Big Blocks and Handling

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ramcharger

ramcharger

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I keep reading about how poorly an A body handles once a big block is transplanted. Is this true? Is the car that far out of balance that not much can be done? What if a heavy Dana 60 is used, will that help to balance the F/R weight issues?
 
put some 1" or 1 1/8" bars up front and front and rear sway bars and i'll bet it surprises a few people.
 
Not to mention aluminum heads which most guys use anyways,cuts 50lbs off the front. And relocating the battery to the trunk shaves another 50. Mopars big block aint that much heavier than thier sb,and using tricks like mentioned should keep ride quality. And those pro touring bars are the hot ticket for anyone who doesnt drag race every weekend.

I have actually been rethinking my build because of all the twisty highways,plus the mountainous terrain here.Probably means I'd be better off building a pro touring type of car.
 
If you run the big block torsion bars and a sway bar set up with good shocks. it will handle pretty good.
 
Had a '68 383 Dart, a '69 440 Dart, and a '68 Hemi Dart. The Hemi was the bee's knees in a straight line which was just fine. It may have handled better with sway bars, decent front tires instead of the little drag race skinnies, street shocks, and a differential instead of a spool. The '69 was a "street" car but it had 2" primary fenderwell headers which limited the amount of steering lock available, not to mention the 6.95X13 tires needed to get the tires off the headers some of the time. It was OK as long as you didn't get in a hurry when the road got crooked. Of the 3, the '68 383 was the best handling, but it was limited and by A body standards was a nose heavy pig. It should be fairly good with modern tires but the best we had at the time was E70X14 Polyglas bias plies. Once you got the hang of throttle induced oversteer, it would hustle along pretty good. Biggest gripe I had with it was the fact that the front suspension was so stiff it was almost nonexistent. With some judicious weight moving, decent tires, good shocks, sway bars, and power steering, a big block would be a livable car. There is no rush quite like nailing the throttle on a big block A body. Almost made the shortcomings acceptable. Almost. If I ever get the itch for another one it will have an aluminum block and heads. That should give me small block handling with the big block throttle. :-D:-D:-D
 
ramcharger said:
I keep reading about how poorly an A body handles once a big block is transplanted. Is this true? Is the car that far out of balance that not much can be done? What if a heavy Dana 60 is used, will that help to balance the F/R weight issues?
Click to expand...

I don't really buy into the handling problem stories Joe. I guess if you took a /6 demon and plopped in a 440/727 and made no suspension or brake changes it would handle like a pig. Anyone that stops there is just kidding himself. You have to upsize the torsion bars, add a front stabilizer bar (at the least), front disc brakes definetely not drums and good shocks. After doing all that I doubt very much the common "Joe" would be able to tell the difference. With the addition of headers, aluminum intake, aluminum water pump, fiberglass hood and of course aluminum heads the front ends going to lighter than if you did nothing and had a stock 340 under the hood. With the exception of the heads I've done all that and easily shed 100 lbs off the front end and the Demon handles great.:-D
 
2 cars with equal mods, one with a big block and one with a small block, that small block car will handle better (simple matter of weight over the front end).

I have had both big and small block cars. I never minded the feel of a big block up front. Pay attention to wheel/tire selection and suspension tuning and both can be nice on the road.
 
This was the question.

"I keep reading about how poorly an A body handles once a big block is transplanted. Is this true? Is the car that far out of balance that not much can be done?"


My reply for this…."I keep reading about how poorly an A body handles once a big block is transplanted. Is this true?"…...was………

"2 cars with equal mods, one with a big block and one with a small block, that small block car will handle better (simple matter of weight over the front end)."

My reply for this……"Is the car that far out of balance that not much can be done?"…...was………

"Pay attention to wheel/tire selection and suspension tuning and both can be nice on the road."

I directly answered his questions……

Yes, once you transplant a big block in your car it will handle worse but things can be done to recover that lost handling.
 
I put 40,000 miles on a factory 440 A-body. As far as handling, it was no slot car, but it still drove fine. Oversteer is evident when you push the car, it tends to switch quickly from under to over. However, with judicious throttle you can have some fun with it, and once the car is pointed correctly, cant beat the torque. The only thing was the armstrong steering that made parallel parking enjoyable. I'm sure a rear sway bar would keep it more level while cornering, but never had one, so can't say how much it would help.
 
I've driven a crappy handling 440 Dart, but it was slammed on the ground, /6 torsions, no sway bar, and 90/10 shocks. I've driven poor handling small block B-bodies, and decent handling 440 B-bodies. If weight's your concern, A-bodies can weigh more than some big block B-bodies. We're only talking about 100 pounds from BB to SB, and there's a lot that can weigh much more than that. Considering you can use aluminum parts on a BB, I don't think there's much to worry about. Here are some numbers:

Part....................Weight savings
aluminum heads..........58#
intake..................25#
water pump & housing....15#
headers.................25#
mini starter.............7#
Total savings:.........130#

Manual steering is 37# lighter than power, and a 727 is 75# lighter than an A-833, and who knows how much A/C weighs. Small blocks weigh the same as a slant 6, and the B motors are 95# more than that, so a manual slant 6 or small block with power steering and A/C (guess 60# for that) can weigh 200# more than a 383 or 528 A/T. Relocate the battery, and that's a 50# shift from front to back, so that small block could weigh 300# more up front than your /6 or small block pig.

Here are some real numbers from one of my cars:

'64 GT Dart, 273/904, manual steering and brakes with AC and about 1/3 tank of gas.
Without me
FL:932 FR:960
RL:698 RR:672

1892 front / 1370 rear
3262 total
58% front 42% rear

If I swapped in a big block, with the lighter parts, ditched the A/C, and moved the battery, I end up with this:

1747 front / 1420 rear
3167 total
55% front 45% rear

Less weight, and better front to rear weight ratio.
 
If you are willing to do the work and spend the money to swap out lighter and better parts you can have a really great BB a-body. I personally like the sb's... And I'll be doing all the lightweight stuff for it so it will be lighter still.

As for the heavy dana 60 to balance it out. That isn't really a good Idea.. The rear axle is unsprung weight whereas what you need to worry about is sprung weight. The heavy unsprung weight would actually hurt rather than help. Follow the tips above and you probably won't even notice a difference in handling and probably have an improvement.
 
Great thread.....I find this stuff interesting! I would say that the Dana rear end isn't gonna help anything since it's unsprung weight, but the relocated battery is an easy "gimme" in the weights and balances dep't, as well as all the aluminum components that were mentioned. I just removed a factory A/C setup from a '67 Barracuda yesterday......my gawd, just that compressor and bracketry is insanely heavy. I'm betting a SB with factory A/C is about as heavy as a BB without it......(and maybe an aluminum intake and aluminum water pump/front cover) It's gotta be close!!!
 
needsaresto said:
Not to mention aluminum heads which most guys use anyways,cuts 50lbs off the front. And relocating the battery to the trunk shaves another 50. Mopars big block aint that much heavier than thier sb,and using tricks like mentioned should keep ride quality. And those pro touring bars are the hot ticket for anyone who doesnt drag race every weekend.

I have actually been rethinking my build because of all the twisty highways,plus the mountainous terrain here.Probably means I'd be better off building a pro touring type of car.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much my plan too. A few trips to the strip for a baseline and then I just want to enjoy it. The mountains here have some serious twisties. It will be a "stealth" build of sorts.

demon seed said:
I don't really buy into the handling problem stories Joe. I guess if you took a /6 demon and plopped in a 440/727 and made no suspension or brake changes it would handle like a pig. Anyone that stops there is just kidding himself. You have to upsize the torsion bars, add a front stabilizer bar (at the least), front disc brakes definetely not drums and good shocks. After doing all that I doubt very much the common "Joe" would be able to tell the difference. With the addition of headers, aluminum intake, aluminum water pump, fiberglass hood and of course aluminum heads the front ends going to lighter than if you did nothing and had a stock 340 under the hood. With the exception of the heads I've done all that and easily shed 100 lbs off the front end and the Demon handles great.:-D
Click to expand...

Thanks Terry and thanks to everyone who answered. 4 wheel disc brakes are part of the plan as are aluminum heads and some fiberglass parts. Front and real stabilizers, and some FF parts on the front end too as well as some K frame mods to help handling and of course, some really good shocks and stiffer torsions as joe mentioned.

375inStroke said:
I've driven a crappy handling 440 Dart, but it was slammed on the ground, /6 torsions, no sway bar, and 90/10 shocks. I've driven poor handling small block B-bodies, and decent handling 440 B-bodies. If weight's your concern, A-bodies can weigh more than some big block B-bodies. We're only talking about 100 pounds from BB to SB, and there's a lot that can weigh much more than that. Considering you can use aluminum parts on a BB, I don't think there's much to worry about. Here are some numbers:

Part....................Weight savings
aluminum heads..........58#
intake..................25#
water pump & housing....15#
headers.................25#
mini starter.............7#
Total savings:.........130#

Manual steering is 37# lighter than power, and a 727 is 75# lighter than an A-833, and who knows how much A/C weighs. Small blocks weigh the same as a slant 6, and the B motors are 95# more than that, so a manual slant 6 or small block with power steering and A/C (guess 60# for that) can weigh 200# more than a 383 or 528 A/T. Relocate the battery, and that's a 50# shift from front to back, so that small block could weigh 300# more up front than your /6 or small block pig.

Here are some real numbers from one of my cars:

'64 GT Dart, 273/904, manual steering and brakes with AC and about 1/3 tank of gas.
Without me
FL:932 FR:960
RL:698 RR:672

1892 front / 1370 rear
3262 total
58% front 42% rear

If I swapped in a big block, with the lighter parts, ditched the A/C, and moved the battery, I end up with this:

1747 front / 1420 rear
3167 total
55% front 45% rear

Less weight, and better front to rear weight ratio.
Click to expand...

Excellent information! No air and manual steering is also the plan.
 
As mentioned ,aluminum and fibreglass are your friends! I figure I can shave 300 lbs easily without loosing function. Im going with a B engine,aluminum heads,fibreglass nose relocated battery etc.

One iten that is quite heavy and overlooked is the window regulator. In a hardtop 2 dr Dart,there are 4 of these suckers. Ditching them and going with a simple pull strap and snap system is another 80 lb's easily.
 
@cudavert, did you stick that A/C stuff on a bathroom scale or something. I underestimated 60#, but that cast iron pump, lead condenser and evaporator, along with the lines, and brackets, has got to be near 100lbs.
 
needsaresto said:
One item that is quite heavy and overlooked is the window regulator. In a hardtop 2 dr Dart,there are 4 of these suckers. Ditching them and going with a simple pull strap and snap system is another 80 lb's easily.
Click to expand...

I've seen at least the rears removed. Not too much functionality eliminated.
 
It can be done and done easily. All iron 383 (except intake), four speed, alum radiator and ALL-STEEL body (oh, and it handles well without the huge tires, too):

1384045803_96e126c954_o.jpg
 
I think in the past you had limitations due to header choices and motor plates, and brakes, plus, the majority of "swappers" were doing it to drag race. Now with the cost of doing the swap overall reduced and the availability of parts so you can have good bars, and a sway bar, and lighter parts, and a turning radius of less than 45'... it's turned a page. I dont think there's too much difference now that can't be overcome with the right catalog.
 
moper is right. The other factor in my son's car is that folks would be amazed at how little we actually spent to build it and race it. If we had one limitation it was horsepower as we built a good handling street car that he wanted to autocross. We had a ~400hp big block in a 3,400lb car going against ~500hp small blocks in 2,700lb cars that were also physically smaller (first gen Mustangs). We still held our own and due to number of events, won the CP class for the season in the local SCCA chapter. A stock oiling system is what eventually doomed this effort (i.e. spun rod bearings from lack of oil in the corners).
 
Having owned and driven an Original 383 68 cuda for decades they handle just fine with the factory set up, 15/16 T Bars and 15/16 Front Sway bar. You still can't beat physics as others have said, all other things being equal. It is no slouch either. Automatic trans, no air, manual steering, front manual KH disc brakes, original exhaust manifolds and dual exhaust, and wide performance radials all around.
 
Jim Lusk said:
It can be done and done easily. All iron 383 (except intake), four speed, alum radiator and ALL-STEEL body (oh, and it handles well without the huge tires, too):

1384045803_96e126c954_o.jpg
Click to expand...

moper said:
I think in the past you had limitations due to header choices and motor plates, and brakes, plus, the majority of "swappers" were doing it to drag race. Now with the cost of doing the swap overall reduced and the availability of parts so you can have good bars, and a sway bar, and lighter parts, and a turning radius of less than 45'... it's turned a page. I dont think there's too much difference now that can't be overcome with the right catalog.
Click to expand...

Jim Lusk said:
moper is right. The other factor in my son's car is that folks would be amazed at how little we actually spent to build it and race it. If we had one limitation it was horsepower as we built a good handling street car that he wanted to autocross. We had a ~400hp big block in a 3,400lb car going against ~500hp small blocks in 2,700lb cars that were also physically smaller (first gen Mustangs). We still held our own and due to number of events, won the CP class for the season in the local SCCA chapter. A stock oiling system is what eventually doomed this effort (i.e. spun rod bearings from lack of oil in the corners).
Click to expand...

Excellent information again from everyone and thank you all! :cheers: I was really debating on going stroker small block due to wheel and tire fitment issues with B headers. I was thinking of 235 or 245/50-16 fronts and 255/50-16 rears on custom steel cop car wheels.

Jim Lusk,

Just curious, what headers are you running?
 
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