best deal on a stroker kit???

[prodart340]

the boss said go ahead, so now I'm looking for a rotating assembly.8)looking at a k1 crank and rod combo with wiseco pro tru flat tops. Any insight would be greatly appreciated from those spinning a 416" up to around 6000 or so rpm. thanks in advance,Mike

 

[autoxcuda]

the boss said go ahead, so now I'm looking for a rotating assembly.8)looking at a k1 crank and rod combo with wiseco pro tru flat tops. Any insight would be greatly appreciated from those spinning a 416" up to around 6000 or so rpm. thanks in advance,Mike

Good question. I am considering one too. But I think you need to give some parameters of your engine and car.

Like do you have a cam or range of cams you are looking at? Or what HP or E.T. are you looking for? If it's E.T. list your complete chassis combo. And is it a strip, street, or combination? How much and how long do you drive it on the street?....

 

[POS Dakota]

the boss said go ahead, so now I'm looking for a rotating assembly.8)looking at a k1 crank and rod combo with wiseco pro tru flat tops. Any insight would be greatly appreciated from those spinning a 416" up to around 6000 or so rpm. thanks in advance,Mike

Give Member ou812 a PM and talk to him about it. He can handle whatever you need for you HIMSELF and make sure you reach your goal with only the things you need to safely do it, without all the stuff you DONT need.

 

[autoxcuda]

Give Member ou812 a PM and talk to him about it. He can handle whatever you need for you HIMSELF and make sure you reach your goal with only the things you need to safely do it, without all the stuff you DONT need.

Good idea. But I think I would like to hear about the goals/parameters and recomendation here on FABO also so we all can learn something.

 

[Brian Hafliger]

Good idea. But I think I would like to hear about the goals/parameters and recomendation here on FABO also so we all can learn something.

So what exactly are your goals/parameters? Is this for auto X?

 

[autoxcuda]

So what exactly are your goals/parameters? Is this for auto X?

Really road course and some autox. SCCA E-Street Prepared autox has "stock" cam and stock long block rules. The car is not really competitive in that rules system. But I can go have fun.

I drive the heck out of my car. I'll drive it to the grocery store and run errands in it. Beat on it. When I had a pro driver, drive it at Willow Spring a three years ago he ran the pan dry and I had to wait 30 minutes to get the lifter to stop clicking (stock oil pan). After that I took it back out for 3 more hours of thrashing on course. My skill level couldn't cavitate the oil and I wasn't forcing the trans to throttle downshift either. Then I drove it 80 miles home. Been to track days since then and probably 10K miles.

The P.O.S. that's in the Cuda now:
340 std bore original pistons, 10.25:1 comp advertised
340 X heads hardened seats
stock 340 exhaust manifolds
Weiand #8007 dual plane
.455 lift 268/272 MP cam
600 holley carb

Rear end is 3.23 but I run 24.5" diameter tires.
The future tires will be 25.7 dia front and rear 275/40/17 low treadwear.
There is a 4 speed or some sort of manual trans in the future too.

Troy Bray has got me thinking about getting a motor together. I was over at his house yesterday talking about it. My 340 in the car now is numbers matching and std original bore. I've beat the snot out of it since 1993 when I gave it a re-ring job. That was 60K miles ago.

So the thought is a 360 block because of the expense. Debating on Magnum or LA. Cheap roller lifters/cam with the Magnum could give me a little more HP with the same streetablity? Your opinions if it's worth it?

That XE285 Cammed 408 you built sounds neat. But I don't think it's as streetable as I need it to be? Your opinions? Troy has a XE268 in his sidepiped 340 T/A. I think I stand something a little more lumpier than that. I have full exhaust out the back. Sound does absolutely nothing at all for me. It could idle like a Cadillac for all I care. Not that it has to be that quiet, but I'm just not trying to impress somebody or myself with sound.

What I have to steal of other cars and off the shelf:
-360 .030 over allready running with 1.88 J heads in my Dart convertible
-E-brock RPM manifold
-spitfire headers
-Munsiger 3000 stall converter for the 360 in my Dart
-One P5007086 Magnum cly head 1.920/1.625. Just ONE.

I assume some things I need to go with this build:
-TTI headers for the ground clearance and I'm worried that will be enough. My K-member is 5" off the ground.
-better converter, possibly the one in my Dart
-new and different carb
-like the idea of lighter aluminum heads
-baffled oil pan. The Mopar road race group is working with Canton on a road race pan.

I'm sort of envisioning 1HP/CID? Don't know if that fits my constraints? Your opinions would be appreciated.

From those guys on the small block stroker posts on Moparts, that equats to some sort of RV or truck motor. I guess anything without 250 duration @50 and .550 lift is a grandma motor territory?? I see those motor posts a little fustrating personally.

Edit: sorry if I wrote too much.

 

[dusterdoug]

http://www.rpmmachine.com/scat-strokerkit-chrysler-340to416-750hp.html

I just bought one from RPM Machine as they were the best price I could find. Kit included an Eagle forged crank (SCAT crank was backordered), SCAT I beam rods and KB744 forged pistons. Quality moly rings and bearings, too.

That "rated to 750HP" crap is hokey and a STRETCH to say the least, but most of us know better...

For the price, it works if you're just buying the parts like we did and had a local shop that we trust do the balancing. I'd be chicken to try a balance job from any of those big mail order places...

BUT, someone like Brian could hook you up with VERY WELL balanced, ready to drop in kit that may be more to your liking...

 

[mopardude318]

This is my 408build...The short block was built by Hughes Engines which consists of a Mopar Performance cast crank (better than the Eagle cast crank), Scat H-beam rods, and KB Forged 10:1 pistons, internally balanced. I used a milodon gear drive to handle the timing duties. (and because I liked the whine noise it makes) The bottom end was buttoned up with a HV Melling oil pump and a 7 qt moroso oil pan with a built in windage tray.

I also sent my Edelbrock heads to Hughes Engines to get the stage 3 porting with 208 intake valves, new seats and springs to match my cam. The cam is a custom Hughes grind hyd. roller 252/258 deg. duration @ .050" and 576/576 int/exh lift @ .050.
I am also using the Hughes 1.6 aluminum roller rockers. The intake is a Victor 340 ported and gasket matched to the heads, (done by Hughes) and I have a 750 mighty demon carb. I am using an electric CSR water pump, so that probably freed up a few horsepower, and also used the TTI 1 5/8 1 3/4 headers...I think that's pretty much it....It was actually pretty expensive for me to build this engine and man I wish I would have went big block because I know I would have had 100 more horsepower and torque...for the money I spent on this engine..( i should have at least used Indy heads and top end package, i know I would have touched the 580 HP/TQ mark...) and yes, its a 91 octane pump gas engine..

Maybe next time I will have Brain at IMM build me the engine..

 

[autoxcuda]

This is my 408build...clip....It was actually pretty expensive for me to build this engine and man I wish I would have went big block because I know I would have had 100 more horsepower and torque...for the money I spent on this engine..( i should have at least used Indy heads and top end package, i know I would have touched the 580 HP/TQ mark...) and yes, its a 91 octane pump gas engine..

Maybe next time I will have Brian at IMM build me the engine..

I don't have the budget for that kind of HP. There's a lot of expensive parts that need to support that. I'd take that extra money and work on carrying speed out of a corner and putting what HP I have to the ground.

Any ideas for good valued 1HP/cid and 425 HP for road course oriented 408??

 

[Brian Hafliger]

I don't have the budget for that kind of HP. There's a lot of expensive parts that need to support that. I'd take that extra money and work on carrying speed out of a corner and putting what HP I have to the ground.

Any ideas for good valued 1HP/cid and 425 HP for road course oriented 408??

If you go the magnum route, and use the right cam ( I would spec something custom for road course)with the RHS heads I think you'll see more like 425-440HP.
Alot depends on the rest of the combo too, like headers, carb, intake...

I would make the engine hit hard but not too hard off the corner and pull nice and smooth with just enough over run for the straight's. If your worried about weight then I'd use eddy heads with some mild port work because OOTB the ports are lazy and don't flow all that great. You can gain alot with 400.00 worth of porting.
The Eddy magnum heads with the magnum short block and hyd roller cam and your looking at an easy 460HP from 9.5:1
Brian

 

[autoxcuda]

If you go the magnum route, and use the right cam ( I would spec something custom for road course)with the RHS heads I think you'll see more like 425-440HP.
Alot depends on the rest of the combo too, like headers, carb, intake...

Sounds like you would lean toward a magnum 360? Why?

-Are TTI's ok?,
-Do I need some super trick carb to not hurt the combo?
-E-brock RPM intake? or Air Gap intake? other? I have an RPM

I would make the engine hit hard but not too hard off the corner and pull nice and smooth with just enough over run for the straight's. If your worried about weight then I'd use eddy heads with some mild port work because OOTB the ports are lazy and don't flow all that great. You can gain alot with 400.00 worth of porting.
The Eddy magnum heads with the magnum short block and hyd roller cam and your looking at an easy 460HP from 9.5:1
Brian

How's something like that idle down to?

What's a rough idea of duration and lift would you be looking at? Is that going to need stiff valve springs? Expensive valve train?

Could there be some parts savings with a little tamer 400 hp 408 cube motor?

 

[AndyF]

Lots of good reasons to run the Magnum setup for a track motor. Better gasket technology on valve covers, oil pans, etc. Better valvetrain setup, low cost hyd roller, good cylinder head design, etc. A 5.9 Magnum with a 4.00 or 4.125 crankshaft would make a great track motor. Only hitch would be the oil pan because nobody seems to offer one for the Magnum but that shouldn't be too hard to fix.

 

[moper]

Auto, try to remember most guys are not racing autox and want the romp and sound... To each their own. When are you planning to go manual? What rpm range does it live at while you're driving it right now? What is the diameter of the new tires/wheel package and when are they going on it? If it was me and this was a long term, needs to be stable, and pull well from 3K to 6500, I would go with a custom (read mild) street solid roller cam in the LA block. Easy to get, cost wise the least expensive, and the easiest to tweak and experiment with as your driving improves.

 

[autoxcuda]

Auto, try to remember most guys are not racing autox and want the romp and sound... To each their own. When are you planning to go manual? What rpm range does it live at while you're driving it right now? What is the diameter of the new tires/wheel package and when are they going on it? If it was me and this was a long term, needs to be stable, and pull well from 3K to 6500, I would go with a custom (read mild) street solid roller cam in the LA block. Easy to get, cost wise the least expensive, and the easiest to tweak and experiment with as your driving improves.

I'll go manual when I have more money. Maybe a couple of years. I'd build it with that totally in mind.

Right now I cruise down the hwy from 3500-3800 rpm depending how much of a hurry I'm in. 70-80 mph in the fast lane. Hit about 5000-5300 rpm at Willow Springs now. I try to be a little easy on the motor past that and I need more brake.

The tires that are going on it are 25.7" diameter. Right now they are 24.5" diameter.

Why LA over Magnum? I thought the LA roller lifter conversion was expensive.

Would a comp XE268 range in a 408 with E-brock aluminum head be detonation prone and overly mild? The compression would have to come down I suspect. What HP with that net out?

Or would a something in the range of a XE275 not choke it and a better match.

 

[kielbasa]

I am curious to the answer of those questions, as I'm still fuzzy on the LA vs Magnum roller cam thing....
And what are the disadvantages of a solid roller?
And how mild of a cam can you go before these engines aren't pump gas friendly anymore with approx 10:1 compression (assuming .040" quench)?

 

[Brian Hafliger]

Sounds like you would lean toward a magnum 360? Why?

-Are TTI's ok?,
-Do I need some super trick carb to not hurt the combo?
-E-brock RPM intake? or Air Gap intake? other? I have an RPM



How's something like that idle down to?

What's a rough idea of duration and lift would you be looking at? Is that going to need stiff valve springs? Expensive valve train?

Could there be some parts savings with a little tamer 400 hp 408 cube motor?

Without knowing all the components it's impossible to answer those questions.
I did a 340 road course engine a few years ago, and this guy was on a TIGHT budget!

We used his stock heads, but went chevy valves and some light bowl work. Double springs for a solid cam (wanted to be able to rev it without issue).
Compression was about 9.4:1 pump gas deal. KB pistons, stock rods, stock crank.
Had an old LD intake, 750 holley DP modified fuel bowls, and cheapo depot 1 5/8 headers.
We did some minor oiling mods, and ran a custom ultradyne cam that was something like 228-242 @.050 on a 105lca and .550 lift with 1.5 rockers. It hit really hard at about 2700rpm and pulled nicely to 7000rpm and he loved it.

So with a 4" crank, you'd have to really de-tune the build to keep the HP low. If you run low compression, stock heads and a very mild cam then I'd say yes 400-410HP would be about right. Maybe even less...not sure.
Most of my customers are looking at more HP not less!!

I know you could buy KB pistons, with the quench dome on them, use stock heads, stock rods and a 4" crank and save a ton of $$$ but I don't know how reliable that combo would be if pushed hard. Probably get some years out of it which would be OK for most guys.
Use a hyd. FT cam to keep cost down, and have fun!!
Brian

 

[EL5DEMON340]

i wouldn't build a 400 + inch motor with nice heads & TTI's then choke it with a small cam and carb. just a good flat tappet cam with around .248 to .255 @.050 intake, and a carb that flows a true 800+ cfm will give you more bottom end than the tires will hold

 

[moper]

Right now I cruise down the hwy from 3500-3800 rpm depending how much of a hurry I'm in. 70-80 mph in the fast lane. Hit about 5000-5300 rpm at Willow Springs now. I try to be a little easy on the motor past that and I need more brake.
But once you have power and tire, won't brake follow? It's all about you and the car evolving as performance increases. Add power, you need tire. Add tire, you need brake...

The tires that are going on it are 25.7" diameter. Right now they are 24.5" diameter.
That changes the effective ratio a little and lowers the rpms by about 200 give or take.

Why LA over Magnum? I thought the LA roller lifter conversion was expensive.
LA vs Magnum for me would only apply to the head choices. The conversions are about $300 more than starting with a roller block due to the ability of the roller block to use lifters that are $150/set. But IMO, things like rocker stability, longevity, and availability and ease of possible other options for ratios and intakes to me far outweigh the $300. I'd run a mild solid roller. I have one in CA with thousands of miles on it at the 530hp level. I'd use something smaller for yours but that's where I'd be steering you. IMO, you can go a couple ways. Build budget now with the thought of replacing the entire package later as the chassis evolves past the current power level to meet the revised one. Or build one now that has some adjustability and growth in it so after the chassis and your skills evolve, you are a simple cam/intake/carb swap away from additional power. Trying to fit a low budget restriction within that "have room to grow" simply doesnt work well for me. The difference between a low budget build and something nicer can be as close as $900 with these builds. that's 16% of a $5500 budget build. If a manual trans is in the future, along with screaming down long straights, the super budget stuff should not be a part of this build.

Would a comp XE268 range in a 408 with E-brock aluminum head be detonation prone and overly mild? The compression would have to come down I suspect. What HP with that net out?
The 268 is meant to make cylinder pressure with strokes 18% shorter than the 4" arm. In terms of mild, I'd call that overly for what you want. It's 224°@.050. I'd aim for 240° there for a nice idle and good power from 2K up to redline. that would be the XE284H.

 

[autoxcuda]

Without knowing all the components it's impossible to answer those questions.
I did a 340 road course engine a few years ago, and this guy was on a TIGHT budget!

We used his stock heads, but went chevy valves and some light bowl work. Double springs for a solid cam (wanted to be able to rev it without issue).
Compression was about 9.4:1 pump gas deal. KB pistons, stock rods, stock crank.

For a 400-425 HP, are stock bowl ported/gasket matched 2.02 X heads sufficient?

It seems these low cost stoker kits make it economical to do a stroker. Plus, my thinking is that you can make HP at a lower RPM with a stroker which is easier on valvetrain especially continued higer RPM like on a road course.

So with a 4" crank, you'd have to really de-tune the build to keep the HP low. If you run low compression, stock heads and a very mild cam then I'd say yes 400-410HP would be about right. Maybe even less...not sure.
Most of my customers are looking at more HP not less!!

What kind of mild? Mild to a guy who builds race motors all day or mild to someone driving thier car in stop and go traffic over the 405 Sepulveda Pass at 5pm after work?

My chassis is still a street car. And it's going to always have limitations on not being a full-on race car.

Sure someone could build a 700+hp all aluminum blown Hemi. But in my opinion it needs a tube frame road race chasis ultilize it. I see it with these mega motor "proturing" cars. 3800 lbs cars with 225 wide front tires? Makes as much sense to me as putting a 8" slick behind a Funny Car.

I know you could buy KB pistons, with the quench dome on them, use stock heads, stock rods and a 4" crank and save a ton of $$$ but I don't know how reliable that combo would be if pushed hard. Probably get some years out of it which would be OK for most guys.
Use a hyd. FT cam to keep cost down, and have fun!!
Brian

Because of the KB pistons and stock rods? I thought aftermarket rods come with the kits.

 

[dusterdoug]

Because of the KB pistons and stock rods? I thought aftermarket rods come with the kits.

I think he meant buying the crank and pistons NOT in kit form and using stock rods to keep the cost down.

Wouldn't do it though...

 

[Brian Hafliger]

OK...I don't just build racing engines all day. Infact, I have a nack for building good performing street engines that make power and deliver good manners. But you have to use the right components to acheive your goals.

If you use too small of a cam you could kill the rpm range by 1000rpm! It costs no more money to use the correct size cam than the wrong cam.

If you only want 400Hp, you can use a 360 and get that. If all you want is low rpm tq and don't care about any power past say 5000rpm, then yeah you can use a small cam but on the track you'll get smoked. You have to be realistic about the rpm range just as much as the hp goals or budget.
I'm not saying you need a 6000rpm engine, but make sure you don't cut your legs off by using too small of a cam or worse combining parts that don't work together.
If you use a small cam, you can't have too much compression either. And a track car is easy to get too much compression in and have heating issues.
Just like our diet, engines need moderation....too much of anything can cause problems.

Yes OEM heads can work for your application, you bet. They'll support near 400HP with just a good valve job, some mild bowl blending and pushrod pinch porting.
But for a track car, I would not use a catalog cam...too many variables to consider.
Yes I did say you could use stock rods with a 4" crank...you don't HAVE to buy a stroker kit. But just as was said, I would use the I beams and forged piston for a car that was going to be used for dual purpose road coarse racing and street driving.

 

[autoxcuda]

OK...I don't just build racing engines all day. Infact, I have a nack for building good performing street engines that make power and deliver good manners. But you have to use the right components to acheive your goals.

I realize that Brian. I'm just giving you a hard time. :-D You built a nice street 360 for Jon? the young guy with the Duster. He seems more than happy.

If you use too small of a cam you could kill the rpm range by 1000rpm! It costs no more money to use the correct size cam than the wrong cam.

If you only want 400Hp, you can use a 360 and get that. If all you want is low rpm tq and don't care about any power past say 5000rpm, then yeah you can use a small cam but on the track you'll get smoked. You have to be realistic about the rpm range just as much as the hp goals or budget.
I'm not saying you need a 6000rpm engine, but make sure you don't cut your legs off by using too small of a cam or worse combining parts that don't work together.
If you use a small cam, you can't have too much compression either. And a track car is easy to get too much compression in and have heating issues.

Yes, those track days go from 8am to 5pm and one 15 min session every hour And can be hot out there. Right now with the current slug motor I've never have overheating issues on the street or even during long trips across country. BUT at the track last time was getting hot and was starting to ping. I just got the timing light out and retarded it to get through the day.

These are just track days. Not what I would consider real competition. To me, competition is where a group of cars has similar set standard rules and has some sort of way to enforce those. IMHO, just because a drag car run 9.00 doesn't mean it's a race car.

A Pure Stock at Iwindale Speedway is more race car than the $30K motored magazine build. We currently run sort of anemic 400-ish HP ZZ1 crate motors in the Late Model I work on. Still a race.

Just like our diet, engines need moderation....too much of anything can cause problems.

Yes OEM heads can work for your application, you bet. They'll support near 400HP with just a good valve job, some mild bowl blending and pushrod pinch porting.
But for a track car, I would not use a catalog cam...too many variables to consider.
Yes I did say you could use stock rods with a 4" crank...you don't HAVE to buy a stroker kit. But just as was said, I would use the I beams and forged piston for a car that was going to be used for dual purpose road coarse racing and street driving.

That's why I listed what parts/motors I currently have on hand. Maybe I have some parts that are perfectly suitable now. And I have more budget for better quality other parts like forged crank, pistons than I orginally thought. Or maybe not. One thing I'm worried about the costs of a rocker arm setup.

I'm trying to map out and focus on the components I need and don't need. Then aquire them.

 

[POS Dakota]

Worried about the cost of a rocker arm setup?
There are rocker arm setups in magnum and LA flavor that very low cost and don't suck to boot.
I really wouldnt sweat that...I'm suprised it's even a concern. lol

 

[moper]

"These are just track days. Not what I would consider real competition. To me, competition is where a group of cars has similar set standard rules and has some sort of way to enforce those. IMHO, just because a drag car run 9.00 doesn't mean it's a race car."

This I can understand. However it does have to be built to the same level as that race car, to perform with it. Which was my point before. And if that 9.00 car was starting at 13s with a budget, realizing the wholecar will need upgrading, while it doesnt make sense to build that 9.0 bullet, it does make sense to add the parts that the 10.0s and 9.0 engines should share. I also agree with Brian that if your goal is to replace what you have at 400hp, don't waste cash on a 4" crank setup.

 

[autoxcuda]

I also agree with Brian that if your goal is to replace what you have at 400hp, don't waste cash on a 4" crank setup.

The idea I had was to get more streetablity out of the same HP with the stroker. I thought the crank is about the only difference in price. The rods cost nearly the same as resizing your old ones, pistons were a wash....

I'm worried about being easy on the equiptment too. Not beating on valvetrain and seats.