Anyone know Holley Commander 950's? programming?

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67Dart273 said:
This thing is stupid simple. The only sensor it has is the TPS, the coolant sensor, and pressure regulator. You can buy an optional O2 harness ... There is no charge temp sensor.
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That is why people love/hate it. Using just TPS and rpm is termed "alpha-N" control. It is a rough way to infer inlet air flow (to set fuel injector flow) and is mainly used by race cars that don't have a good Pman vacuum signal. The O2 sensor corrects in the end, but the computer seems to give it limited authority, so you can get out of range. When the O2 LED flickers, you know it is controlling by O2 feedback, but your 2D box doesn't have an LED.

67Dart273 said:
By the way, how do you insure the lack of a ground loop problem on a one wire (Bosch) O2 sensor?
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I found good info on O2 sensors on some site, probably Megasquirt. There are 3 wiring systems for classic "narrow-band" sensors - 1 wire, 3 wire, and 4 wire. 1-wire and 3-wire use the exhaust pipe as sig-, while 4-wire uses a dedicated sig- wire. 3-wire and 4-wire have 2 wires for a heating element to get the sensor to operating temperature faster. The earliest ones (my 82 Aries) were 1-wire. There is a standard color code for all. All have the same thread. Mainly just connectors vary. You can find "universal" ones on ebay where you cut the old connector off your old sensor and butt-crimp to the new one. Wide-band O2 sensors usually have 5 wires and the Bosch connector is most common. I think running sig- thru the exhaust pipe is fine since it has worked for years, though a dedicated wire is always better.
 
Well today I received the O2 harness (optional) from fleebay for about 20 bucks. It fits the sensor connector used in the Commander sensor.

So I installed the temp sender, and the O2 hookup. This was late this aft. and I havent had enough time on it to tell if things made a difference.

The troubling thing about this is that it seems erratic. It will run OK for awhile, then the next time you "leave" a stop sign, acceleration is balky. Sometimes hard to figure if it's rich or lean.

I'm beginning to think the CPU has problems. I've got the fuel pressure resolved, and would have thought that a stable 200 ohm resistor in the temp sender circuit would have AT LEAST made the system "predictable." (After all, many/ most? carbs are not temp compensated)

If the weather is nice tomorrow, I may get some "toon time" on 'er.

Hope that Commander upgrade kit gets here soon.
 
It could be the "accelerator pump enrichment". On EFI it is done by looking at the change in TPS value. It triggers additional time for the injectors and decays it time. It should also clear when the throttle is returned to idle.

It is possible the the TPS is providing a noisy signal, or other noise is getting there. I have experience off idle hesitation on OEM vehicles related to high mileage TPS, where using an ohm meter did not detect fault, but a new TPS solved the problem.

I scope on the TPS output as you crack the throttle may give insight. Also monitoring the 5V supply that is used for sensors is important. It should be stable. The voltage is referenced by the analog to digital converter, so a problem there is widespread, for all analog measurements. Other adjustments to consider would be the TPS value at idle, there is often a small pre-load so there is not back lash, and the values that are set to deliver the enrichment.

Correctly implemented, throttle based acceleration enrichment in EFI is far superior to a carb. It works so well, I would not know how to improve.

I developed my own methods, but yours could be similar. My settings relate to a threshold throttle change, and fuel volume. The delay is not time but ignition intervals decay the value, this works well because at higher RPM, less enrichment is desired.

There may also be Apha-N adjustments. This is throttle based enrichments based on angle. For a MAP system, I typically zero the enrichments at RPMs below cruise. This for me is below 40% throttle, then above that (foot into it), provide additional additional ramp for power enrichment (AFR ~12). This provides good economy for normal driving, and enrichment when you need it.

All this changes if you have WBO2 and mixture tables.

If you do not have MAP, I have no idea how to make it work well.
 
The TPS certainly crossed mind, and is a good suspect. There ARE people using these, so they can't be as bad as this thing is acting, or guys would be bombing Holley headquarters.

I haven't really got "all that much" time into this thing, a great deal was spent fussing with the over--pressure problem.

This thing has pots to control

choke enrichment (over a fixed amount of time)

idle, which must be set after the main, as the main seems to affect everything else

main

acceleration, "same thing as pump shot" as explained by Holley

high speed, IE over 3000 RPM.

I also thought about dirt/ corrosion / other "looseness" on the CPU connector, so I'm going to check that out. This was a little dirty, IE must have been used off road. If nothing else works, I'll check the control pots themselves, maybe reset the prom in it's socket.

Here's the book on the thing:



[ame]http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/199R9777-6rev1.pdf[/ame]
 
I did a fast read of the manual. It is much different than what I expected. The use of potentiometers for settings seems odd. It seems like they wanted those adjustments for those not good with computers. Setting are often more sophisticated, and done with PC link.

Since the system does not have a MAP sensor, it is going to be very dependent on the TPS. The coolant temperature sensor also plays a good bit for the starting and warm up.

Noise may be an issue. Using resistor plugs, suppression wires is important. Wire routing of the ECU, to avoid induction from ignition primary and secondary is very important. The plug wires form a loop (from coil-dist-plug-engine), wires inside the loop (under plug wires) are induced. Keeping the ECU wiring close together (like a lamp cord) minimizes loop area by common mode suppression. I am likely preaching to the choir. However in the excitement of wiring, to go for the first try, there may be overlooked issues.

Using a scope to view injector pulse width for changes, and when problems exist may help.
 
Yeh heh. "when I get time." I just got done looking at the TPS with a meter -- it has an analog ramp on the bottom of the display--and it SEEMS pretty smooth. I may change it "just because."

But this is not a temp thing. It will run OK for a bit, then the next time you make a stop it may suddenly act up. Makes no matter if the O2 is online or not. Makes no matter if the temp sender is operational, or my dummy 200 ohm resistor is in the circuit.

Unfortunately, it does not have an IAC, so I cannot use this body for experiments/ comparisons with the Commander, either.
 
In many application I use a Neon IAC. It is a solenoid valve that provides throttle bypass air, and is driven by PWM (pulse width modulation) with just one low side mosfet. It opens in a linear fashion based on duty cycle. I used it with some modifications, to replace the idle control motor on the Turbo 2.2L TB. I also use it in a universal way on VWs with hose connection on a simple manifold. With a MAP system, fuel is automatically added to match the air. The idle speed control was very stable. I have a bunch of them, and will send one if you think you can use it. It will be a way to make your 4B-TB work with an improved ECU that has MAP. I will post a picture in a day or two.
 
Well I finally made some real progress, l although I don't have it fully tuned, it seems more stable, and performs WAY better

1--Tore the controller apart, "douched" the grease/ dirt off the board, and reseated the prom in the socket several times

2--cycled all the adjustment pots through their range about 20 times

3--I had not liked how the pressure regulator acted, seemed touchy, and I think someone may have put a larger spring in an attempt to get more fuel. I found a smaller spring out of a compressor pressure switch, and the pressure now adjusts nice and smooth up, to, and past the 21 PSI spec.

4-- Checked the TPS with an ohmeter carefully, and could not find a problem. But I replaced it with the one off the Commander. I'm not sure it's the problem, I'll swap it back on tomorrow.

Overall runs MUCH better and seems more predictable and stable.
 
Here is the Neon IAC. It is shown with the hose manifold that I fabricated, the port nearest to solenoid connects to manifold, the other to air cleaner. This has proved simple and reliable for me.
 

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About the fuel pressure. I have heard that on TBI, if the fuel pressure is too high it can keep the injectors from opening properly. The solenoid has to force past the fuel pressure.

Flow is the the square root of the pressure difference. So if you double the pressure it makes only a 41% increase in flow. I would think for a small block, the stock flow will be good enough. It is important to have good resolution at the low end for decent idle.
 
Well it certainly "behaves" much better now. As I said, tomorrow the original TPS goes back on and I'll see if that makes any difference, then try to get some more tuning done. It was towards late afternoon, and the Friday aft. traffic was getting wound up, so I certainly didn't want to be playing in that.
 
OK, update to the update. Got the Autometer (narrow band) O2 display mounted and wired

("Thanks," Holley, for NOT documenting your damn wiring harness)

And FINALLY (blush) got an oil gauge in the car (idiot light) only to find that I have PLENTY of oil pressure, 40 psi at idle, 50-55 at high RPM

This thing, generally, is running MUCH better, but it's raining on/ off, and NOT a good time for "tuning"

If we ever get some more "dry" days, I'd like to get the G-tech in the car and do some comparitive acceleration between the AFB and this system. My "seat of pants" thinks it doesn't have the 3K RPM and up "punch" of the AFB. (These only support 275 hp engines) which is odd, because it has some GIANT throttle bores.

There was a warning in the manual about headers cooling and affecting the O2, which is a 3 wire. I may buy some header wrap and insulate the collector area, see if that helps.
 
At least you are no longer "flying blind". Like I said, why the h*** didn't Holley put a rich LED on the 2D box? There is one on their clumsy add-on O2 box for the analog system. With my 2D box, I had to tap into the O2 sensor wires to send to a Holley rich/lean indicator box.

The original system was designed by Autotronics (MSD) for Holley and it was a bit better in my opinion. Possibly Holley designed the 2D box in-house and seems they botched that. Your experience with it having a "mind of its own" is similar to mine. I suspect the pot's are erratic. I also suspect it is affected by RFI since the 2 times it went crazy at the exact same spot on the highway by road construction. "Crazy" is a technical term meaning it flooded the engine with fuel (slowed way down) and then the muffler exploded (both times).

There are a few setups to make in commissioning it. Insure your TPS is adjusted to give the correct signal at idle (~0.8 V I recall, but read manual). There is also a setting for small block or big block, which you do by a switch in the analog box and by connecting the pink(?) wire to gnd or +12V in the 2D box. The later makes it harder to switch between the analog and digital boxes since the pink wire is something else for the analog box. Don't spend excessive time trying to adjust the 3 knobs perfectly since whatever you do, you will end up having to tweak them once in a while to keep from stumbling, so keep the box close (but not in the sun since it can get real hot easily and act bad).
 
Well today "it's done" I went back to the AFB until I get the flash done on the Commander 950, and then I'll argue with THAT

Issues:

Ran pretty good generally, but does not seem to produce as much power as the AFB

Erratic, unpredictable low RPM launch. REALLY does not like a "performance launch" and I'm not talking about anything more than a stoplight/ down the highway. At least twice it went "full rich" and killed the engine, several other times stumbled for a few seconds before deciding to run.

Cruise and high speed OK, but still does not seem to have the seat of the pants power of the AFB.

LOL I hooked up the autometer to the single wire sender I had and it rarely "gets off" the rich end peg, even at idle. (Might play with that a little)
 
Del,

You did good to stop before going crazy. The system lacks necessary sensing means to work correctly without constant fiddling.

Even the Bosch D-Jetronic introduced in 1969 had manifold pressure sensing via a LVDT (linear variable differential transformer), charge air temperature, bi-metalic idle control valve, and direct acceleration enrichment via special multi-contact TPS switch. They ran quite well, but were very engine specific.

The Commander with MAP and other sensors is a huge step ahead.
Your idea of using the 4B-TB for the 950, is well worth the cost of your system.

Send me a PM if you want me to send an ICV. Another common way is to use ignition timing to control idle speed. It depends, if the 950 has the ability in firmware.
 
67Dart273 said:
Well today "it's done" I went back to the AFB until I get the flash done on the Commander 950, and then I'll argue with THAT

Issues:

Ran pretty good generally, but does not seem to produce as much power as the AFB

Erratic, unpredictable low RPM launch. REALLY does not like a "performance launch" and I'm not talking about anything more than a stoplight/ down the highway. At least twice it went "full rich" and killed the engine, several other times stumbled for a few seconds before deciding to run.

Cruise and high speed OK, but still does not seem to have the seat of the pants power of the AFB.

LOL I hooked up the autometer to the single wire sender I had and it rarely "gets off" the rich end peg, even at idle. (Might play with that a little)
Click to expand...


Now you know why they are always for sale on ebay and they are cheap.
Using the throttle body as an upgrade for the factory GM throttle body was the only thing worth grabbing but even then you had to drill for the IAC and install the stock GM/Delphi injector pod on the Holley base to make it work correctly.

Good to see you quit wasting your time.
 
Well here we sit, waiting for the mailman. I sent the Commander ECU back to Holley for the "pro" upgrade, which has better software as well as wideband O2 capable.

THEN immediately after, I found a good deal on an already upgraded (newer) ECU on th' Bay, so I'm waiting for BOTH of 'em.

Soon as one of 'em gets here the Commander goes back into the Dart. It's on the hoist now, trying to define a strategy for the permanent mount of the new pump. Ain't much room back there. The red pump was mounted up on the trunk floor above the tank, but Holley specifies this one must be LOW. I REALLY don't want to mount in clear to the rear, but might

I was considering shoehorning it into the small pocket just forward of the front spring perch, but it's TIGHT in there.
 
Well last couple of days were fruitful. Yesterday I got an ebay ECU for a spare, is already a "pro" upgrade. Today I got my old ECU back from Holley all upgraded. "The twins:"

Also, in the last day and a half, I got the thing on the hoist, an shoe-horned the EFI pump into the pocket ahead of the spring hanger. Holley claims this pump must be mounted at the bottom of the tank or lower, and that's the only place I could figure that would protect it while keeping it away from the tires, and exhaust heat, etc. Excuse the poor photo, it was shot on the ground.

AND............sometimes ya just havta kick the OSHA inspectors out and DO it. I needed to move it from the back, off the hoist, around front under the carport, as rain/ snow is a ' comin. So.......

Hopefully tomorrow the EFI goes back on the car (semi) permanently.
 

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Re the fuel pump, you should have read my posts first. I originally put mine back there in my C-body (where there is much more room than an A). Now all my EFI pumps are in the engine bay. Works fine, easy access, and stays clean. Don't believe the instructions in the Holley manuals that you must mount in the rear, below the tank. I am a mechanical engineer, so allowed to think for myself. I bet you will hear the fuel pump real well thru that frame rail.
 
Actually Bill, it's quieter than the red pump which I had taken great pains to mount. I had added more rubber under the clamp bracket, and drilled the bracket holes (works like an ignition coil) to accept large rubber grommets and washers, and that thing was "impressively loud."

The new pump is much quieter, and once the engine is running, I cannot hear it at all. I'm happy with that.

I just got in from (for me) along day, got 'er installed and fired. Runs "reasonable" on the base map everywhere but top end, but it was raining by the time I got a short hop in. Nice day all day until this evening near dark, not unexpected.

Next plan is:

Plx wideband O2 setup, which is much cheaper than Holley, but comes with a nice display and will interface with the Holley system:

http://www.plxdevices.com/

And "Tom's" cheap "autotune" sofware supposed to be much easier to set the system up. I'm checking on a current price, but the last one I saw was only about 15-20 bucks.

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3857

The not totally unexpected weather:
 

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And, last night I...............................

LC-1, software and cables, O2 sensor, and meter, and it will hook up to the Holley stuff. Free shipping at that price. Think of it as "saving a trip(s) to the dyno."
 

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BillGrissom said:
Re the fuel pump, you should have read my posts first. I originally put mine back there in my C-body (where there is much more room than an A). Now all my EFI pumps are in the engine bay. Works fine, easy access, and stays clean. Don't belief the instructions in the Holley manuals that you must mount in the rear, below the tank. I am a mechanical engineer, so allowed to think for myself. I bet you will hear the fuel pump real well thru that frame rail.
Click to expand...

I'm no engineer but I have been installing and running EFI for the last 14yrs.
The pumps that are used for EFI are made for pushing fuel not lifting or drawing fuel.
So they work best mounted as close to the tank and as low as possible. This allow the fuel to syphon feed to the pump so it does not need to lift the fuel before pumping it.

Having it mounted in the engine compartment can also lead to excess heat and possible vapor lock.
Yes EFI can still get vapor lock.

So while there are lots of things people get away with and then say it works fine, it doesn't always mean it's the correct way to do it.
Nothing is more frustrating than being stuck on the side of the road trying to cool off the fuel lines and pump so you can start the engine again.


If a pump is noisy then it's either a very cheap pump like to old Holley EFI pumps or you have a restricted return line.
V8s should run 3/8 inlet and 5/16 return. Limit the number of connections. The universal 3/8 brake lines work good and have flares on the ends.
Use rubber insulated adel clamps.


My $.02
 
New lines will undoubtedly have to wait 'tll spring. My hoist is out doors, and I cannot work "under" a car anymore. For now, most of the return is 3/8" EFI hose, tied beside the factory 5/16 feed tube. I'm getting less than 4 lbs return back pressure. The restriction is the 1/4" shortie tube I soldered into the tank for a vapor return. I'll obviously upgrade that this spring, too.

The unit is running OK out of the box except for WOT and high speed accel. I'll wait for the wideband stuff to get here, as well as the so called "Autotune" software, and by THEN I'm sure it'll be hit and miss for good days to drive, up here. I won't drive in more than a sprinkle of rain, certainly not heavy rain or when slick.

Maybe you can tell I'm somewhat jacked. "The big hump" for me was finally deciding to go "wideband" in they have evidently gone down some in price in the weeks since I first looked at 'em.

One problem "I think" is that the injectors are too large. I need to Google up how to ID them. This is, afterall, the largest bore TB Holleys sold with these systems. I'm going to try lowering the fuel pressure a couple of lbs and see what that does.

As I said, I don't intend to do much/ any programming until the WB stuff and the "Autotune" software gets here, because I'll be starting over with a completely different file, anyhow!!!!
 
67Dart273, I agree that Holley's $850 price for the wideband O2 option is outrageous. As you found, the Commander 950 can use the analog output signal from any wideband box. I got a used one for <$100 on ebay, but haven't installed.

Bill USN-1
Re EFI pump inlet, I used the factory 5/16" tube on my Newport. When I tested it, fuel pours from the tube into a bucket just due to gravity (once you fill the "up" siphon), and thru a "carb" type filter, so I saw no way that would restrict the pump, and it doesn't seem to. I have driven it many times in 110 F Sacramento weather and never had a problem. The pump does make a racket if it sucks air (low fuel sloshing in tank) and I don't hear that on hot days, so I doubt it ever vaporizes on the suction side. How much extra length do you think it is from under the rear seat to the engine bay? Pretty insignificant pressure drop. On my Dart, I plumbed a new 3/8" tube and filter from a new 3/8" sender just to be sure. It has a Walbro pump which circulates more volume than my 273 will ever need.

Just because people write things into manuals, doesn't make them true. I wonder if many of Holley's people even have degrees. I knew a person who worked at Boeing designing aircraft wiring and said the most technical person in the department had a forestry degree. One of my jobs was designing and simulating very complicated fuel controls for aircraft engines, so designing a fuel system for my cars doesn't stress me.
 
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