1972 Duster Build with my Daughter

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My Coronet is all factory parts with the original Compressor restored with a new seal and Ester oil and 134A. It has worked perfectly for 5 years now with the original hoses and valve.

Not surprising. The original hoses were made of nitrile. It was determined back in the early 90's, when systems were being studied to determine what steps would be necessary to retrofit an R-12 system to R-134a, that nitrile hoses which had seen at least a season of use would have absorbed enough mineral oil in their interior surface to act as a barrier against R-134a leakage. The same goes for the nitrile o-rings commonly used in R-12 systems back then. It was recommended that used hoses could be re-used if they were otherwise in good condition. It was also recommended that, if a hose fitting were disconnected, to replace the o-ring with HNBR (or neoprene). Any hose fittings that were not disconnected and had used but leak-free nitrile o-rings did not need to have the o-rings replaced. The same was true for used nitrile o-rings used in compressor body and shaft seals. Also, although nitrile o-rings are supposedly a bit more permeable to R-134a vs HNBR or neoprene, it was said to be acceptable to use nitrile o-rings during a compressor rebuild or shaft seal replacement if HNBR or neoprene were not available.

As a side note, it was during this period that many R-12 "retrofit" refrigerant blends were developed. They were intended to be near-drop-in replacements for R-12, with the main feature that they would work with the original mineral oil. A couple of these were HFC based, with the addition of small amounts of propane and/or isobutane to help carry the mineral oil, and those refrigerants carried the same hose and seal recommendations as R-134a. Most of the retrofit blends, however, were based on R-22. While they worked extremely well, R-22 severely swells nitrile and HNBR. For applications using such blends, the hoses had to be replaced with 134a-type barrier hose which has a neoprene-coated nylon inner lining. All o-rings had to be replaced with neoprene o-rings, including those in the compressor. Some people tried to use the original hose and nitrile or HNBR o-rings and quickly found that their system leaked like the proverbial sieve. Because of the requirements to change hoses and all o-rings, the R-22 based blends ended up not being used much, even though most worked better than 134a. Particularly on systems with stock tube-and-fin condensers. Some of the blends even gave the system more capacity than the original R-12 did, although they did run at head pressures similar to 134a rather than the lower pressures of R-12.

So at 32F I take from the charts that the super heat is 5 degrees higher with the 134A not 1. I would not be concerned about 1 degree either, can you help me understand the 1 degree?

You are going by absolute pressures, as you would with the EPR valve. Expansion valves work on differential pressures. In the temp range where evaporators work for AC and medium temp refrigeration, the delta P for a given delta T is nearly identical for both refrigerants. For example, at an evap temp of 30° (your daughter's system is probably running around 25°-28° saturated in order to give a 32° duct temp), the pressure of R-134a is 26.1psi. At 40°, it is 35psi, which is a difference of 8.9psi. With R-12, 30° is 28.4psi and 40° is 36.9psi, for a difference of 8.5psi. The difference between them over that span is only 0.4psi. The difference in temperature per psi is only about 0.05°F, so over a 10psi range the superheat would only change by about a half a degree.

All that said, you should still check the superheat to make sure you have enough. In refrigeration, 10° is typical. However, the specs I have seen for automotive valves is usually around 4°-6°. IMO, 4° is a bit close, and can risk a bit of flood-back if the valve hunts or evap pressure suddenly changes (i.e. with engine RPM). I'd like to see at least 8°, and ideally 10°, even if it causes vent temps to go up a degree or two. If the superheat is at least 8° under steady-state operation, I would leave it alone. Even if it is 12° or 15°, I'd leave it alone. You're getting excellent vent temps, so you're better off to protect the compressor even if it means warming up the discharge air slightly.
 
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This is great information. Is there anyone out there who rebuilds and repackages OEM air conditioning equipment commercially?
My original under dash stuff was cleaned and freshened when I did the rebuild on the car 6 years ago, but I have not decided what to do with proceeding under the hood with the AC. It’s the last thing left to do.....

I would highly recommend running the OE RV2 compressor. The typically retrofitted Sanden not only looks out of place, but it doesn't have the refrigerating capacity of the RV2. Granted, NJ isn't the hottest place in the US, but I still wouldn't want to downgrade the AC from OE.
 
Not surprising. The original hoses were made of nitrile. It was determined back in the early 90's, when systems were being studied to determine what steps would be necessary to retrofit an R-12 system to R-134a, that nitrile hoses which had seen at least a season of use would have absorbed enough mineral oil in their interior surface to act as a barrier against R-134a leakage. The same goes for the nitrile o-rings commonly used in R-12 systems back then. It was recommended that used hoses could be re-used if they were otherwise in good condition. It was also recommended that, if a hose fitting were disconnected, to replace the o-ring with HNBR (or neoprene). Any hose fittings that were not disconnected and had used but leak-free nitrile o-rings did not need to have the o-rings replaced. The same was true for used nitrile o-rings used in compressor body and shaft seals. Also, although nitrile o-rings are supposedly a bit more permeable to R-134a vs HNBR or neoprene, it was said to be acceptable to use nitrile o-rings during a compressor rebuild or shaft seal replacement if HNBR or nitrile were not available.

As a side note, it was during this period that many R-12 "retrofit" refrigerant blends were developed. They were intended to be near-drop-in replacements for R-12, with the main feature that they would work with the original mineral oil. A couple of these were HFC based, with the addition of small amounts of propane and/or isobutane to help carry the mineral oil, and those refrigerants carried the same hose and seal recommendations as R-134a. Most of the retrofit blends, however, were based on R-22. While they worked extremely well, R-22 severely swells nitrile and HNBR. For applications using such blends, the hoses had to be replaced with 134a-type barrier hose which has a neoprene-coated nylon inner lining. All o-rings had to be replaced with neoprene o-rings, including those in the compressor. Some people tried to use the original hose and nitrile or HNBR o-rings and quickly found that their system leaked like the proverbial sieve. Because of the requirements to change hoses and all o-rings, the R-22 based blends ended up not being used much, even though most worked better than 134a. Particularly on systems with stock tube-and-fin condensers. Some of the blends even gave the system more capacity than the original R-12 did, although they did run at head pressures similar to 134a rather than the lower pressures of R-12.



You are going by absolute pressures, as you would with the EPR valve. Expansion valves work on differential pressures. In the temp range where evaporators work for AC and medium temp refrigeration, the delta P for a given delta T is nearly identical for both refrigerants. For example, at an evap temp of 30° (your daughter's system is probably running around 25°-28° saturated in order to give a 32° duct temp), the pressure of R-134a is 26.1psi. At 40°, it is 35psi, which is a difference of 8.9psi. With R-12, 30° is 28.4psi and 40° is 36.9psi, for a difference of 8.5psi. The difference between them over that span is only 0.4psi. The difference in temperature per psi is only about 0.05°F, so over a 10psi range the superheat would only change by about a half a degree.

All that said, you should still check the superheat to make sure you have enough. In refrigeration, 10° is typical. However, the specs I have seen for automotive valves is usually around 4°-6°. IMO, 4° is a bit close, and can risk a bit of flood-back if the valve hunts or evap pressure suddenly changes (i.e. with engine RPM). I'd like to see at least 8°, and ideally 10°, even if it causes vent temps to go up a degree or two. If the superheat is at least 8° under steady-state operation, I would leave it alone. Even if it is 12° or 15°, I'd leave it alone. You're getting excellent vent temps, so you're better off to protect the compressor even if it means warming up the discharge air slightly.

Thanks for the details! The problem is measuring super heat is not really accurate. The only tap I have for getting the low side pressure is all the way back at the compressor in the head of one of the pistons. I would have no idea how to handle going through the muffler then through the ports where the EPR valve use be then into the head low side chamber.
 
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Thanks for the details! The problem is measuring super heat is not really accurate. The only tap I have for getting the low side pressure is all the way back at the compressor in the head of one of the pistons. I would have no idea how to handle going through the muffler then through the ports where the EPR valve use be then into the head low side chamber.

The pressure drop probably isn't too bad. I'm surprised that you don't have a Schrader port on the suction manifold where it bolts to the compressor body? You must be using a line set from a non-EPR vehicle?

I'd get the best measurements that you can. A slightly inaccurate measurement is better than no measurements at all.
 
The pressure drop probably isn't too bad. I'm surprised that you don't have a Schrader port on the suction manifold where it bolts to the compressor body? You must be using a line set from a non-EPR vehicle?

I'd get the best measurements that you can. A slightly inaccurate measurement is better than no measurements at all.

Nope original hoses and I have a NOS one as well. No Schrader valves on the line set.
 
Nope original hoses and I have a NOS one as well. No Schrader valves on the line set.

Ahh. OK. That means the Duster was originally a cycling clutch system, not an EPR system. I don't recall off the top of my head which models used which systems, but I do recall that the higher-end and/or large sedans used the EPR while more compact and/or mid-range vehicles used clutch cycling to control evaporator temp.
 
Ahh. OK. That means the Duster was originally a cycling clutch system, not an EPR system. I don't recall off the top of my head which models used which systems, but I do recall that the higher-end and/or large sedans used the EPR while more compact and/or mid-range vehicles used clutch cycling to control evaporator temp.

Yes the '73 system was the only year with a cycling sensor in the evaporator.
 
Yes the '73 system was the only year with a cycling sensor in the evaporator.

I thought all systems had an evap temp switch, including those using an EPR. EPR's have a setpoint of around 24psi at low load, give or take a psi or two. At that pressure, the saturated temp of R-12 is well below freezing. The reason the evaporator usually doesn't freeze is the temperature drop between the refrigerant on the interior of the evaporator tubes and the exterior surface. That temp gradient is dependent on the amount of airflow across the coil as well as the temperature and humidity of the air. It is possible for the evap coil to freeze on an EPR system if the return (inlet) air temp is sufficiently low and the air if fairly humid. Condensation is an insulator, and it tends to restrict airflow, so if the airflow is low (blower on low speed), the cabin is fairly cool (cool return air flowing into the coil), and the coil is good and wet, the clinging condensate can start to freeze around the tubes. Once it starts, it spreads because the developing frost further restricts airflow.

A properly set evap temp switch on an EPR system won't normally open. Only if conditions are right to allow frost to form and the exterior coil temp drops to a few degrees below freezing would the switch open, cutting out the compressor until the coil defrosts and warms up to a few degrees above freezing. In essence, the switch operates just as a freeze 'stat in an EPR system, rather than actually being the primary evap temp control.
 
I thought all systems had an evap temp switch, including those using an EPR. EPR's have a setpoint of around 24psi at low load, give or take a psi or two. At that pressure, the saturated temp of R-12 is well below freezing. The reason the evaporator usually doesn't freeze is the temperature drop between the refrigerant on the interior of the evaporator tubes and the exterior surface. That temp gradient is dependent on the amount of airflow across the coil as well as the temperature and humidity of the air. It is possible for the evap coil to freeze on an EPR system if the return (inlet) air temp is sufficiently low and the air if fairly humid. Condensation is an insulator, and it tends to restrict airflow, so if the airflow is low (blower on low speed), the cabin is fairly cool (cool return air flowing into the coil), and the coil is good and wet, the clinging condensate can start to freeze around the tubes. Once it starts, it spreads because the developing frost further restricts airflow.

A properly set evap temp switch on an EPR system won't normally open. Only if conditions are right to allow frost to form and the exterior coil temp drops to a few degrees below freezing would the switch open, cutting out the compressor until the coil defrosts and warms up to a few degrees above freezing. In essence, the switch operates just as a freeze 'stat in an EPR system, rather than actually being the primary evap temp control.

Nope the '73 was the only year. All rest from that era (like my '68 Coronet) only had the EPR and a low pressure cut out at the dryer.
 
Nope the '73 was the only year. All rest from that era (like my '68 Coronet) only had the EPR and a low pressure cut out at the dryer.
That is odd. With the EPR, a low pressure cutout won't protect against evaporator freeze. It will shut down the system if you lose most or all of the charge, but that's all.

I will have to go back and watch the relevant Chrysler Master Tech videos. They talk about which vehicles used the EPR and which used cycling, but I don't recall if they mention what pressure and/or temp controls each system also had.

Did you delete the EPR valve on your 68 in order to run R-134a?
 
Remember this Duster is a '73 Dart from the Dash forward including the radiator/radiator support/AC condenser.
Yes they do! UAC
CN 3330PF

How does one order it? Is it wholesale only?
so did you get the cn3330pf condenser for your daughters duster & will it fit a 1970 duster
I had my 70 duster in the shop to get it charged & was told i now need the 134a tip condenser
 
so did you get the cn3330pf condenser for your daughters duster & will it fit a 1970 duster
I had my 70 duster in the shop to get it charged & was told i now need the 134a tip condenser

Long story but I did not (remember this is a '73 system on a '72) and there is no _need_ for a condenser. What is the long story of your problem? I have spent a lot of time on this one and now get it. Listen to @MaxPF as well.
 
Found NOS piston, rod and gasket sets on eBay. Rebuilt the “rebuilt”. What a hack job. Polished oil pump parts and plates, new pistons and rods, polished the crank. Filled with correct oil level, added R12 fill * 0.80 of R134a Mixed with the NOS expansion valve it is cold as hell and quiet at hell. What a battle.
 
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Found NOS piston, rod and gasket sets on eBay. Rebuilt the “rebuilt”. What a hack job. Polished oil pump parts and plates, new pistons and rods, polished the crank. Filled with correct oil level, added R12 fill * 0.80 of R134a Mixed with the NOS expansion valve it is cold as hell and quiet at hell. What a battle.
I think all of my equipment is in top shape but it is a 1970 340 duster .
is the 1973 equipment any deferent than the 1970 ?
I don't think the shop I was referred to was wanting to work on a 1070 car.
I have r12 coolant but they didn't want to put it in.
I will try a deferent shop next week
 
I think all of my equipment is in top shape but it is a 1970 340 duster .
is the 1973 equipment any deferent than the 1970 ?
I don't think the shop I was referred to was wanting to work on a 1070 car.
I have r12 coolant but they didn't want to put it in.
I will try a deferent shop next week

Same basic design just the dryer was moved behind the grill.
 
This project was 2 years in the making but finally solved and finally DONE. Brrrrrr.

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Kaelyn and her sister took it for a spin.... they shut the AC off half way through their cruise..... they were freezing. Mission successful.
 
Long story but I did not (remember this is a '73 system on a '72) and there is no _need_ for a condenser. What is the long story of your problem? I have spent a lot of time on this one and now get it. Listen to @MaxPF as well.

You're using the original condenser? Is it serpentine, or tube and fin? What are the pressures? I'm just amazed, because I haven't seen many R-134a retros using the stock tube and fin condensers that worked that well and didn't have sky-high discharge pressure.
 
You're using the original condenser? Is it serpentine, or tube and fin? What are the pressures? I'm just amazed, because I haven't seen many R-134a retros using the stock tube and fin condensers that worked that well and didn't have sky-high discharge pressure.

Original condenser. The pressures on this 85F day were about 170 high and the low was really low, around 20, but it was cooling well.
 
Interesting. Again, 85°F isn't hot, but those pressures seem low. Especially he discharge pressure. The system sounds undercharged to me. When running at around 1500RPM, does the sight glass ever clear up?
 
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