440 head noise. Perpetual problems. Problem solved

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You need to listen to experience. I have seen first hand a broken flex plate or loose torque converter bolt resonate completely through the engine and sound JUST like valve train noise. It costs nothing to get under the car and eliminate that possibility.

You can eliminate the cracked piston and or bad wrist pin or rod bearing by pulling plug wires one at a time while running. When you get to the offending cylinder, the noise will either diminish significantly, or vanish altogether.

This is very easy diagnosis......that is IF you listen to those of us who have done it over and over and over for decades.
 
What else could sound like rocks in a tin can. Stops when in gear? Worn thrust bearing? Flex plate bolts or crank flange bolts tagging the block? Loose rod bolt on the windage tray? Timing chain on a slinger installed backwards?
 
So I took in all the info and I just can't seem to figure this one out. I went back out and tested pulling each plug wire off since now I kinda know what I'm listening for and there was no change in the sound. In got under it and bumped the engine and checked all the bolts and non were loose and the flex plate was not broken. So I started it and it's odd but for the first minute and a half there is no sound and then it starts off low and gets louder and louder and it actually sounds louder today than yesterday. When I put the car in drive or reverse the noise goes away. It seems to be right at the middle of the valve cover. If it was a broke ring or something wouldn't it be smoking? I'm out of ideas and I canceled my hagertys road side insurance or I would take it out and run it until it broke!
 
That even sounds like a cracked flex plate. Goes away in drive or reverse. Have you tried taking the belts off to rule out something in the belt drive? If the flex plate is broken around the crankshaft bolts, you will not be able to see it......until it gets really bad.
 
RustyRatRod said:
That even sounds like a cracked flex plate. Goes away in drive or reverse. Have you tried taking the belts off to rule out something in the belt drive? If the flex plate is broken around the crankshaft bolts, you will not be able to see it......until it gets really bad.
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Usually the first thing people actually see is a rusty line somewhere on the flex plate.:D
1. He got on it hard and all the sudden it's making the noise.
2. It's not there on startup, but gets louder as it warms up.
3. Goes away when put in gear.
4. Sounds like rocks rattling around.

Sure is adding up to a flex plate, and may very well be around the center between bolt holes and can't be seen.
If this were me in this situation I would pull all the converter bolts and push it back then take a good look with a good light.
 
So I went back out and bumped the motor and took a 9/16 and checked the flex plate and I have a super bright light and can see pretty far up in there and it looks great, doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it. So I started it again and again it sounded perfect for about 45 seconds to a minute then it starts rattling very loud and there's also this slight ringing sound kinda like a bell being rung. It's hard to hear because of the 440 beating the ground. I really don't mind working of this thing for as many hours as it takes. There's a rod run here in Cherokee nc this weekend and I was hoping on making all these corvettes, camaros and mustangs look sick but I guess not this time lol
 
Would a bad or broken flex plate only really make a sound on the passenger side at the valve cover? When it's running and I'm under it the sound is above my head at the valve cover and when I walk all around it the sound is distinctly coming from that passager side valve area.

IMG_3535.JPG
 
Ok I'm about to unbolt the trans from the engine and take a look at the flex plate. Do I need to unbolt the drive shaft and take the engine off the motor mounts? Sorry for all the questions and I appreciate everyone's help. This was a project that me and my dad had but he passed away and I literally have no one that knows anything about these that I can ask. Thank you.
 
MAN that sounds like a heat riser.

Oh and people with a lot of experience get tricked by flex plates.

You know, if you have to (and I have) you can run that thing with the V cover removed and feel everything while it's running.
Sometimes it gives you a clue when one rocker rattles more than others and things like that.
I push down on rockers on the valve end, the pushrod end, or even feel pushrods while it running to track things down.

I like to use a section of cardboard about 6 inches tall and as long as the head between the valve springs and the valve cover rail to keep oil from going everywhere.
 
I ran it without the valve cover on and did exactly what your talking about. I put pressure on each rocker or valve arm and seen no problem. They were all strong and tight. It funny cause I can hear the noise with the valve cover off but it's louder with it on. And I'm not sure what or where the heat riser is or how to check it.
 
The heat riser in the exhaust is on the passenger side right below where all the cylinders come together in the exhaust manifold.
If you do have manifolds check to see if there is a stud or a stud with a weight on it going crossways through the manifold just above the pipe flange.
Of course this only applies to cast iron manifolds, so if you have headers it doesn't apply.

See the thing is, there are really only three things that ring like any sort of bell on a motor.
Loose or cracked flex plate.
Heat riser butterfly
Loose pipe to manifold flange

The amount of time you say it takes to start doing it also sounds like it's exhaust heat related.
This is why I am so insistent about the heat riser (or loose manifold to pipe flange)
 
Gwywnc said:
There is no heat riser on this one. It's been removed
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All of it or just the outside parts? :D
Is the rod still there that goes through it?

Just trying to think of everything before you have to pull the trans and get a good look at the flex plate.
Have you run it with the converter unbolted from the flex plate yet?
(just long enough to eliminate that)
The plate won't usually make the noise if it's unbolted.
 
The noise is less when you put it in reverse or drive because the engine R.P.M. drops.
It sounds to me like a broken valve spring or a collapsed/damaged lifter or the cam is going flat.
That would cause extra slop in the valve train and explain a few things seeing that you changed the oil supplements...........
You could have wiped a lobe because of lack of zinc in the oil/supplement.
 
Outside the box.
CH-4B?
Maybe a piece of the crossover came loose that's rattling on the valley pan.
CH4B1.jpg


Naaaa.......
 
Dartnut said:
The noise is less when you put it in reverse or drive because the engine R.P.M. drops.
It sounds to me like a broken valve spring or a collapsed/damaged lifter or the cam is going flat.
That would cause extra slop in the valve train and explain a few things seeing that you changed the oil supplements...........
You could have wiped a lobe because of lack of zinc in the oil/supplement.
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None of that would make a bell ringing sound though.
He also said he ran it with the cover off and looked and felt all the rockers.
 
So how lame would it be if I drove the duster to the car show and asked some mopar guys what they thought was wrong with it? Lol
 
Gwywnc said:
So how lame would it be if I drove the duster to the car show and asked some mopar guys what they thought was wrong with it? Lol
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Only shame would be if it spit up on the way there, or the way home.

It's not lame to ask for help. I have fought with stuff for a long time and couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Let someone else look at it.
 
so I took the valve cover off and ran it and the sound is there but the aluminum valve cover must be amplifieing it some how. I have researched it and people describe the sound of a bad lifter as a tapping but this is not the sound I have. The sound I have is a rattling. So my question is if it's a bad lifter how can I tell which ones are bad? I have put pressure on all of them and none can be pushed down at all. There also doesn't seem to be any thing broken. I'm about to start tearing the top end off this pos and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
Have you actually looked at the plugs keeping track of where they were in the motor yet.
Nothing I have read so far leads me to believe it's in the valve train.
 
Found the problem. Turns out it was in the valve train. I didn't know it but there's actually an smaller spring inside the big spring on the valve and that inside spring is broken. Right in the middle of the head were the noise was coming from. Now I need to figure out what it's going to take to fix it. Thanks to the everyone for there help!

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Gwywnc said:
Found the problem. Turns out it was in the valve train. I didn't know it but there's actually an smaller spring inside the big spring on the valve and that inside spring is broken. Right in the middle of the head were the noise was coming from. Now I need to figure out what it's going to take to fix it. Thanks to the everyone for there help!

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DOH! :D
Glad you found it.
Still can't figure out what the bell sound could be coming from.
 
Lol, I'm thinking a hardened spring (or damper) can have a ring, can't it?
 
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