Arrrgh....

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Bill Dedman

Bill Dedman

bill dedman
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Spent the last TWO DAYS trying to get our new engine started, without ANY success.

We didn't install ANY of the turbo plumbing, and have a just the stock, freshy-rebuilt, 1-bbl carb on a stock /6 intake manifold, and are using a stock exhaust manifold, installed with all the stock hardware. A short exhaust system with a muffler completes the temporary installation.

The idea in doing all this was to have a trouble-free startup for our cam break-in.

Ha.... the best-laid plans, etc...:sad7:


Here's the problem; maybe somebody can figure it out and tell me what is going on; I can't stand another day of cranking with no start...

It's a .065"-overbored 225 motor (234 cubic inches) with forged pistons, an un-milled head and un-milled block deck... 9:1, measured compression with flat top pistons that are .167" down in the hole.

Stock stroke (4-1/8") crank, with 1.75"/1.5" valves


None of that has anyhing to do with why it won't start, though...

BIG battery (cranks fast,) excellent, new, mini-starter and the multimeter shows 12.64 volts at the + side of the coil) wired direct from the battery.

New spark plug wires and new stock heat range (Champion) plugs.

New magnetic pickup distributor, remanufactured from NAPA (nobody had a new one.... all re-manufactured.)

Used, but stock coil off a previously-running car.

Turn the key to "start," and....

Nothing... crank, crank, crank (this, on a brand-new cam that was degreed several times to ensure that it was in correctly.)

Pulled the coil off, and replaced it with a NEW one from NAPA.

Nothing.... crank,crank, crank.... still, no spark.

Pulled the distributor and replaced it withn a "points-style" distributor with new points and condenser....


Nothing.... crank, crank, crank...

It SOUNDS here, like the cam is not turning, but it has a brand new timing sprocket set and a new chain, with the splash "washer" installed correctly.

Obviously, there is no "make-break" signal gettting to the coil. To reiterate, the + side of the coil is wired DIRECTLY to the BATTERY hot side, and is showing 12+ volts throughout all of this.

I am stumped.

I'm afraid all this cranking at starting RPM is going to damage the cam, in spite of lots of ZDDP in the oil, and worn-out 318 valve springs on the valves.

Of course, once it's obviously not going to "hit" (fire), we stop canking, immediately, but still.... that can't be anything but BAD for that cam/lifter interface...

This is driving me nutz... and, Freddie.

Has anyone got ANY idea what could keep that signal from the distibutor that goes to the minus side of the coil, from reaching there? ALL wiring to the distributor and coil has been eliminated except for the HOT (12.4 volts from the battery) and the one wire that goes to the minus side of the coil from the points or magnetic pickup in the distributor.

ANY HELP WILL BE APPRECIATED...


We need to get this thing running... yesterday...](*,)
 
Ok, take a deep breath. I have done worse things to a new cam without any failures. If you slobbered it up with a decent moly assembly lube, things will be just fine.

Take the cap off of the distributor. turn the engine over with a wrench. Does the distributor turn?

If the distributor is turning, turn the engine to TDC o the compression stroke. Does the rotor point at #1?

If it is pointing at #1, turn the distributor in the advance direction to where the points open far enough to set the gap with a feeler gauge. That should leave you 3 to 5 degrees BTDC.

If the distributor turns, the cam is turning. If it is set on #1 @ TDC compression for #1 - it should fire when you try it for real - unless you look around on the bench and find 12 lifters / pushrods / rockers you forgot to install...

B.
 
bohica2xo said:
Ok, take a deep breath. I have done worse things to a new cam without any failures. If you slobbered it up with a decent moly assembly lube, things will be just fine.

Take the cap off of the distributor. turn the engine over with a wrench. Does the distributor turn?

If the distributor is turning, turn the engine to TDC o the compression stroke. Does the rotor point at #1?

If it is pointing at #1, turn the distributor in the advance direction to where the points open far enough to set the gap with a feeler gauge. That should leave you 3 to 5 degrees BTDC.

If the distributor turns, the cam is turning. If it is set on #1 @ TDC compression for #1 - it should fire when you try it for real - unless you look around on the bench and find 12 lifters / pushrods / rockers you forgot to install...

B.
Click to expand...


Okay, we never checked to see if the distributor was turning, but it's a new, freshly-ground cam, and the distributor drive gear on the bottom of the distributor LOOKED perfect, and one of them came out of a running car, so how could they be at fault; they both went in easily...

But, I'll print out your "to-do" list and take it with me, tomorrow.

Can't imagine how the distributor could NOT turn unless..... hmmmm... there IS a roll-pin that stakes the nylon drive gear onto the shaft.....

Maybe it's missing??? But, out of BOTH distributors???


Argghhhhh,....

The car is 35 miles away, but I'll be working on it tomorrow...

Thanks for the good advice; I'll have a report tomorrow night.
 
Double check your grounds...
Where do you have your battery ground attached to the block and the body,I hope....
Had a Hot-Rod that would fire when I let go of the key because the starter was using all available power and ground due to a bad ground strap motor to body.
You can not over ground it....
Just a shot in the dark.
Hope it starts and runs soon ,can not wait to see it broke in and spinning that turbo.
TXDart
 
Is the thing developing oil pressure? Even if ONE distributor had a problem, there's not much to go wrong with a "points" unit

You didn't forget to put the key in the crank/ cam sprocket, didja?
 
Have you physically checked for spark? Pulled a wire off at the plug and held it close to ground? I always just hold my finger on it and spin the engine. Aint gonna hurt you. have you physically checked to SEE fuel delivery? Looked into the carburetor and verified fuel squirt? It's only one of three things, Bill. No spark, no fuel, or no time.
 
After you,ve checked all of above,check to make sure your Neutral safety switch is grounded.Just a thought,has happened to me.Good luck.
 
dizzy properly installed? I did that once. 180 degrees backwards.. OOPS
 
Randomly throwing parts at it hoping you'll replace whatever's wrong along the way is NOT the way to go about this, all you're doing at this point is increasing variables, when you need to be eliminating them.

Like was stated above, you need three things for boom. Spark, Fuel, Compression. Check to make sure that you've got spark at all the plugs, check to make sure you've got good compression on all cylinders (that could point out a cam timing issue) and make sure the carb actually has gas.

99% of the time, it's something simple that's overlooked. Good luck out there!
 
Good luck Bill this is beyond me at this point, but I'm pulling for you. I can't wait to see this thing run. Hope you get it figured out.

-Jim
 
dart0571 said:
Good luck Bill this is beyond me at this point, but I'm pulling for you. I can't wait to see this thing run. Hope you get it figured out.

-Jim
Click to expand...


Thanks to all who responded; lots of good advice, there!

Things I have checked:

Fuel supply.... NEW mechanical pump with lots of gas coming out the accelerator pump squirter.... from a freshly-rebuilt carb.

Cam is turning; I have checked, re-checked and re-re checked the valve clearances, and lined up the TDC marking on the damper several times. I always check that both valves are "loose" (so that it ensures that the #1 cylinder is on the power stroke) when setting TDC... sio as not to be 180 degrees off...

It has 12.4 volts at the + terminal on the coil, wired directly from the + side of the battery, using ! (one) wire.

Two different distributors, one with points, properly gapped, and one NEW magnetic pickup electronic unit, both with solid connections to the minus side of the coil.

NEW plug wires, with NO spark coming through at any time, EVER... Not even a hint of a spark.

Rotor properly oriented on the shaft when initially set at TDC.

Ground is the only iffy thing.

I am going back down there this morning to delve further into the problem....

I am sure that since the coil has 12.4 volts being fed into it from the + terminal, and there's no hint of a spark, anywhere, at any time, the problem lies with the make/break signal from the distributor not ever getting to the coil.... from 2 different distributors.

Maybe that wire is bad.... on two different distributors?

Grounds will be examined and increased in number.

I REALLY appreciate all the good input and advice!!!!

I'll have a report, tonight, one way or another....

Doesn't help that the car is outside, and the forecast high is 98 degrees.... whew!!!
 
I would take out the dist. and work with it until I got spark ON THE BENCH.

FIRST and VERY important, You can NOT have a spark WITHOUT a good "condenser" (capacitor) in a points dist. Do NOT assume that "new" is good. In an emergency, you can substitute the radio noise suppression cap that is normally hung on the positive terminal of the coil.

Lay out clip leads, test lamp, battery, coil, dist. and a plug/ plug wire

Hook the dist. wire to coil neg, battery ground to dist ground, and lay out a clip from battery to coil positive.

So to be crystal clear, you have:

battery neg -- dist ground -- dist wire -- coil neg -- coil pos -- battery positive

Hook the plug / plug wire to the coil, and "clip" the ground of the plug to the coil.

Don't leave it hooked to the battery only long enough to make checks.

First, hook the coil to battery, and hook your test lamp from battery neg. to coil neg. With the cap off, rotate the dist. to be sure the points are opening/ closing, and you should be able to observe this on the lamp.

If this is happening, and no spark, it just about has to be either the plug, the wire, the coil, or the condenser.

If the points are NOT making/ breaking, it could be the points --somehow bad insulator/ broken, shorted against the case at the wire entrance, use your head.

OR bad condenser.
 
This has happened to me Bill, I went to NAPA picked up a new cap and rotor button and the rotor button was to short/or it was the cap was to tall, I know this sounds silly, but it did happen to me, I don't know why or what it was, but all this happened to my 63 Valiant I had a few years back.......... I removed the new cap and button and put my old one back on and it fired back up, I returned them.. Hard to believe this could happen but it did .
 
If you're going to run it with the points distributor, I'd put a ballast resistor back in the system or you'll fry the points and wire lead from the coil. You'll have to check with the manufacturer of the electronic setup to see what that requires. With a points distributor installed, rotate the engine untill the points are open. With a test light or meter, see if it has juice right at the contact on the arm of the points. If not, keep moving back upstream until you find juice. If you have electricity at the points, rotate the engine until the points are closed. Then with the coil secondary wire in the coil on one end, and the other end 1/4" from a good ground (block, head, inner fender) open the points with an insulated screwdriver. There should be a nice blue spark coming out of the coil wire every time you manually open the points. You can set the initial timing this way before you start the engine. When you rotate the crank, there should be a spark when the timing mark reaches the proper spot on the pointer.
 
you need ground to test the points dist on the bench, unless you like to get shocked, as in ground the distr to the batt ground or something.

I think you stabbed the distributor wrong.

with piston at tdc, set the distributor with the rotor just before no.1 cap terminal.
 
Slants are extremely fussy about the distributor installation. One tooth off, and you get exactly what you describe. I've sworn they were installed correctly, but when I moved it one tooth, it started immediately.
 
cudamark said:
If you're going to run it with the points distributor, I'd put a ballast resistor back in the system or you'll fry the points and wire lead from the coil. You'll have to check with the manufacturer of the electronic setup to see what that requires. With a points distributor installed, rotate the engine untill the points are open. With a test light or meter, see if it has juice right at the contact on the arm of the points. If not, keep moving back upstream until you find juice. If you have electricity at the points, rotate the engine until the points are closed. Then with the coil secondary wire in the coil on one end, and the other end 1/4" from a good ground (block, head, inner fender) open the points with an insulated screwdriver. There should be a nice blue spark coming out of the coil wire every time you manually open the points. You can set the initial timing this way before you start the engine. When you rotate the crank, there should be a spark when the timing mark reaches the proper spot on the pointer.
Click to expand...

That is some REALLY good advice, well-written and I comprehended every word.

I will print it out and try it, ver batim, the next time I work on the car. It may be a few days; it's too darn hot to do it, right now.:pale:

This points-type distributor is only going to be in the engine for the cam break in. Maybe 35 minutes running time at 2,500 rpm, and it will be replaced. Do you think I need to run the ballast resistor as part of this system, considering how short a time it's going to be in use at 12 volts???
 
GaryS said:
Slants are extremely fussy about the distributor installation. One tooth off, and you get exactly what you describe. I've sworn they were installed correctly, but when I moved it one tooth, it started immediately.
Click to expand...

Tried that... both ways... no luck, but hey, it could have been the problem...

Thanls for the suggestion!!!:colors:
 
GaryS said:
Slants are extremely fussy about the distributor installation. One tooth off, and you get exactly what you describe. I've sworn they were installed correctly, but when I moved it one tooth, it started immediately.
Click to expand...
Installing a distributor one tooth (or more) off, won't keep it from producing a spark.... it'll just be at the wrong time or wrong terminal. I'd use a ballast if it were me. In the start position, the ballast is bypassed, which is fine for a few seconds it normally takes to start the engine, but it's hard on the coil, points, and related wiring to use it continuously. I don't think adding a ballast will cure your current, no-spark problem, but it was just something you should do if you plan to run the engine any length of time.... like the initial cam break-in period.
 
cudamark said:
Installing a distributor one tooth (or more) off, won't keep it from producing a spark.... it'll just be at the wrong time or wrong terminal. I'd use a ballast if it were me. In the start position, the ballast is bypassed, which is fine for a few seconds it normally takes to start the engine, but it's hard on the coil, points, and related wiring to use it continuously. I don't think adding a ballast will cure your current, no-spark problem, but it was just something you should do if you plan to run the engine any length of time.... like the initial cam break-in period.
Click to expand...

This temporary "points type" ignition setup will only be in the engine long enough to break in the cam.... then, it will be replaced with a stock, magnetic-pulse distributor hooked to a coil getting its voltage from a ballast resistor.
 
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