64 Dart alignment issues

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vpmopar

vpmopar

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I have a 64 gt conv, v8 4spd. Everything in the front end is new. All the ball joints, tie rod ends, and idler arm are real Moog parts, no Chinese junk. New upper and lower control arm bushings. New strut rod bushings. The power steering box has been replaced with an Atsco rebuild for a later model Dart (73 up) and a pitman arm from Rare Parts in Ca. The pump is a used unit I bought off of this sight, and the pressure hose is custom made. New 215/70/14 tires on front. Now the fun part. The car will not self center after a turn. It drives straight and the power assist feels fine. If you turn to the left, the wheels stay to the left. Ditto to the right. Two alignment shops, $$$ , one was supposed to be an old car speacialist, could not fix the issue. The speacialist told me it was just tight and drive it 1000 miles and see what happens. ANYBODY HEARD OF THIS? Anybody got any ideas where to look for a fix?
 
How much caster did they put on it? You will probably want all that is possible and you may want to use some offset bushings or other modification to get more than is available with factory style setup. If they set it to what the charts say for your car you will never be pleased.
 
From their readout. caster left 2.3 right 3.2 said that was all they could get
 
it'd have to be either bad pump or bad box & I didn't know that the later box/pitman would even fit but wait for some better informed guys to chime in. The valve on top of the box might need adjusting
 
I'll agree that making absolutely positive that the new parts are compatible with your car!
That being said these cars didn't have enough caster available from the get go, with power steering you may need to step up to a set of upper control arms that will give more. I got a set from Firm Feel, that did the trick on a '67 (not mine) up to twice what you have wouldn't hurt. I think that much caster split is excessive.
 
The pitman arm is a custom piece that Rare Parts makes exactly for this application. Don't ask how I found this out. Steering box from Ebay supposed to be rebuilt, turns out junk, discover this after finding out it is a later box and sourcing the pitman. That's why it has a new rebuilt Atsco box. Will the pump affect the wheels self centering? It's the only part that has not been changed, but the assist feels fine, so I assumed it was ok.
 
There are 4 things that affect the steering return; 1)SAI, 2)caster,3)tire pressure, and 4)Tight new parts.
1)SAI you can't do anything about, it's built-in, engineered by Chrysler, and it ain't enough IMO
2)caster; more is better. But typically we set that to the same on each side of the car, so it does not create a pull. If you travel on heavily crowned roads,up to 1/2 degree extra can be dialed in, on the right, to cancel the crown-induced pull. Your caster numbers suck; 2.3/3.2 is 9/10* greater on the right. Thats a lousy cross caster and should create a pull all by itself.
3)tire pressure; more is better, until it wears the tire.
4)tight new parts; Absolutely,new parts can create issues.Anything that prevents one side of the car from rising during a turn, will affect steering wheel return. So; tight BJs, preloaded CA bushings,tight shocks, etc. So will inadequate clearance in the idler arm cradle, or a tight pitman ball, or tight T-rod balls, or a too tight adjustment in the sector shaft.

So the alignment guy might be right about acquiring more miles. But if he screwed up on the cross-caster, it kinda makes one wonder what else he mighta screwed up.
 
I had this same problem with my new Moog lower ball joints. One was binding. I replaced them with the O'Reilly house brand...no problems now. I complained to Moog customer service and they didn't seem to care too much (they had been on the car 6 or 8 months...and I wasn't expecting a refund or anything).
 
Thanks for all the input. I might try different lower ball joints and I think I will for sure go with an offset upper bushing. I've never had such problems with drivability on any car I built before, but this one has got me. Two different shops and neither one could figure out the problem. I hate taking my cars anywhere to have anything done, but an alignment sure seems like you need special equipment to do it right. I guess now I need to find someone who knows how to use it.
 
Pop the spindle from the lower ball joints and try to move them through their travel...if they're sticky, you've found your problem.
 
Take the shocks off and the pitman arm off the box, then cycle the parts up, down and around.You will find it.Or it will be in the steering box.It's just a process of elimination.The control arms should have been tightened last and at ride height.
 
Thanks again. Over the weekend I will pull it apart, again, and follow these suggestions. I will report back what I find.
 
A good alignment can be done with a tape measure and a level if the person doing it understands where and why the adjustments are made.
Upper and lower ball joint centers via the offset bushings with the level, Camber with the level, and toe with the tape measure.


I don't trust anyone else to do anything any more, and I'm sure not paying someone to mess it up.
I can do that myself for free if that's what I wanted. :D
 
That should be plenty enough caster to make it return. However, it should have a pretty hard pull to the left with those caster measurements. If it does not and if it does not return properly, they might be right. It could have something too tight.
 
I'm not expert on power boxes. Would a problem in the box, or valve, cause this?
 
Is it lubed correctly? Seems like a simple thing but I had to ask.
 
You might jack the front wheels off the ground, get them pointed straight ahead, start/idle eng & see if the wheels pull to either side (spool valve adj issue). that'd be easy to do (& free!)
 
In all my cars, even big 65 Newport w/ p.s., I can move the front wheels by hand (and watch the steering wheel spin). This is with the car supported on the frame rails. If you can't, surely something is binding. While there, also do post #18, which is in the factory manual and should always be done when installing a new p.s. gear.

True comments on "not enough caster", which is due to the cars being designed for bias-ply tires which deflect to put the "contact patch" further aft when driving. Caster is the "shopping cart" effect where the fronts want to follow the car. It is critical if you want to tow-bar the car and have it follow. However, I don't think it causes the steering return effect. I understand that comes from the tires leaning inward as you turn (i.e. changing camber), so the weight of the car makes it return, or such. For more caster, you need to move the lower ball joint forward or the upper one aft. Offset bushings allow that, but do not install them per the instruction sheet.
 
Thanks everyone for the feedback. I was unable to check on anything this past weekend, but plan to use all of these suggestions at the first chance I get.
 
Alignment shop had trouble getting my 65 dart aligned properly took them awhile they ended up having to adjust the K frame alittle bit. My car must've had some front end damage at one time. Just a thought. Dustin
 
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