and tap any intake for the injectors)
The TBI intake is a direct bolt on, if I'm not mistaken, and may not even be necessary.
...how about 2 TBI systems on a dual open plenum 4BBl intake with an O2 sensor on each exhaust?
it would be cheating the input signal, but.....
Main problem I see, with MPI is the intake, which has different bolt angles and much larger passages than an LA 318.
(I know, I know, with just "a little more work", you can drill and tap any intake for the injectors)
The TBI intake is a direct bolt on, if I'm not mistaken, and may not even be necessary.
...how about 2 TBI systems on a dual open plenum 4BBl intake with an O2 sensor on each exhaust?
it would be cheating the input signal, but.....
66plyValiant
Well-Known Member
the only thing wrong with MPFI is that it uses both a distributor and a crank sensor, the crank sensor in stock form won't bolt onto an LA engine and the transmission has to be modified to fit it, as well as a special flywheel or flexplate need to be run and the only 2 other possiblities I can think of is a flying magnet trigger on the crank damper or megasquirt running batched fuel injection which isn't that great compared to seqential fuel injection
66plyValiant
Well-Known Member
I was thinking about that, running the main TBI with all the sensors (map, throttle pos sensor AI temp sensor) then the second one would be just a throttle body with injectors, have a micro switch activate a relay when the second throttle body starts to open and turn the fuel pulse on, the o2 sensor used with TBI is a wideband so it should be able to handle and correct A/F mixture
but this is all to think about, if I make a kit and its successful I will go abit further and see how it goes
The Sasquach
Well-Known Member
I completely understand the obstacles there are simple solutions on the market, other than batch firing the injectors. A flying magnet on the damper just solved the crank position issue, and as for the Distributor ditch it go with an ecu that runs coil packs.
I'm not trying to discourage you I'm trying to show you what I beleave is a better path. David
I'm not trying to discourage you I'm trying to show you what I beleave is a better path. David
The Sasquach
Well-Known Member
I was born and raised in Georgia. .......... Prob has something to do with it lmao David
needsaresto
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I think we are talking about adapting and improving the tbi system,not using it in stock form. At least that would be me anyways. That chip burner is looking more atractive..
The Sasquach
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I hope I'm not being taken as unfriendly. I defiantly don't mean it in a negative or harsh way.
Well Coil packs greatly simplify the process, when it comes to charge distribution. and unless I'm wrong (I honestly haven't done nearly as much research into crank position sensing as I should I'm sure) a harmonic balancer could be used in much the same way as the hall effect pick up in the basic electronic ignition. I do foresee a problem with dirt and grime eventually causing a problem in time on a daily driver, unless there is routine cleaning.
OK I'm out no more thread hijacking. David
Well Coil packs greatly simplify the process, when it comes to charge distribution. and unless I'm wrong (I honestly haven't done nearly as much research into crank position sensing as I should I'm sure) a harmonic balancer could be used in much the same way as the hall effect pick up in the basic electronic ignition. I do foresee a problem with dirt and grime eventually causing a problem in time on a daily driver, unless there is routine cleaning.
OK I'm out no more thread hijacking. David
needsaresto
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I dont think this thread has gotten unfriendly,in fact just the opposite! I see it as a spirited debate on the merit's of tbi. Heck if there were a problem here the mod's would let us know right?
Now I'd like to tak about the performance aspect of tbi (or lack thereof ). There was something about inj size being limited. I realised this early on and also the cfm rating of a tbi unit isnt very high,550-600 cfm? That's when I thought using 2 tbi unit's set up like a dual quad system might work.Turned out it's no problem for affodable fuel injection. They said it has been done before,and no problem on my app ( big block mopar). So obviously the programming can be written to accomodate this as well. I'd say based on this info it's quite adapable and tuneable. Sure it's not as good as a Holley system etc,but it's no where near the cost. I think there's niche market for this. Might not sell many unit's but then again it will be AFFORDABLE.
Now I'd like to tak about the performance aspect of tbi (or lack thereof ). There was something about inj size being limited. I realised this early on and also the cfm rating of a tbi unit isnt very high,550-600 cfm? That's when I thought using 2 tbi unit's set up like a dual quad system might work.Turned out it's no problem for affodable fuel injection. They said it has been done before,and no problem on my app ( big block mopar). So obviously the programming can be written to accomodate this as well. I'd say based on this info it's quite adapable and tuneable. Sure it's not as good as a Holley system etc,but it's no where near the cost. I think there's niche market for this. Might not sell many unit's but then again it will be AFFORDABLE.
I might be wrong, but I doubt you'll get the transition to go smoothly. You'ld be better off tying the throttle plates together and adjusting the injector pulsewidth and spark curves.
66plyValiant
Well-Known Member
thats the thing the only way into a mopar ECU of this era is going with another one... there not programable but they are easy to find and would be best on a stock to mild build on a /6 to 360 and maybe stock bigblocks
That's what I thought you were going for to begin with. I don't have anything that it will work on, but I am really interested in what you come up with and how it works. It may not be for everyone, or every car. But it is something and it is an option in an area where few are available.
needsaresto
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Here are some aftermarket performance mods like chips for my GMC pickup which happens to have tbi.
http://www.jetchip.com/Shop/shopdisplayproducts.asp?sppp=10&catID=
I like the 6 pack chip option best!
http://www.jetchip.com/Shop/shopdisplayproducts.asp?sppp=10&catID=
I like the 6 pack chip option best!
BillGrissom
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Timely question since I made a junkyard run last Friday and saw interesting Mopar parts I hadn't seen before. I saw the small-block TBI intake in a Dodge van (recall). The TBI looked similar to the Holley Pro-jection on my 383, with the older round-top injector connectors (injectors gone). It had the same 3 bolt mount, so I expect a Pro-jection TBI would bolt up. My Pro-jection system has always been quirky, needing regular knob tweaks even with O2 feedback. The later smaller ECU seems worse than the earlier long box. The quirks are probably due to lack of sensors, using only throttle position and rpm. I read that the current system adds manifold pressure and inlet air temperature (>$1000). I think the Mopar TBI would work better with an after-market ECU like the Holley Commander 950 or Megasquirt.
Re vehicle speed sensor, I saw a 10-passenger (?) Dodge van with small-block (Magnum, recall) and what appeared to be an A-904 transmission with electronic pickup where the speedo cable would normally install. It looked like the standard hole (large hole of later models) with same hold-down clamp. Anybody seen those before? The tranny looked almost new. The van was painted Navy grey, maybe ex-military.
I agree with Dan, use GM when it makes sense. I don't think Mopar made carburetors, or even intakes. Some people get anal about having the correct oil filter, battery, hose clamps, ... but Mopar guys are less finicky, at least A-body guys. You can always keep your original parts to bolt back before you send your car to the museum.
Re vehicle speed sensor, I saw a 10-passenger (?) Dodge van with small-block (Magnum, recall) and what appeared to be an A-904 transmission with electronic pickup where the speedo cable would normally install. It looked like the standard hole (large hole of later models) with same hold-down clamp. Anybody seen those before? The tranny looked almost new. The van was painted Navy grey, maybe ex-military.
I agree with Dan, use GM when it makes sense. I don't think Mopar made carburetors, or even intakes. Some people get anal about having the correct oil filter, battery, hose clamps, ... but Mopar guys are less finicky, at least A-body guys. You can always keep your original parts to bolt back before you send your car to the museum.
If you're bound and determined to stick with a TBI setup, why not just buy the old Holley Pro Jection unit? Price? Really? You really think you're gonna figure out an "upgraded better" TBI system for less money than Holley did it for? I guess you could......maybe look at the Holley system as a guide. Might be worth checking out. I still would prefer some kinda multi point. I mean......if I go away from a carburetor.....I wanna go AWAY from one.
needsaresto
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I never looked into the cost of individual injector's. $150 sounds pretty cheap for performance oriented injector's. Is that a used price from an autowrecker's? In example;let's say I decide to do this for my 451. Now how expensive is it? I need an inj that will keep up to at least 650 h.p.
Before you jump on this,I was never going to install tbi on the 451 unless I could get performance out of it. The tbi was more for the 400.
slantsixdan
=..=
Because it's garbage.
I didn't say injectors. I simply meant getting the intake ready for them.
You'll get no arguement from me. I detest TBI in general and don't see why people are even interested.....but the Holley system could be used as a guide. However loosely.
slantsixdan
=..=
Let me be a little more specific: as TBI systems go, the Holley ProJection system was junk. The GM system was markedly better. And if you really don't understand why people are even interested, then you probably have the luxury of enough spare time and money that you don't have to understand. I agree with what seems to be your philosophical standpoint, that a job worth doing is worth doing right. But a junkyard TBI swap is vastly easier, faster, and cheaper than any kind of port fuel injection retrofit, and while the end result isn't as good as port fuel injection, it's still enough better than a carburetor to be a very cost-effective option to consider for those unable or unwilling to spare the time and money to do a port fuel injection swap.
Now do you understand why people are interested?
66plyValiant
Well-Known Member
the dodge TBI (holley branded) has 4 mounting bolts, its simular to a 2 barrel bolt pattern but different enough it won't bolt up without an adapter.
as far as I know the holley projection kit used a standard GM TBI unit which is 3 bolt (two rear bolts and one in the front middle)
Yes and no. Most yards down here will not let you pilfer around. So that means trying to find one that will and then trying to find TBI stuff that actually might be useable.....and not crushed. And about the money and time thing..........LMAO. I simply have always been good at building and tuning carburetors and carbureted fuel systems, so that's never been an issue for me. Remember too, that where I live (central Georgia) is not the coldest of climates and we general don't have to have immediate cold weather driveability. ;)
ateam
A motor can
> I plan to use (2) of Holleys GM 2bb tbi, 2" replacement units,(DIY contoller). They are rated at 670 cfm ea.This is going on top of eddy dual quad/plane manifold for gen3 6.1L. Dual plane should provide adequate torque range and I hope max power around 6,500 rpm. Being a 2,400 lb. car to burn corners, should get the job done. Onward, ateam.:mrgreen:
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